Legend of the Stone Maps

[deducer]

As I've explained before, I suspect the LH applies to what's stored inside a facility within the mountain, rather than a surface area.
With the words and the matching numbers being the two parts of a coded "account key", similar to that used for Swiss bank accounts.
That it's more of a ledger, than a "map"
Fr. Joseph Och mentions these codes in his account of the expulsion.

The genius being the wherewithal to use as codes, terms denoting physical descriptions, as on the CP paper and elsewhere. That's what threw me off for quite some time- such a seamless transition between the CP and LH, that if you didn't know better, you'd end up banging your head against a brick wall.

 

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[cactusjumper]

If the target is the cave....it's empty now.
So was the one at the first CP rock I found, really only a narrow passage between the CP rock, another rock, and the cliff face, but there WAS something that seemed to point elsewhere.
Which was the smaller piece of the broken heartstone.....an arch shape with a zig-zag line or "Z" that matches a Z above and to the left of the second CP, and where the drawing says "fornix". I think that's pretty cool.

Wayne,

That's why I believe the maps have been reverse engineered, using landmarks that the maker(s) was familiar with.

Makes a map look pretty legit.

Take care,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Wayne,

That's why I believe the maps have been reverse engineered, using landmarks that the maker(s) was familiar with.

Makes a map look pretty legit.

Take care,

Joe

All good maps, not just the stone maps etc.
Someone had to lay eyes on it, before it could be accurately drawn or carved.
The more time they spent out there, the better the map could be.
Don't know if I'd call that "reverse engineering" though.

 

[somehiker]

The genius being the wherewithal to use as codes, terms denoting physical descriptions, as on the CP paper and elsewhere. That's what threw me off for quite some time- such a seamless transition between the CP and LH, that if you didn't know better, you'd end up banging your head against a brick wall.

Certainly limits the number who will understand, and even then it gives me a headache sometimes.
The Spanish may have been used, where and as it was, in order to foster an illusion of initial success....."Heh. This is gonna be easy, guys !"..... with only confusion and disappointment/frustration to follow.

 

[deducer]

Certainly limits the number who will understand, and even then it gives me a headache sometimes.
The Spanish may have been used, where and as it was, in order to foster an illusion of initial success....."Heh. This is gonna be easy, guys !"..... with only confusion and disappointment/frustration to follow.

Hence, IMO, "faith" being so prominent and overlooking the area in question, not in terms of encouragement, but a stipulation. And at this point I suspect it applies just as much if not more, to that which stands between triangulum and el coazon.

 

[sailaway]

An ASU geologist once authenticated the stone carvings to be at least 100 years old (at the time they were tested) based on weathering and other factors.
Superstition Mountain Treasure Stone Maps

California Geologist from CSULA (Cal State University Los Angeles) named Martin L. Stout, and asked him to try and authenticate or age the stones. Stout went to an old colleague of his at Redlands University in Redlands, Ca. The man's name was Steve Dana. Professor Dana was supposed to have dated the Stone Maps to the mid 1800s.
Peralta Stones Stone Maps

then there are reports that the FBI had the map evaluated.

 

[EarnieP]

Even with the heavy fertilizer you stoners are shoveling nothings going to grow in that garden.

 

[somehiker]

Hence, IMO, "faith" being so prominent and overlooking the area in question, not in terms of encouragement, but a stipulation. And at this point I suspect it applies just as much if not more, to that which stands between triangulum and el coazon.

Could be the message behind the "SANTAFE" midway along the horse's path ?
Was I hiking in, instead of out ? And was it really a single trail with a particular challenge at the halfway point instead of an upper and lower trail ?
Just an assumption I've been working with since last year.

 

[somehiker]

then there are reports that the FBI had the map evaluated.

And what kind of stones did they all say they were ?

 

[azdave35]

Even with the heavy fertilizer you stoners are shoveling nothings going to grow in that garden.

you mean the maps that travis carved...lol

 

[somehiker]

Even with the heavy fertilizer you stoners are shoveling nothings going to grow in that garden.

Glad to see you're still interested Ernie, regardless of whether you find any of this possible or not.
Are you one of the flies on the wall....or a barnyard pest ?
Or maybe just another one of those already tangled up in the web.....the more the better IMO.
Long as you and they are, I see I got nothing to worry about out there 'cept all them little black ones that are attracted by honest sweat.

So, despite the stack of negatives, most of which we haven't seen or been allowed to judge ourselves as yet, for the time being I'll keep on plugging away on this, out there in the mountains where my interests and those rugged peaks and deep canyons present the challenges I need to completely break away a couple of times per year from the normal routine and boundaries that most of us share in our daily lives.
The cost of these intermissions has been relatively little, for I have a months vacation with pay to budget with every year, and even though I may go a bit over that amount occasionally, the rewards of new experiences and new friends have always kept the balance sheet in the black.

 

[EarnieP]

Stoners will continue to spin their convoluted theories and webs.
By all means keep catching those flies, that's why Travis carved em.

 

[Hal Croves]

Glad to see you're still interested Ernie, regardless of whether you find any of this possible or not.
Are you one of the flies on the wall....or a barnyard pest ?
Or maybe just another one of those already tangled up in the web.....the more the better IMO.
Long as you and they are, I see I got nothing to worry about out there 'cept all them little black ones that are attracted by honest sweat.

So, despite the stack of negatives, most of which we haven't seen or been allowed to judge ourselves as yet, for the time being I'll keep on plugging away on this, out there in the mountains where my interests and those rugged peaks and deep canyons present the challenges I need to completely break away a couple of times per year from the normal routine and boundaries that most of us share in our daily lives.
The cost of these intermissions has been relatively little, for I have a months vacation with pay to budget with every year, and even though I may go a bit over that amount occasionally, the rewards of new experiences and new friends have always kept the balance sheet in the black.

somehiker,

Frank has shared his thoughts on the stone maps and to his credit, with no strings attached. What I find difficult to understand is the motive. If "fame" was the goal, Travis certainly never achieved it in his lifetime on a scale that would justify the effort.
It just feels like something is missing, and yes, beyond the obvious.

Cheers.

 

[somehiker]

somehiker,

Frank has shared his thoughts on the stone maps and to his credit, with no strings attached. What I find difficult to understand is the motive. If "fame" was the goal, Travis certainly never achieved it in his lifetime on a scale that would justify the effort.
It just feels like something is missing, and yes, beyond the obvious.

Cheers.

With the fervor of a great detective, I think Frank sees the Tumlinson legend as a "cold case" worthy of his attention and expertise.
That Travis got away with something, and that he DID have an ulterior motive. As a result, he and Ryan have given us....both stoners and moaners....plenty of new evidence to peruse and discuss.....mostly in a respectfully adult manner for those so inclined.
While I may agree or disagree with various aspects and some of the interpretations of said evidence, I heartily support their efforts and contributions to this subject.

 

[Hal Croves]

Stoners will continue to spin their convoluted theories and webs.
By all means keep catching those flies, that's why Travis carved em.

EarnieP,

I am stuck on motive.

Fame? It never happened while Travis was alive.
Profit? I am not aware of any profit realized by Travis.

It just feels as if something obvious has been overlooked.
Thou, I am at a loss to explain it.

The only hope for some resolution might be a comparison of the stones to the "ground map" which, Frank has already point to.
Despite being blurred or blocked out (don't remember which) the ground map in the photograph seems impossibly small to discern any detail.

And if its not 100% legible, chances are, its useless.

 

[Hal Croves]

With the fervor of a great detective, I think Frank sees the Tumlinson legend as a "cold case" worthy of his attention and expertise.
That Travis got away with something, and that he DID have an ulterior motive. As a result, he and Ryan have given us....both stoners and moaners....plenty of new evidence to peruse and discuss.....in a respectfully adult manner for those so inclined.
While I may agree or disagree with various aspects and some of the interpretations of said evidence, I heartily support their efforts and contributions to this subject.

Frank has disassociated himself from the project for a reason.

That alone should be a huge red flag for anyone interested.
Add in the conversations that I have had with those who where at one time contributing to the effort (the project), and things start to grow a little dark.

Motive is the only thing that I find curious at this point.

 

[EarnieP]

I may have come across a little too harsh towards the 'Stoners' (those who believe there's historical authenticity to the Peralta Stones). Let me back up a bit.

I actually like the story of the Peralta Stones (PS), all of them.
I like the original story where Travis accidentally stumbled onto the Stones on the side of the highway.
I like the story where the Mexican miners buried them for future direction to their hidden mines.
I also enjoy the stories about Travis carving the stones himself out in Texas (my personal favorite).
I even kind of like all the side stories about the testing by professors and FBI agents as to the age and authenticity of the PS.

All these different tales add a great deal to the myth of the Lost Dutchman, and to the mystery of the Superstition itself.
I don't really mind the Stoners who posts that no one but them are smart enough to understand the stones. How their superior intellect gives them a special insight unobtainable to the mass of 'flies' buzzing around. More power to you, believe whatever you want.

However, for the sake of some new Dutchman hunters, I do think an occasional warning about the PS doesn't hurt.
Remember, a map of any kind which does not allow users to find the objective after fifty years of study is worse than useless. Was the map designed to be so clever that only one or two 'intellectually superior' hunters could divine it's hidden secrets, or is it just fake?
Figure the odds and make your own call.

I'm torn, because as I said, I do like the PS stories.
They help bring in more tourists (and their dollars) to the Apache Junction economy. I'm all for that. The tourist enjoy it, and so do the merchants. Nothing wrong with that, great fun. Exciting to think about, can lead to good clean healthy outdoor activity. I have nothing against those who want to believe that everything concerning the Stones is 'rock hard' fact. I enjoy reading their theories. However, I do occasionally feel compelled to make comments that I probably shouldn't. What others want to believe is their business.

I've said before if I win the lottery I'd love to open an RV park next to the Superstition. Could have a big nightly bon fire where Stoners and others Dutch Hunters could come spin their tales for the visiting tourists. Would be great fun. Maybe we could set aside a few spaces as a retirement village for old Dutch Hunters who never quite found their bonanza. I can see it now, a nice red barn and corrals for an outfitter to work out of. A bunk house and list of guides willing (for a fee) to guide the latest generation of seekers into the Superstition Wilderness. How about a nice bookstore and T-shirt shop? Cold beer and ice tea? Maybe even a swimming pool to cool off those returning from their hot trips back into that mystical 1800's country? Oh yeah, I can just picture it!
Sarge, I can see you running such a place, you should do it!

 

[Hal Croves]

I may have come across a little too harsh towards the 'Stoners' (those who believe there's historical authenticity to the Peralta Stones). Let me back up a bit.

I actually like the story of the Peralta Stones (PS), all of them.
I like the original story where Travis accidentally stumbled onto the Stones on the side of the highway.
I like the story where the Mexican miners buried them for future direction to their hidden mines.
I also enjoy the stories about Travis carving the stones himself out in Texas (my personal favorite).
I even kind of like all the side stories about the testing by professors and FBI agents as to the age and authenticity of the PS.

All these different tales add a great deal to the myth of the Lost Dutchman, and to the mystery of the Superstition itself.
I don't really mind the Stoners who posts that no one but them are smart enough to understand the stones. How their superior intellect gives them a special insight unobtainable to the mass of 'flies' buzzing around. More power to you, believe whatever you want.

However, for the sake of some new Dutchman hunters, I do think an occasional warning about the PS doesn't hurt.
Remember, a map of any kind which does not allow users to find the objective after fifty years of study is worse than useless. Was the map designed to be so clever that only one or two 'intellectually superior' hunters could divine it's hidden secrets, or is it just fake?
Figure the odds and make your own call.

I'm torn, because as I said, I do like the PS stories.
They help bring in more tourists (and their dollars) to the Apache Junction economy. I'm all for that. The tourist enjoy it, and so do the merchants. Nothing wrong with that, great fun. Exciting to think about, can lead to good clean healthy outdoor activity. I have nothing against those who want to believe that everything concerning the Stones is 'rock hard' fact. I enjoy reading their theories. However, I do occasionally feel compelled to make comments that I probably shouldn't. What others want to believe is their business.

I've said before if I win the lottery I'd love to open an RV park next to the Superstition. Could have a big nightly bon fire where Stoners and others Dutch Hunters could come spin their tales for the visiting tourists. Would be great fun. Maybe we could set aside a few spaces as a retirement village for old Dutch Hunters who never quite found their bonanza. I can see it now, a nice red barn and corrals for an outfitter to work out of. A bunk house and list of guides willing (for a fee) to guide the latest generation of seekers into the Superstition Wilderness. How about a nice bookstore and T-shirt shop? Cold beer and ice tea? Maybe even a swimming pool to cool off those returning from their hot trips back into that mystical 1800's country? Oh yeah, I can just picture it!
Sarge, I can see you running such a place, you should do it!

Being immune to any special insight, and void of any scholarly intellect, I can say with confidence that I still don't get it.

Motive?
Motive?
Motive?

​

“The larger crimes are apt to be the simpler, for the bigger the crime, the more obvious, as a rule, is the motive.”
A.C. Doyle
​

 

[releventchair]

Frank has disassociated himself from the project for a reason.

That alone should be a huge red flag for anyone interested.
Add in the conversations that I have had with those who where at one time contributing to the effort (the project), and things start to grow a little dark.

Motive is the only thing that I find curious at this point.

Frank as a barometer leading to a red flag...I'm not sure about.
Of course he would have an academic interest in information from the Tumilsons..but the greater roll he has played , in my opinion has been in getting others orientated on the playing field/terrains involved in pursuing information ,but more importantly the desert itself. That alone is quite significant.
From what is known of Frank ,his motive is for him to decide. I won't ask why or gauge others work because of his involvement or not with it. Though if he told me to leave something be it would be strongly considered
Contact can still be made with parties he has worked with , but plenty of projects out there ,with a choice of who's to pursue what ; and with whom in charge?

Funnest part to me so far was when the newb caught the fever and was whacking away at a tunnel roof.
Some of us need to walk before we run.....

But ,other personal projects might be more rewarding , or fit more quiet ambitions to the mentor , and let others fly off on their own desired course once they are orientated?

 

[Hal Croves]

Frank as a barometer leading to a red flag...I'm not sure about.
Of course he would have an academic interest in information from the Tumilsons..but the greater roll he has played , in my opinion has been in getting others orientated on the playing field/terrains involved in pursuing information ,but more importantly the desert itself. That alone is quite significant.
From what is known of Frank ,his motive is for him to decide. I won't ask why or gauge others work because of his involvement or not with it. Though if he told me to leave something be it would be strongly considered
Contact can still be made with parties he has worked with , but plenty of projects out there ,with a choice of who's to pursue what ; and with whom in charge?

Funnest part to me so far was when the newb caught the fever and was whacking away at a tunnel roof.
Some of us need to walk before we run.....

But ,other personal projects might be more rewarding , or fit more quiet ambitions to the mentor , and let others fly off on their own desired course once they are orientated?

Just to be clear about motive, I was writing about Travis and his carving of the stones, not Frank's decision to walk away which, imho, was inevitable.
But, Frank as a "barometer", leading to a red flag... not sure that anyone here would be a better gauge.