Legend of the Stone Maps

[wrmickel1]

As a standalone map of a small area, and orientated to a particular view of one major landmark, ie: Weavers Needle from a point due south. The cross reference (sightline), perhaps in this case to the east from a natural or man made feature (an inclined arrangement of overlapping slabs of rock ?), would indicate the hot spot, with a triangle of some kind also at that point.
A written list of instructions (or derrotero as Pegleg was said to possess) and this stone, could have been all that was needed in order to locate such a cache IMO.....as well other places
further down the trail.

View attachment 1366947 View attachment 1366948

It didn't, unless he lied to where he found them, But the Heart map does stand alone once
your at the right place. Then the stone I got was over looked by Travis. And if he would have got that one I think he
would have solved the maps.

wrmickel1

 

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[Azquester]

Sarge

I believed to age a stone , was to leave it exposed to the elements . I believe Travis buried the stone tablets because was afraid a possible robbery .

That's how so many stone maps came about!

"Jack" Travis planted the stone seeds and grew them!!

Jack and his stone map Stalk!

A Hell of a way to make some beans. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

[somehiker]

I must have missed Ryan's assertion that the heart stone was a stand alone possession, as I find that a bit surprising as this flies into the face of the existing narrative (Hatt?) that the heart stone was discovered already in the cavity of the upper TS which was buried facing the lower TS, and this being supported by the fact that the fronts of both TS are smooth and devoid of erosion, while the backs are rough and pock-marked.

Nothing to do with RG.
Strictly my own thoughts, based on a couple of observations made last year out in the Queen Valley area.
Considering the promotion of the alternate location given in some accounts, including the visual references to locations featured in RG's videos, I thought it might be worth a lookaround.
I'll have to go back though, since I still have a couple of questions I want to answer for myself.
Marius is correct in that the stones would weather much faster out in the open, IF that was the plan. This was discussed some time ago, at which time I pointed out that the "DON" side of the lower TS showed signs of alteration (letter carving) after erosion had already occurred. This is not to say that Travis did not carve the stone after he had "weathered" it, but this whole tale seems to becoming more and more convoluted as time goes on. But I'm still looking forward to seeing the results of Ryan's and the Tumlinson's efforts to correct this mess, and I expect it will be at least as informative as the "Legends" series turned out to be.
Caveat Emptor.

 

[coazon de oro]

sgtfda,

Do you find this person credible?
Great post Frank.

Howdy Hermano,

Just take a before picture of a stone, then bury it for a million years, and tell us if you see any difference. Yes the stone will age, it will be a million years older, but I don't believe you will notice any change.

Homar

 

[sgtfda]

Post removed

 

[sgtfda]

Post removed

 

[nobodie]

Frank,
Do you think we will get to see the ground map? There are things missing from the stone maps.

 

[somehiker]

Howdy Hermano,

Just take a before picture of a stone, then bury it for a million years, and tell us if you see any difference. Yes the stone will age, it will be a million years older, but I don't believe you will notice any change.

Homar

Not entirely true Homar. Certain natural acids, from plants or other sources can cause deterioration of rock, even granite, over time. Even at some depth.
It was said though, that the two trail stones were found buried a couple of feet down and face to face. That when pulled apart, it was noted that a myriad of tiny roots had grown between the adjacent faces of these stones. According to my own experience, these roots should have left a visible spiderweb of stains on the "map" surfaces at the very least, if not many deeper lines. The natural acids from all plants roots dissolve soil and rock so that the nutrients can be absorbed by them. Couldn't see that effect on any photos of the map stones, or on those at the museum.
As an example, earlier this year I hiked out to a place where I had noted a series of rounded holes (similar to mortar pits) on a steep smooth rock slope. I was wondering if the holes were man made, perhaps post holes of some kind. But when I got there, I found they were of all different sizes and depths, and new ones were still being created by the roots of a few saguaro and barrel cactus which had taken root at other places on the same incline. The empty holes that had attracted my attention turned out to be pockets in the rock where the cacti and bushes had died and all the roots and dirt had been washed away by rainfall.

 

[deducer]

Nothing to do with RG.
Strictly my own thoughts, based on a couple of observations made last year out in the Queen Valley area.
Considering the promotion of the alternate location given in some accounts, including the visual references to locations featured in RG's videos, I thought it might be worth a lookaround.
I'll have to go back though, since I still have a couple of questions I want to answer for myself.
Marius is correct in that the stones would weather much faster out in the open, IF that was the plan. This was discussed some time ago, at which time I pointed out that the "DON" side of the lower TS showed signs of alteration (letter carving) after erosion had already occurred. This is not to say that Travis did not carve the stone after he had "weathered" it, but this whole tale seems to becoming more and more convoluted as time goes on. But I'm still looking forward to seeing the results of Ryan's and the Tumlinson's efforts to correct this mess, and I expect it will be at least as informative as the "Legends" series turned out to be.
Caveat Emptor.

You did mention that given the revelations previously posted by Ryan that the reddish "heart stone" came to be in Travis' possession by way of his grandfather.

It would be interesting, if you are able to reveal this, to understand better how exactly the "revelations" give rise to the idea that the heart stone (contrary to popular belief) was not already enclosed within the buried trail maps, but was brought back.

Although now I can certainly see that with the subsequent creation and existence of the CP rock and paper, particularly with the noto E and/or noto triangulum directive, the heart stone would then be the only item necessary to complete the final few steps.

 

[Hal Croves]

Very

sgtfda,

At risk of blowing a little smoke up your back side, that was all I need to read.

The only other question that I have is motive.
Deception, monetary gain, artistic impulse, what in your opinion started the ball rolling?



On a side note, have you heard of another stone map connected to the Grijalva family?



Thanks Frank!

 

[markmar]

My advice is to focus on the ground map not the stones. You refuse to accept the true stone map story. Good luck in your search.

But the stones are ground maps too .

 

[sgtfda]

Post removed

 

[coazon de oro]

Not entirely true Homar. Certain natural acids, from plants or other sources can cause deterioration of rock, even granite, over time. Even at some depth.
It was said though, that the two trail stones were found buried a couple of feet down and face to face. That when pulled apart, it was noted that a myriad of tiny roots had grown between the adjacent faces of these stones. According to my own experience, these roots should have left a visible spiderweb of stains on the "map" surfaces at the very least, if not many deeper lines. The natural acids from all plants roots dissolve soil and rock so that the nutrients can be absorbed by them. Couldn't see that effect on any photos of the map stones, or on those at the museum.
As an example, earlier this year I hiked out to a place where I had noted a series of rounded holes (similar to mortar pits) on a steep smooth rock slope. I was wondering if the holes were man made, perhaps post holes of some kind. But when I got there, I found they were of all different sizes and depths, and new ones were still being created by the roots of a few saguaro and barrel cactus which had taken root at other places on the same incline. The empty holes that had attracted my attention turned out to be pockets in the rock where the cacti and bushes had died and all the roots and dirt had been washed away by rainfall.

Howdy Wayne,

Yes there are certain plants like the Chanca Piedra that can soften stone. Roots seek moisture, and usually find it in exsiting cracks, and pockets. Tiny seeds also fall into exsisting cracks in stone widened by ice, take root, and then those roots tend to crack the stone even further. Sidewalks get lifted before any roots cut their way, or mold into them. The roots on the PSM's were just seeking moisture in the gaps, and groves. In other words roots don't drill their way through stone, there has to be a crack or pocket where moisture collects.

We do seem to be in agreement, that there was no "weathering" on the DON stone since the so called "weathering" did nothing to the letters.

Homar

 

[sgtfda]

Post removed

 

[somehiker]

Originally Posted by Bill Riley
Who do you think carved them or how do you think Travis acquired them? Maybe one or the other were real stone maps. Travis by the act of forgery has made the whole set suspect. It would be hard to convince anyone that any of them were nothing more than a, what was it you said, a mere: "Maelstrom of duplicity".

It's like pealing the layers off a rotten onion. The whole thing stinks real bad and it makes you cry foul a little just touching it. But, once you get to the center you find out it's not a real onion it just stinks.

I still think it's possible that Travis found the H/P stone as and where he told a few of his friends.
I would also suggest, given the revelations previously posted by Ryan, that the reddish "heart stone" came to be in Travis' possession by way of his grandfather, and that it was this stone that was the key to locating the H/P stone, as well as the other five smaller stones which are now claimed to be the authentic artifacts. As to who carved them ? The H/P stone IMO, was the product of someone of far greater religious conviction and background than Travis but not necessarily a cleric. At this time I suspect the heart was carved by the same person who created the map by which Travis found the other stones.

Just so y'all understand, my "out of the box" thinking was in reply to Bill's question. One "revelation" I speak of was that of the stone heart having been accidentally dropped and broken and subsequently hastily glued back together because of fears that Travis would be pissed.....my thought being "why would he be pissed, since he had made it himself and could just as easily make a replacement for it ?" and..."could not a broken stone perhaps make it seem more authentic, since a very old set of stone maps would be expected to show various signs of wear and tear ?"
Another revelation I had in mind was the talk of the five small stones. That made me wonder if previous confusion about the number of stones/maps found, could be due to Travis having possession of the heart stone prior to beginning his search, since even without the heart stone, the upper trail stone could still be considered a "map". At least one of the accounts of Travis' discovery of the stones, from the Peck materials as I recall, had him finding the two trail stones buried about two feet down, with the heart buried separately and below the TStones. Some of the inconsistencies between the various versions of the discovery of the stones, plus the revelation of there being these small stones, along with the heart being a "small" stone which Travis could have "incorporated" into his own stones, are what got me thinking outside the box....that's all. Didn't think sharing these ideas would upset folks.
As I've said, I'm hoping that everyone's questions relating to this and other relevant topics will be adequately answered by Ryan's production.
Then we can ALL move on to other things IMO.

 

[somehiker]

You did mention that given the revelations previously posted by Ryan that the reddish "heart stone" came to be in Travis' possession by way of his grandfather.

It would be interesting, if you are able to reveal this, to understand better how exactly the "revelations" give rise to the idea that the heart stone (contrary to popular belief) was not already enclosed within the buried trail maps, but was brought back.

Although now I can certainly see that with the subsequent creation and existence of the CP rock and paper, particularly with the noto E and/or noto triangulum directive, the heart stone would then be the only item necessary to complete the final few steps.

Three things I believe....once you are close enough to see them all.
Because there is more than one "end" point very close to each other, including at a second (much larger) CP rock.
These are:
The red heart stone.....down low
The CP drawing page.....up high
Something really cool.....in between

Of course, I could be wrong

 

[somehiker]

Howdy Wayne,

Yes there are certain plants like the Chanca Piedra that can soften stone. Roots seek moisture, and usually find it in exsiting cracks, and pockets. Tiny seeds also fall into exsisting cracks in stone widened by ice, take root, and then those roots tend to crack the stone even further. Sidewalks get lifted before any roots cut their way, or mold into them. The roots on the PSM's were just seeking moisture in the gaps, and groves. In other words roots don't drill their way through stone, there has to be a crack or pocket where moisture collects.

We do seem to be in agreement, that there was no "weathering" on the DON stone since the so called "weathering" did nothing to the letters.

Homar

Homar:

I was talking about "biodecay" in particular, with regards to this location, although there is plenty of biophysical degradation everywhere out there in the mountains as well.
All of those patches of green,brown, and blackened lichens and mosses out there on the rocks provide the perfect seedbed for most of the larger flora, as well as eating away at the hard stuff as well. In the greener parts, both moisture and nutrients are adequate for germination of cacti and shrubbery.

 

[sailaway]

All stones degrade at the same rate? No! Who among you knows what the Hardness is of the Stone Maps? The Heart Stone is a different type rock and much harder? I would suggest that those of you making statement about rock degrading research what kind of rocks the maps are. I have family members that were killed in the Civil War and the headstone shows lots of deterioration, yet have other family members that died before the Civil War and the headstones are not showing much deterioration. These stones are in the same Cemetery and near each other so means in the same basic environment. A reasonable person would not state during a lifetime that a stone map would show signs of deterioration without proof of it being a soft stone type.

 

[somehiker]

All stones degrade at the same rate? No! Who among you knows what the Hardness is of the Stone Maps? The Heart Stone is a different type rock and much harder? I would suggest that those of you making statement about rock degrading research what kind of rocks the maps are. I have family members that were killed in the Civil War and the headstone shows lots of deterioration, yet have other family members that died before the Civil War and the headstones are not showing much deterioration. These stones are in the same Cemetery and near each other so means in the same basic environment. A reasonable person would not state during a lifetime that a stone map would show signs of deterioration without proof of it being a soft stone type.

sailaway:

You should read the Arizona Highways article.
The three larger stones are of two types of sandstone.....quite soft and easily abraded . The heart stone is of mudstone or shale....much harder and resistant to weathering.
I don't recall anyone suggesting there was any weathering of the heart.
You can read the opinions of the experts at Desert Archaeology Inc. here, at Gary Cundiff's website : https://web.archive.org/save/_embed...iff/LostDutchman/peralta/Arizona Highways.pdf

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Homar ni buddy, you are correct about certain plants having silicon dissolving abilities, i f i recall correctly, Col Fawcet remarked how after walking in a field of a certain succulent he found his spurs dissolving, and in south Amrica they have a bird that nests in granite kn holes which it picks out, after rubbing parts of a plant on it until it soften enough to be easily pecked out. Perhaps this is how the inca was able to fit their stone wall blocks with impossible angles that can be achieved by grinding, and so close that a knife blade cannot slid between the fitted edges They merely softened the stone to where it wa similar to very soft putty , placed the stone into position, then countered the softening, or nature did hmmmm