Lue Map

[Springfield]

Hello Patrick

The problem I have with the "105 degree" is it did not technically exist until an international agreement based on the longitude of Greenwich mean time. In fact I think the international agreement was brokered in New York in 1884. Before that each country adopted there own times zones for longitude. Spanish was long gone from the United States before this 105 longitude existed.

So I cannot see the relevance of these alluded Spanish makers being connected with actual 105 degree longitude. Another Spanish longitude perhaps? But To what? Border markers?

Crow

Crow, I think Patrick must have been referring to 'latitude' in his previous post - an observation that was accurately determined in the time period. Longitude, no matter where the prime meridian was located, was not possible to calculate with the technology available in the 1500's - even Columbus was 500 to 1,000 miles in error when he tried.

It's always been my opinion that the LUE map was created ca 1930's. Of course, I could be wrong.

Patrick, I'm interested in the mid-1500's mining you mentioned. Can you elaborate about where you heard about it? There are also rumors about a New Mexico mining operation carried out by 'Europeans' 1540 thru 1545.

 

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[PatrickD]

Hi Crow,

Good point. I really couldn't say what the Spanish referred to as Latitude in the mid 1500s. But, The Mercador lines represented on maps and their associated latitudinal reference align with that location using celestial navigation. Perhaps it was another type of location reference. Maybe it is like a street name being changed over time. A rose by any other name is still a rose (Billy Shakespeare).

The locations that have been discovered were all along what is now the 105th. That is why the 105 is referenced so much in the older publications. It is a current reference to an old location indicator.

From my first hand experience, when following the map quadrant with the eye and using a triangulation method using Polaris, the map points there. The other quadrants are more granular location indicators. The locations already found are there and the sealed location I found is there. I don't know a better way to reference the location but would welcome a more era-appropriate term for it.

Out of all the treasure 'legends' out there, this is the only where I have found a site where the map points. It isn't some vague reference to a discovery that happened in history like with so many treasure references. I actually found a sealed cache site in one location where the map points and that is convincing and undeniable enough for me. How else would one draw the connection from where the map locates to what is found? I really don't have a better alternate way so perhaps it is best if I just refrain from posting about it.

I would also welcome any other thoughts from fellow 'Ancient Treasure Theorists' as long as they could get close to an actual location that one could find. (I couldn't resist the like-kind reference to the terminology used on Ancient Aliens show regarding ancient alien theorists.) The only caveat is that the alternate proposed theory must align to documented historic references.

Wouldn't it be rich if I was totally wrong using Karl Von Mueller's, and my fathers, research was an incorrect starting point and I just got lucky and stumbled across a sealed location with the Spanish carvings around it. Haha. That would be poetic humor.

Patrick

 

[PatrickD]

Hi Springfield,

Glad to help. It is in the research regarding Fray de la Cruz.

Patrick

 

[Crow]

Hello Patrick

I must conress I have enjoyed the posts about the Lue although I think I more confused before I started. It seems your making a radical break from you father and Carls theory at least.

I understand there is some things you cannot share on a public forum. It is normal to expect to keep some of your cards to yourself. One thing please tell this old drunken beach bum of a pirate who was Fray De La Cruz?

Crow

 

[PatrickD]

Hi Crow,

True, I am reluctant to post the more indepth information on a public forum. I don't mind sharing stuff, especially with people on this board since we are all like minded treasure hunting theorists.

Here is a site I found on the Lost Spanish Mine that details some of the information better. It will tell you some about the good Fray.

The Lost Spanish Mine of Culebra Peak

Patrick

 

[Crow]

Hello Patrick

Thanks for the link.

I wish you every success with your quest.

Crow

 

[lgadbois]

Walter Hurt's fascinating conspiracy novel, "The Scarlet Shadow" doesn't appear to have anything to do with the LUE. The book is online at:
The Scarlet Shadow (1907) , by Walter Hurt

 

[Springfield]

Walter Hurt's fascinating conspiracy novel, "The Scarlet Shadow" doesn't appear to have anything to do with the LUE. The book is online at:
The Scarlet Shadow (1907) , by Walter Hurt

Chapter LIII. Pershur code.

 

[lgadbois]

There is no known link between the pershur/persher code and the LUE Treasure Map. I don't understand why certain people try to connect all treasure legends with the Jesuits, the Knights Templar, the Masons, the KGC, the Mormons, etc.

Let's see: What kind of wacky tale could I put together that contains all of the above?

Hmmmm...... Well, Jacob Waltz was originally from Germany. He discovered some secret papers in his parent's attic that proved he was a descendent of Jacque de Molay. Along with the papers was a map drawn by certain Jesuit priest about a large treasure that was hidden in the mountains of Pimera Alta. Once he got to America, Jacob was tipped off by the KGC that the Beale Papers contained pershur code that was actually written by Jesse James. Jesse had written the Beale Papers and back dated them so they would not attract attention. Walter Hurt knew about the treasure and felt it was necessary to draw a map of it's location, but first he had to create a key, so he wrote a book, " The Scarlet Shadow." In the book, Hurt wrote the key for the map in pershur code. He then designed the LUE map and gave it to Dean Miller to put in his treasure hunting manual. Some of the treasure was found by the Mormons and used it to build their temple.

I guess it's more entertaining to discuss stories created with imagination, than it is to research and present ideas based on documented facts. One thing for sure: Walter Hurt used a lot of imagination when writing his book!

 

[Springfield]

There is no known link between the pershur/persher code and the LUE Treasure Map...

You asked about the LUE, not the map.

Chapter LIII describes a significant organized effort that took place in a certain canyon. Get the picture? If not, just move on, as you're wasting your time otherwise.

P.S. Take a look at the Prologue

 

[lgadbois]

Springy,
1. I didn't ASK about the LUE. I made a simple statement of fact
2. When does a treasure hunter know when a document has been coded in persur? There is no proof that a persur/perser code was ever used to identify the location of the LUE treasure or the map published in THM #7.
3.. And if you don't like reading opinions other than your own, just move on. You are wasting your time here.

My comments about using imagination instead of fact were not directed at you. If you feel that way, I am sorry. My comments were about the creative fiction in Hurt's book.

 

[Springfield]

Iggy, I don't even have a clear idea what the LUE is, let alone a theory. Spanish? Aztec? Nazi? KGC? BS?

Walter Hurt was a newspaper man, apparently with Marxist populist leanings. Why KvM chose to include this particular chapter from this particular obscure book about labor problems in Colorado in his publication about the LUE (TVS) is puzzling, but he did, so he must have had a good reason.

In chapter LIII, Hurt mentions legends of fabulous gold deposits in the Culebras, site of KvM's LUE story, and also a secret operation carried out there. 'Organizationists' view Hurt suspiciously, and question whether chapter LIII is a message to those in the know about a large cache having been hidden in the Culebras during the active 'KGC days' prior to that groop's alleged disbanding ca 1912.

The LUE rumors and map seem to have surfaced in the 1930's - a period when many 'lost mine and hidden treasures' rumors came into prominence. Organizationists point out that the Gold Act of 1933 may have prompted cache owners to melt gold coins into bullion and recache them in new locations. This is when treasure writers, some well-known, published many treasure tales that allegedly are permanent coded messages about new or relocated treasure caches.

KvM and the LUE? I've heard all sorts of stuff, from him being an Organization propagandist to allegations that he hoaxed the whole story for laughs. Beats me. What do you think?

 

[Crow]

Its one of those legends where we do not know the rules of game if there is game at all?

The scarlet Shadow story does interest me.. not particularly if its connected to the Lue treasure lengend or not. To me the Scarlet Shadow seem to be some very relevent situation as today. It has been said in America in 1911 most the wealth of the nation was concentrated into the top 1% In 2014 it seems history has repeated itself. When the nations wealth is in the hands of a very small percentage the national economy declines because rich me do not have buy multiple of the same products. But if the nations wealth was in the hands of the 99% they would spend creating jobs and thus economic growth. So to me the story of the scarlet Shadow has a story to tell as relevant as it was back then as it is today. And its not an entirely American phenomenon either as the story resonates in many countries. And yes it is heavily influenced by an anti establishment ideal that generated into communism how we see it today.

Is it actually connected to any treasure is of course a matter of conjecture. However what interest me is in the early 20th century there was sightings of airships before airships officially existed Right across and America and right across the world. So this story of airship manufacture in a hidden valley really does intrigue me. Was it true or just hysteria during the labor wars of Colorado?

And interesting piece of history and perhaps a treasure in itself is it not?

Crow

 

[doc-d]

Crow, how history does repeat itself in so many ways…….as you mention, the wealth concentration in the >1%…….
The airships existing before they were admitted, and anti-gravity ships today (since the 1940's), zero point energy (since the 1900's); cures for cancer, etc, etc…….and so it is, much of what we know as history is a fiction told to manipulate and control the people………


El Crow is a wise old bird for sure………and we now need to pry loose his knowledge so we can learn……
Vaya con Dios mi amigo.

 

[Springfield]

Except for a few isolated cases, the world's wealth has always been with the top 1%, one way or another. Granted, in the USA, a 'middle class' emerged due to the necessity of granting 'freedom' to the hordes who developed much of the North American continent ca 1850 to 1950. Allowing new developers to develop their own capital greatly accelerated the growth. Even though the elite financed the effort, real wealth was spread out among the new rich. For a while. Later came the unions, which gave even more Americans a piece of the pie. For a while. After the continent was developed, the Federal Reserve saw to it that the middle class began defaulting most of their purchasing power back to the banks due to currency devaluation. Of course the unions lost their leverage too when the money game was switched to the Far East. So, we're pretty much back in the same boat- most of America's assets are back in the hands of the elite. We're not exactly serfs in the field yet, but we're not as independent as we think either. If all the rumors about gold caches are true, it makes you wonder who the guys are that control them and what their plans are.

 

[Springfield]

Nobody asked:

... Never could see a resemblance to any of that every time I have been in and around the Sangres. Nor have I ever been able to find suitable reasons for the range's naming. Nobody seems to know, at least up here in Colorado. Maybe the the reason is commonly known in New Mexico, though.And you, Señor Springfield, how do you rank the hoax possibility compared to others?

My girlfriend used to live at the foot of Mt. Blanca. She says a dying padre saw a red glow on Blanca at sundown and named the range. Next time you're in Crestone, I'll bet somebody there has an opinion.

No, I don't believe the hoax angle, although it's on the table, likely near the bottom of the pile. Even though vM was well-informed about a lot of things, I expect he limited the amount of good stuff in his stories. After all, who would expect anyone with genuine knowledge to reveal the truth? The question is, did he know any LUE truth? And, if he did, why would he say anything at all? Most of the treasure lore we have is available in the public media, and that's not a good thing for the terminally nosy because it's likely corrupted.

 

[Springfield]

I've heard that story. It brings up images as preposterous as some of these treasure legends. No offense to you or girlfriend intended. It just strikes that highly unlikely and Hollywood-esque image of a dying Padre, who's dying words to a few devoted followers are about Blanca looking like the Blood of Christ...

No offense taken - just reporting the local buzz. Many Mexican folk tales are designed to bring tears and a throat lump to the faithful.

... Now Blanca itself, I believe to be tied up in some of this. As well as going north to the Sand Dunes and Marble Mountain from there. I'll be in that general vicinity within 4-6 weeks. I think just north of the Valley, over Poncha Pass into the Arkansas drainage, to be important areas to look into. Further, concerning the label for San Luis Valley as Land of the Six Armed Cross based upon said cross on a church, that is an interesting symbol in of itself...

That entire San Luis Valley is the kind of place a person can never feel totally welcome in. Well, me anyway.

... Why release any of it at all? There is the 'he was fishing for info' theory, but ... You made mention of the prologue of ToVoS, so why would he communicate any of it? Why would Hurt? ... A question we both have. Obviously to communicate some of that truth. To whom and why? Again, if he knew some truth, the fishing theory can come into play, but, including nothing but the way they read, the prologue and epilogue stand out to me. Brings to mind that term, Organizationist, that you used...

Hard to figure the motives of dead guys you never knew. I don't know about Hurt, but vM presumably had reasons to be secretive.

... I understand what you are saying concerning the medium the 'lore' is transmitted, but is your 'happy man' sign in the public media? And even then, what the hell does it mean? How 'bout your Map Cave? The What may be difficult to determine, but I think there to be enough field evidence to suggest Something of a clandestine nature in many areas of the southwest, of which I include Colorado, spanning some course of time. Pertinent to the conversation, again the 'lore' may be in the public medium, but if something like pershur code or stenography is in use, the real info I would not deem public. ...

Hidden in plain sight maybe. "Something is happening here but you don't know what it is, do you, Mr. Jones?"

... And I keep open the possibility that the whole Treasure Genre may be a pershur genre itself, and a lot of this may have nothing to do with gold or silver caches and lost mines , golden ledges, and pink quartz veins.

What!? Heretic!! Or pilgrim ... hmmm.

 

[Springfield]

...but I also keep fully on the table that some of this stuff is about retracing steps that were laid in the 1300s - or even well before that. An active search for a known object, known to Societies with Secrets, of course ...

Definitely on the table, but remember - all that Prieure de Sion stuff may be yet another complete smokescreen.

 

[Crow]

After reading 127 posts I an no near understanding who what or if? However the theories have been interesting.The Lue seems to me is a mystery wrapped in mystery that to me may be nothing at all... The proverbial treasure version of the question how long is a piece of string?

Perhaps why it intrigues me so?

Crow

 

[Randy Bradford]

After reading 127 posts I an no near understanding who what or if? However the theories have been interesting.The Lue seems to me is a mystery wrapped in mystery that to me may be nothing at all... The proverbial treasure version of the question how long is a piece of string?

Perhaps why it intrigues me so?

Crow

Such is the LUE. I always thought the LUE was the map, seems others make a distinction between the two. It doesn't help that the origins of the story as best can be nailed down were carried out by a man who utilized no less than three names in putting the information out about the story. Von Mueller/Dean/Gladson loved pen names, apparently his wife did too. This also seems to be a common occurrence during this time period in treasure hunting history, heck, Maurice Kildare was a prominent treasure writer with no less than 30 pen names.

Fact: The LUE Map was published with virtually no back story, information or historical context.

Fact: The LUE Map defies any resemblance to anything that would be construed as a map and personally I've never understood how anyone ever took it to be such unless they had more information than has ever been supplied. No overt directional indicators, overt reference to place markers, beginning points, end points, landmarks, distance or anything else one might expect to find on a map.

Fact: Von Mueller himself made it clear this was in his estimation either a Spanish or an Aztec cache, though he made it clear he leaned towards Spanish. Connections to Nazi gold are in my estimation contrivances of a much later period that have been accelerated by the internet. The KGC, if taken at face value based on the popular literature, IS a distinct possibility simply because this too was something that was relatively unknown at the time, and certainly not as eagerly adopted as it has been since the advent of the Internet. I could be wrong on this point.

Fact: "Treasure of the Valley of Secrets" is a strange book and but for a few very brief references in the introduction and the pictures of drawn symbols in the photo area, appears to have very little direct correlation to the LUE map. Von Mueller didn't even print a copy of the map in the book which you might expect if he was making the case for the LUE. Reading the book, MOST of TotVoS is Von Mueller's attempt to grant historical credibility to the events portrayed in The Scarlet Shadow. He makes repeated references to the idea that many people felt the book itself was a myth, and once proven otherwise the belief was that the events portrayed n the book were themselves mythical. The LUE map is an afterthought, and an exquisitely brief one at that. Von Mueller also states in no uncertain terms that the LUE and the treasure vault described in The Scarlet Shadow are DIFFERENT, though potentially related sites. Von Mueller describes the vault as an abandoned Spanish Mine, the "cave of gold," while describing the site associated with the LUE as a burial vault for a Spanish priest.

This is an awesome thread by the way...