Legend of the Stone Maps

[releventchair]

Just to be clear about motive, I was writing about Travis and his carving of the stones, not Frank's decision to walk away which, imho, was inevitable.
But, Frank as a "barometer", leading to a red flag... not sure that anyone here would be a better gauge.

Yessir. Understood. My mentioning Franks motive threw you off.

My speculation of motive regarding Travis so far from others input......
Take away his name first and focus on the character.
Youth/background, formal and informal education and having a foot on both sides of the law so to speak.
Add in public perception and how to affect it.

Where did the Dutchman acquire his wealth? Who saw him actually do so?
Many people knew,or claimed to know,yet actual proof?

Now transfer that perception to another character with a map or maps.
Once map or maps are made public it suggests they are no longer of use to the party revealing it/them.
IF that revealing party has incurred wealth that needs to be justified as to the source...there are the maps regardless of the wealth's source.
A map could well have been original , and either unintelligible or the end of it's trail tapped out...does not matter in the public perception game.

My perception can or will change if more info surfaces.
I don't demonise Travis for any possible wrongdoing ,there have been many such characters in the past with land grants being but one example.
His background suits treasure hunting. Was the public at the time convinced he was successful?
Were the stones ,real or partly real, or fake , enough to justify his lifestyle and any show of wealth?
Knowing what capital he had and where it was acquired might be telling,or not. But public perception simply from maps displayed and desert trips could cover his tracks at the time. ?
A possible motive.

 

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[azdave35]

Frank has disassociated himself from the project for a reason.

That alone should be a huge red flag for anyone interested.
Add in the conversations that I have had with those who where at one time contributing to the effort (the project), and things start to grow a little dark.

Motive is the only thing that I find curious at this point.

motive?..come on hal..you've been at this long enough to figure out why travis carved the stones...i've known many treasure hunters over the years and they are a paranoid breed..they all think they are on the brink of hitting the big one and they don't want any other treasure hunters on their trail

 

[EarnieP]

Hal,

Travis' motives for carving the Stones?
I would think it was done for some kind of monetary profit, but as you said there's been no proof of that happening.
I believe Ryan insinuated that Travis carved the Stones as some kind of 'vision board' type thing. I don't buy that, but Ryan knows far more about Travis than I ever will (or care to), so maybe he's on to something there.

I've read here, and on 'that other site', that Travis was in prison for a while (I don't recall why), a story that he beat sailors celebrating the end of WWII, stories that he was a close associate of the murderers Bonny and Clyde, and other character revealing tid-bits.
There's probably no way I could understand what motives drove such a man, even a man who supposedly changed his ways later in life.

Hopefully Ryan will put that final nail in the lid, proving (to most of us, some will never be convinced) that Travis did indeed carve the Peralta Stones.
As to what his true motives were, we may never know.
But the 'why he did' is not as important to me as the 'what he did'.

By the way Hal, I believe that your insight and intellect have been well proven, many times!

 

[Hal Croves]

motive?..come on hal..you've been at this long enough to figure out why travis carved the stones...i've known many treasure hunters over the years and they are a paranoid breed..they all think they are on the brink of hitting the big one and they don't want any other treasure hunters on their trail

Someone recently pointed out to me that I have been at it sine childhood and that the fever has been continuous. Lost silver mines in New Jersey if you can believe it and a cache hidden beneath the lake that I grew up on. I have posted photos of one mine that may be related and have found what appears to be a man made rock structure, similar in design to that of a furnace/smelter, now submerged in 20-25 of water. The story involves local natives, a hidden cache of silver, not too unlike the DLM. It get strange when you learn of the carved stones that were found in the general area.

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But, concerning Travis and his motive for carving the stone maps, Dave, I may be dumb as a stump and can produce plenty of experts that will confirm it, but I just don't see how paranoia inspired Travis to do it. I can understand profit and fame, neither of which apparently were factors in his lifetime.

Paranoia? There are so many easier ways to deceive someone or, to protect a valuable map. Carving a set of stones to throw people off seems way over the top. Especially, since the stones were guarded and their existence not made public while Travis was alive. Could it be that Travis simply "re-produced" the stones, with edits?

A head scratch-er for sure.

Motive.
​

 

[azdave35]

Someone recently pointed out to me that I have been at it sine childhood and that the fever has been continuous. Lost silver mines in New Jersey if you can believe it and a cache hidden beneath the lake that I grew up on. I have posted photos of one mine that may be related and have found what appears to be a man made rock structure, similar in design to that of a furnace/smelter, now submerged in 20-25 of water. The story involves local natives, a hidden cache of silver, not too unlike the DLM. It get strange when you learn of the carved stones that were found in the general area.

View attachment 1368064

View attachment 1368067

​

But, concerning Travis and his motive for carving the stone maps, Dave, I may be dumb as a stump and can produce plenty of experts that will confirm it, but I just don't see how paranoia inspired Travis to do it. I can understand profit and fame, neither of which apparently were factors in his lifetime.

Paranoia? There are so many easier ways to deceive someone or, to protect a valuable map. Carving a set of stones to throw people off seems way over the top. Especially, since the stones were guarded and their existence not made public while Travis was alive. Could it be that Travis simply "re-produced" the stones, with edits?

A head scratch-er for sure.

Motive.
​

hal....i was on the other site this morning and there is a new post that might clear some things up

 

[azdave35]

Someone recently pointed out to me that I have been at it sine childhood and that the fever has been continuous. Lost silver mines in New Jersey if you can believe it and a cache hidden beneath the lake that I grew up on. I have posted photos of one mine that may be related and have found what appears to be a man made rock structure, similar in design to that of a furnace/smelter, now submerged in 20-25 of water. The story involves local natives, a hidden cache of silver, not too unlike the DLM. It get strange when you learn of the carved stones that were found in the general area.

View attachment 1368064

View attachment 1368067

​

But, concerning Travis and his motive for carving the stone maps, Dave, I may be dumb as a stump and can produce plenty of experts that will confirm it, but I just don't see how paranoia inspired Travis to do it. I can understand profit and fame, neither of which apparently were factors in his lifetime.

Paranoia? There are so many easier ways to deceive someone or, to protect a valuable map. Carving a set of stones to throw people off seems way over the top. Especially, since the stones were guarded and their existence not made public while Travis was alive. Could it be that Travis simply "re-produced" the stones, with edits?

A head scratch-er for sure.

Motive.
​

hal...my old friend Carroll Ingle arrived in arizona in the late 40's or early 50's with the intent of finding the LDM..i'm sure the movie "lust for gold" brought him out here...at first he studied the stone maps but it didn't take long for him to figure out something about them didn't add up ...but in his travels on the west end of the mountains he started finding marked cactus and stones...over the years he learned how to read these markers and they eventually led him to two treasures...but it also alerted others that he might be onto something so they started destroying the markers and there are very few left today..but when carroll first got here all of the markers were still in place..it serves as a reminder what paranoia and greed does to people.....most of the maps floating around (including the stone maps) are totally useless except to the person that made them....the only usable maps are the ones carved in the cactus and sadly they are all gone due to the greed and paranoia of treasure hunters...i've seen them go to extreme measures to draw other hunters away from "their area"....

 

[Hal Croves]

hal...my old friend Carroll Ingle arrived in arizona in the late 40's or early 50's with the intent of finding the LDM..i'm sure the movie "lust for gold" brought him out here...at first he studied the stone maps but it didn't take long for him to figure out something about them didn't add up ...but in his travels on the west end of the mountains he started finding marked cactus and stones...over the years he learned how to read these markers and they eventually led him to two treasures...but it also alerted others that he might be onto something so they started destroying the markers and there are very few left today..but when carroll first got here all of the markers were still in place..it serves as a reminder what paranoia and greed does to people.....most of the maps floating around (including the stone maps) are totally useless except to the person that made them....the only usable maps are the ones carved in the cactus and sadly they are all gone due to the greed and paranoia of treasure hunters...i've seen them go to extreme measures to draw other hunters away from "their area"....

Great post azdave!

 

[EarnieP]

Regards the 'other site' post; The guy is certainly in the right business, clearly loves drama!

 

[Hal Croves]

Frank,

Straight up, I once warned a guy posting on the other site to be careful of you, not because I considered you untrustworthy, but because, I felt that you, macho you, might not agree with some of his lifestyle choices. In hindsight, I appear to have been wrong and for that, I owe you an apology. A public apology.

With that said, I am sorry Frank, sincerely.

About the most recent revelations on the other site....
I am at a loss for words but suddenly, Frank is beginning to grow on me.

Not literally thou.


Cheers Frank and best of luck to you!

 

[markmar]

Ryan G wrote how Travis family made it clear to Greg Davis how the stone tablets which are at the Museum were not carved by Travis . Is just what I have supported from the beginning .

 

[Hal Croves]

Regards the 'other site' post; The guy is certainly in the right business, clearly loves drama!

EarnieP,

Seven hours of climbing and cutting yesterday has left me exhausted and my hands almost too swollen to type but, great Gatsby, that was funny.
Cheers EarnieP,

I think that I need a straw.

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[markmar]

Hal

I remember you were complained because we didn't help Ryan in his research . Now you see the results .

I my country a proverb says : " Feed the wolf in the summer to kill you in the winter " .

A lonely wolf wrote : " I did this because Ive learned in life that the only people we can trust is ourselves....."


Incredible !

 

[Hal Croves]

I remember you were complained because we didn't help Ryan in his research . Now you see the results .

I my country a proverb says : " Feed the wolf in the summer to kill you in the winter " .

A lonely wolf wrote : " I did this because Ive learned in life that the only people we can trust is ourselves....."


Incredible !

Είναι αυτό για μένα;

 

[EarnieP]

Frank's posts are always unembroidered honesty, period!
I assume the man is exactly the same.

My best to you also Frank.

 

[releventchair]

Hmmmn , found the other sites post..

Dad has been known to say " friendship can turn to hen*&@~!".
More so in business.

Regardless ,should I see AZ. Again..Frank would be a good guy to have in my corner.
Cheers to ya Frank. Indeed.

 

[EarnieP]

Hal,

"Seven hours of climbing and cutting yesterday..." Are you back in the Superstition? Pit mine?

 

[sailaway]

For those of you that think Travis was a lawman you have been misinformed all these years. Yes he had a badge but was no Lawman. Travis was nothing more than a "rent a cop", Security Guard at a Lumber Mill for which he had the badge. You can find proof of this in the letter that I mentioned some time back that will be available in a book not authored by me.

 

[markmar]

Είναι αυτό για μένα;

Ναί !

 

[releventchair]

For those of you that think Travis was a lawman you have been misinformed all these years. Yes he had a badge but was no Lawman. Travis was nothing more than a "rent a cop", Security Guard at a Lumber Mill for which he had the badge. You can find proof of this in the letter that I mentioned some time back that will be available in a book not authored by me.

If that is inspired by my mentioning having a foot each side of the law...doing time and being a free civilian are two different educations.
Criminal minds are different and care little what side they are on at varying times.
Not saying Travis was a hardened criminal ,but was exposed to the mindsets either side, enough to have his own perspective.

 

[somehiker]

you mean the maps that travis carved...lol

From my last reply to Ernie....
" the rewards of new experiences and new friends have always kept the balance sheet in the black. "

I think it was one of those friends, Dave, who first used the term "stoners" in reference to the folks who have an abiding curiosity in the Tumlinson stones.
Frank first used it shortly after joined an excursion with TP and I. We only came back with some purple "hot" rocks at the end of that day, but he did get to see the same thing that first piqued my own interest in Travis' artwork. Even became a stoner himself for a while, with his own stone heart and area of interest and theories worth consideration IMO. But his main perspective is like I said, that of a police detective, who's real interest lies in the personal history, motivations and actions of the perp, gathering evidence from many sources from which he can build a case for conviction. As with any cold case, much of the physical evidence has been corrupted by time and contaminated by others, but I think there is still enough remaining to build a case for the reality of the objective.....not Travis' objective, but mine. Those things are the basis for my perspective on the stones and the other materials which appear to be connected to them.