LDM why you cant get it !

[JackH]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

B,

Unfortunately there are times when answers get behind, and this is one of them.

Forgive me but when I had posted satellite photos on my screen it was reasonably visible. I had replaced my screen last year to a larger one, so what you see is obviously less visible than what I have.

1) good point on the Caverna Con Casa, and no answer for that, but I would think the Spanish version (Peralta) ?. But El Sombrero ! Why does Sombrero have to be the traditional high crown, big wide brimmed w/curl hat ? Sombrero means "Hat". I have a 4X beaver silver belly with a flat crown that looks more like Red Mountain when set flat than the traditional Mexican sombrero.

The as the late great Alphonso Bedoya said, "Badges? We ain't got no badges. We don't need no badges! I don't have to show you any stinkin' badges!" (sombrero mexicano hat)

But Peralta was of Spanish origin. And I would think Peons would be wearing their hats at this angle while standing looking forward. As they were looking for the Oro, their eyes would have been on the ground in most cases, and their hats tilted to cover their neck while bent over. I would also think that a great General would not neglect the opportunity to Honor his Labor Force for their efforts.

In Spanish, the word sombrero means any hat with a brim, such as the traditional sombrero cordobés from Cordoba, Spain. It derives from the Spanish word sombra, meaning "shade" or "shadow"; thus a literal English translation would be "shade maker". Spanish speakers outside Mexico refer to what English speakers call a sombrero as a sombrero mexicano ("Mexican hat"). In Mexico, it is known as sombrero charro, since "sombrero" is the actual word for any hat with a brim.


(photo) Red Mountain (Sombrero ?)

Answer to the rest of your msg will take additional photos which I will do immediately.

Red Mountain is a religious symbol to the Pima-Maricopa. Those things are not for sale at any price.....Jack

 

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[JackH]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Blindbowman I really wanted to reply to your heartfelt statement, but it has been removed.......Jack

 

[EE THr]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Jack---

Thanks for the reply.

Although my post wasn't addressed to you directly, anybody can comment on or reply to anyone's posts, and they often do. It's a community discussion, and all posts are appreciated.

On the top of each quote box, there is a date, indicating when the quoted content was made, and the number of that post, to enable people to reference it. If only part of the post was quoted, the entire message can be read that way, to get the full idea of what was being said, in case someone missed it.

Hello,

I believe Waltz was supposed to be Nearsighted as well so...........

Thanks,
Travis

Y'know, I always wondered how in the heck he ever found the dang thing, to begin with.

And now you've just added to that!


Wherever it is, it's supposed to be some place that nobody would ever look. Isn't he supposed to have said one time that, "no miner would ever look there," and another time, "no cowboy would ever find it"?

So, why did he look there?


And if it's supposed to be down a "slippery slope," then he wasn't just plodding along somewhere, and happened to notice something. So then what the heck was he doing when he found it?

People sometimes don't check the forum for a couple of days, in this case Travis, living near the Supers, may be there right now. I'm hoping to hear his theory about what I asked, when he checks in again.

Good hunting to all....

 

[JackH]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

B,

ATV trails: one trail stops short of Funnel, other splits off up towards east face, both have a stop point.

In most cases look above the red line to follow the trails in.

Stop point lower trail in relationship to the Funnel.

Stop point upper trail in relationship to map #17 entrance in relationship to pack animal reference

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Why does Sombrero have to be the traditional high crown, big wide brimmed hat

Excellent point - and a point that is prevalent in the entire LDM "mystery". Why to the Sombero, why to the 3 red hills, why to the "pointed peak".
None of them have to be "the" answer.

There are, literally, dozens of red hills, dozens of pointed peaks - all in the Superstitions.

As for the atv trails - especially stopping short of the Funnel you refer to, and the split-offs, etc. It bodes very well for being "run-off" lines, rather than a trail.

I'm curious at to why you think atv trails, rather than vehicle trails or foot trails?

Beth

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

EE and JackH,

I am still here

I am probably not going to the mountains until next week sometime. Less people out there during the week......other than some "known" Dutchhunters i have noticed.......

I dont want to presume, but i thought the conversation that EE and i were having wasnt pertaining to JackH's theory about Red Mountain, that is why i quit posting. I didnt want his post to get "overrun" with other posts, as i know how that can be frustrating.

EE,
If you would like to start another post, i will be willing to exchange on it. I fear if i tell you the "miner" part, it will open up a whole different discussion that may not belong on this post.

No offense to Jack but, i am having trouble with the logic on this post so i dont feel like i can ad anything to the Red Mountain theory that would help out.

Thanks again and sorry Jack if we dragged your topic "off base",
Travis

 

[EE THr]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Travis---

OK. That makes sense.

 

[EE THr]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Jack---

I had forgotten that this was your topic. I apologize for so many tangential posts, Jack.

 

[JackH]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Beth,

I'll mail you my glass's. I have enlarged this series of photos so there would be no doubt. I can only post so many photos, it is time consuming.

Tell me where you would like me to enlarge a photo anywhere in the area I have presented as atv tracks, OK I got it ! Here it is, last time Beth.

 

[JackH]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Excellent point - and a point that is prevalent in the entire LDM "mystery". Why to the Sombero, why to the 3 red hills, why to the "pointed peak".
None of them have to be "the" answer.

There are, literally, dozens of red hills, dozens of pointed peaks - all in the Superstitions.

Beth,

My theory is:

1) Peralta always left a trail eventually sweeping north out of the Superstitions.

2) Peralta's last expedition. Was his most successful find. He had come back to it more than once. To his demise.

3) is Red Mountain is the last of Peralta's trail ? I think so.

4) most successful mine, expedition that never returned from the most successful mine, end of Peralta's trail (Red Mountain !)

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Jack,

I don't need your glasses - I have my own, thanks.

I see the area you are talking about - I saw it before. Apparently, I'm not allowed to disagree that it might not be atv tracks?

I guess I should explain that, I don't put too much stock in Google earth, mostly because several areas that I have seen on Google Earth, haven't matched what I saw on the ground.

When it comes to the desert areas - it takes "boots on the ground" to really know what you are looking at - I base this on only one simple thing -
been there, done that. Even my HOUSE and driveway do not look right on Google Earth. It looks like there is a road where there is not.

You should see our old place in Arizona - what it looks like on Google Earth. In fact, here is a picture, just as an example.

Beth

Btw, you are right - there are dozens and dozens of hills in the supers.

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Hola amigos,

Just a point of observation, which would tend to negate Red Mountain as the site of the LDM; the incident of Dick Holmes trailing Waltz and getting 'caught' by Waltz on Tortilla creek, would mean they had passed Red Mountain or where they ought to have turned off (northerly) to get there.

Oroblanco

 

[JackH]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Beth,

ATV because:

1) the terrain is too complicated for anything else, 2 wheels wide (4 wheels)
2) turn around area is too small for anything else

I agree that some of this trail is water washed, only because the original track was caused by an atv.

The desert land of south western United States is the most delicate we have. It takes hundreds of years to mature. If these atv's never come back, it will be centuries before it settles again, but with the influence the atv's have introduced.

Arroyo's: I grew up in southern California, I know all about arroyo's. Todays kids play their video games, I spent my youth in the canyons and arroyo's of early Montebello, Calif. below Monterey Park (1955-63). I have found things that belong in musuems in arroyo's after a good rain/wash. Picking or trying to pick cactus apples/prickly pears , which had the most beautiful flower I have ever seen to this day, along the arroyo's. We would play in the foot hills and come back to the cactus headed home as the flowers had already started to close. Knowing that the fruit and most beautiful flower had a short life was saddening.

But I owe you this one Beth, I believe I discovered another area covered by Indian hand to desguise the frontal area of approach to Red Mountain. This was only due to your ability to disagree with my assessment of atv tracks.

Thank you......Jack

 

[JackH]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

This installment is devoted to Beth, Mrs Oroblanco.

If it wasn't for her, I would not have found another area I believe disguised by Indian hand after the Peralta Massacre Legend.

It takes hundreds of years to have the desert settle in the southwest United States once it has been disturbed. I believe this is another area at Red Mountain that shows the hand of that Legend.

For a reference in this thread I have given this rock formation the name of 'Beths Rock'.

What I see is an extreme amount of desert sand covering up the face of this rock, the side of approach of Red Mountain from Ft Mc Dowell Rd from sw.

The first photo in relationship to Red Mountain
Second photo, whats wrong with this picture.
Third photo lines the desert sand introduced to the rock.
Forth photo lines removed
Fifth photo standing back
Look back at a distance

1) Beth's rock Red Mountain
2) Whats wrong with this picture
3) Lined area of question
4) area with no lines
5) standing back to the side
6) look back at a distance

 

[JackH]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Hola Oroblanco,

I am at a disadvantage on that story of Dick Holms & Waltz. I believe I read it, but don't remember it. Cerveza loco.
I believe Waltz still had a hobby, still lookn' for the other buried Peralta mines.
I would think that Waltz was the best survivor as he lived out his life, one of the few successful prospectors at his own level.

Gracia's amigo.......Jack

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Jack H wrote

I am at a disadvantage on that story of Dick Holms & Waltz. I believe I read it, but don't remember it. Cerveza loco.

It is in the Holmes manuscript, which has been debated in another thread; even if true however it is possible that Waltz knew he was being trailed for quite some time and may have been misleading his trailer, or he was on the direct route to his mine and thus would have passed the point where one would logically turn to head for Red mountain. We can't know at this point in time.

I posted in another thread, another issue that may have bearing on the true location of the LDM; that is if we take note of where Waltz went to purchase supplies, Adams Mill which is near Florence; likewise where Weiser turned up when he fled from the mine after being ambushed there, which was at the Pima villages on the Gila river, not that far from Adams Mill in fact. There must be good reason why Waltz chose to go to Adams Mill rather than to Phoenix, or Ft McDowell etc and why Weiser fled in the same direction. It would seem logical that if Phoenix were closer to the mine or if Ft McDowell were closer, wouldn't you think that is where Waltz would go to get supplies to replace those ruined by the mule, and that a wounded man fleeing from enemies would run to the closest aid and succor? I may be way off base here with this reasoning, but it does lead to doubts about the mine being located in the western end of the Superstitions or near Ft McDowell, that by the words of Waltz and Weiser, supplies were obtained at Adams mill and Weiser fled in the same direction when attacked and desperately wounded.

Oroblanco

 

[coazon de oro]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Hell O Jack H,

I don't think that is the work of man, but rather the work of the prevailing winds. Just my opinion though.

Homar P. Olivarez

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Coazon de oro,

I tend to agree with exactly that opinion.

I find that, with google earth, my eyes quickly start glazing over when folks start tipping things on its side, as google tends to made things look like a melted earth when folks do that.

Here is the regular look at Mt. McDowell, by google and by one of my pics.

A note here - you will notice that there are buildings and a canal and a few other items near the mountain - maybe a good reason for a truck or two to be in the area.

B

 

[JackH]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Not a truck, the trail of the tires are to wide and too close together for a large vehicle.

I may be at another advantage.
I had installed a graphics card for gaming a few years ago. The Clarity of my screen and depth along with the size of my screen is most likely a big advantage. I wish all those who question my atv statements could see this on my screen. I showed this to my S/O and asked if she thought I could be mistaken for the atv tracks being anything else. She said it was absolutely clear to her that they were motorized tracks, and agreed that it must be an atv with the few additional clues as why I think so. She has not been following this thread, rarely uses this PC, & makes a good living with one elsewhere.

Additionally, google earth has an upgrade option, a few years ago I purchased it. It allowed for better resolution in some circumstances.

Today the Resolution on this subject of Red Mountain is much better than it ever has been, and the upgrade is long past. I would think the camera's used today for satellite imagery is responsible.

I can see the transformers on the transmission lines along Ft Mc Dowell Rd., as well as the lines from pole to pole. I can see the Saguaro Cactus standing and the shadows they are casting. I can see dirt bike tracks and rabbit trails. Am I at an advantage ? You tell me, I don't know what you can see !

Though I have not located any beer cans yet.......J

 

[JackH]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

ATV's,

Nearest property .4 mile away.

I would say it is a pig pen by the color and shape of the animal lying down.

Tandem pedal boat (side by side) Sam's Club @ $900

Sure looks like a cannon to me, but that's just my opinion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordnance_QF_6_pounder