LDM, OZ, & CALALUS

Somero you have hit the nail on the head. I have NO idea why Starman1 continues on with this distortion. :BangHead:


Starman1 wrote
Perhaps you need to revisit what you said:

<Oroblanco posted earlier>
... can actually be harmful. We need only look to the rise of the Nazis and their invented mythology of the Aryans to see how a fantasy version of history can become very destructive indeed. I am NOT proposing that you or any of the other believers in Calalus are anything like the Nazis, just using that extreme example to show how such a fiction can be very destructive; ala a belief in some "special" or "superior" race of people, whom have been persecuted and the next step is the drive to "restore" this mythical empire.


One might point out that the people that survived the holocast have never said that surviving produced a special or superior race of people who are intent on the next step. Which seems to be restoring a mythical empire. Since this is the case what you are doing is using language in a confusing and superficial way that allows you to combine certain things, the people and their history with the Nazi myths of the Aryans in such a way that bears no relationship to reality. This invention of your thinking is far more dangerous than anything we have ever written. No Roy there is no similarity except in your mind. What exactly did you say?



You continue to misrepresent and misinterpret what was written. What part of, "

I am NOT proposing that you or any of the other believers in Calalus are anything like the Nazis, just using that extreme example to show how such a fiction can be very destructive"

do you not grasp? ???

Starman1
also wrote
Roy lets see where this takes us. In the previous paragraph the history of the people is a fiction similar to something the Nazis would favor. Now the history of the people is real and its descendants are deserving of criminal prosecution for caring for their dead. So what is it? Is it real or is it fiction. Or perhaps you believe it is both at the same time allowing you to jump back and forth between positions depending on the needs of the moment. Who needs logic in such a universe. Perhaps you should ponder how is it possible for all of this to be real and at the same time nothing that was done was illegal. Who knows maybe certain arrangements were always in place to preserve the history of the people that were advantageous for everyone involved. Perhaps the relocation of the library and our people caring for it was always the preferred ending considering what might happen if its contents were revealed.

 
None of the story parts including survivors of Rhoda having descendants around today, the heroic saving fight, the "library of Oz", watchers, caretakers OR gatekeepers, are found in the rather brief inscriptions on the Calalus artifacts; you or your group, have added all that on. For the benefit of our readers, here is a translation of the inscriptions from the Calalus artifacts:

-+- Translation of Inscriptions -+-

The inscription of a cross designated as 1.A is translated as
follows:

A.D. 900(?), Jan. 1
We are carried forth over the sea to Calalus,
an unknown land, to a people ruling widely
The Toltesus, Silvanus were lead over
Theodorus brings up his forces at the City
Rhoda and more than seven hundred are captured
No gold shall be taken from the city
Theodorus, a man of great courage, rules fourteen years
James rules six years
With God's help nothing need be feared
In the name of Israel
OL

-+- Death of Israel in "the War." -+-

The chronology of the supposed dynasties of Calalus is translated
as follows from another Latin inscription:

From the Beginning. A.D. 790 to 900.
Nothing but by the cross, by suffering.
Israel died in the war.
Pray for the soul of Israel.
May God be with us as with our fathers.
May the earth be light unto thee.
Israel, defender of the faith, adds honor to ancestral honor.
Israel reigns 67 years.
Israel II reigns 6 years.
Israel II started to reign when 26 years old.
A war of extermination.
Either to conquer or to die.
He flourished in his ancestral honor from day to day.
Prepare for either event but hope is not yet crushed.
By the grace of God.
Time having elapsed, from adversity comes
the source and origin of our miseries, the
last day comes and the inevitable time.
I am present.
The Lord be with you.

-+- Chronicle is Specific -+-

Another of the texts is translated as follows:

Benjamin was king of the people. They came from Seine to Rome.
The bravest of the Gauls. He came to the assistance of the
people to lay the foundation of the city. He built a wall
around the city to resist the enemy. Benjamin mighty in
strength he filled the multitude with religion. He was slain
by the Thebans. I heard this from my father five hundred years
after, behind the mountain. In memory of his father.

860 A.D. Israel the 3rd was banished since he had liberated
the Toltesus. He first broke the custom. The earth trembled.
Fear overwhelmed the hearts of mortals in the third year after
he fled.

They betook themselves within the city and kept themselves
within their walls. You shall not bury or burn a dead man in
the city.

Before the city extended a plain, hills encompassed the city.
It is a hundred years since Jacobus was king. Jacobus was busy
in the front line. He attended to everything, fought much in
person and often struck down the enemy. Israel gave his
attention to the appointment of priests. Life is to us a
people of extensive sway.

An unknown land A.D. 895. May I be able to accomplish my
endeavors to serve the king. It is uncertain how long life
will continue. There are many things which may be said. While
the war was raging three thousand men were slain, the leaders
with their chiefs were taken, nothing but peace was sought.
God ordains all things.
O.L.

A brief inscription which bears no signature refers briefly to
the transatlantic voyage of the Dark Age Arizonians as follows:

We are carried over the sea to Roman Calalus, an unknown land.
They came in the year 775. Theodorus ruled the people.
Borrowed from

http://www.conspiracybomb.com/puzzlingrelics2.htm under Fair Use provisions.

Where do you see anything about survivors continuing on to this day, or any heroic rear guard action in which these "holy" relics are DUMPED into a "marshy" <? ? ? ?> area, or anything about caretakers, a "library of Oz", or Gatekeepers?
That last inscription may be a key to understand the thinking of the creator of these artifacts; "Theodorus ruled the people" - in 775 AD, the ruler of the Byzantine empire, which considered itself the surviving Roman empire, was Constantine V. Several Byzantine emperors were named Theodorus and the creator may have guessed at the name of the emperor, using a name however which dates to the 12th century emperors.

Another major flaw in the Calalus story is in the supposed wars with the Toltecs. The Toltec empire was not located in, or even NEAR Tucson Arizona; here is a map:
AK-103TheToltecEmpire.gif
<Borrowed from
http://www.fofweb.com/Electronic_Images/Maps/AK-103TheToltecEmpire.gif under Fair Use provisions>

It is against Federal, State and International laws to dig up, remove, smuggle out of the country, ancient artifacts and human remains. You claim this happened even though it is describing serious crimes. I suspect that it did NOT happen, that this is a fiction, and hence the relation to mythical Aryan "history". Otherwise those involved in such illegal acts likely face criminal prosecution.
 

To clarify one point for you, I am not a "prospective" author, but a published author. If you simply look up my name you can verify it. In case you do not know it, it is Roy A. Decker.

 
I have left the door open on Calalus deliberately, since we may never know who or whom created them, nor their real purpose. I have serious doubts about their authenticity, from the "coincidences" of the Latin, the wrong age of the caliche in which they were found, the complete lack of supporting documentation from the Old World, the complete lack of supporting evidence found anywhere else but at that site on Silverbell road, to the sheer unlikelyhood of a Roman/Jewish expedition to found a colony, passing a most powerful Arab empire whose ships controlled the Mediterranean and especially the straits of Gibraltar, in 775 AD.

The basic story of Calalus is without supporting evidence other than the artifacts found at the site on Silverbell road. I have seen no verification of anything found in Nevada linked to these artifacts. The story line put forth by Starman1 and his supporters is not found in the inscriptions on the artifacts, nothing about survivors, watchers, caretakers, or gatekeepers, and in particular not a word about any "library of Oz". It may be harmless to believe in this story, but I cannot put any credence in it without considerably more evidence.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek. Sorry for yet another LONG winded post.
Oroblanco

:coffee2: :coffee2: :coffee: :coffee2:
 

Roy,

Have you noticed that many of the facts for today's story come directly from the Lost Dutchman and the LDM Forums? I believe we are all supplying the material for Ben's book.
He simply spins that information into his own story.

Take care,

Joe
 

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Roy,

Have you noticed that many of the facts for today's story come directly from the Lost Dutchman and the LDM Forums? I believe we are all supplying the material for Ben's book.
He simply spins that information into his own story.

Take care,

Joe


Ye gads Joe - you remind me of the deal with the "time portal" and guided dinosaur hunts in the Superstitions! And sure enough there is a dinosaur depicted on one of the Calalus artifacts, which point we have not yet addressed with Mr Davis. I sure HOPE you are wrong about this.

If/when Mr Davis does publish his book, I now want a copy and will read it over very carefully; hope that I do not find any "errors" in it where folks are wrongly listed as approving of the Calalus artifacts as genuine, like we have seen repeated deliberate misconstruing of statements posted.

I hope all is well with you folks,
Roy

:coffee2: :coffee2: :coffee2: :coffee:
 

HAD your :coffee2: yet, please continue, very interesting in some ways, I don't remember starman saying anything about writing a book,were did that come from? np:cat:
 

HAD your :coffee2: yet, please continue, very interesting in some ways, I don't remember starman saying anything about writing a book,were did that come from? np:cat:

From the power of deduction. :thumbsup:

:coffee2: :coffee2: :coffee2: :coffee:
 

Oroblanco wrote :

" Another major flaw in the Calalus story is in the supposed wars with the Toltecs. The Toltec empire was not located in, or even NEAR Tucson Arizona "

At Toltec Empire: 300-600 is written how

" The Toltec people were an amalgam of people from southern Latin America that came together as one to form the Teotihuacan Empire. The empire grew to include the Pacific Coastal Chiapas and Guatemala, the Yucatan Peninsula, and much of Northern and Western Mexico.
"

The people who went to Calalus have mixed origins from the Bizantine Empire . They were Greeks and Hebrews . The first leader was a Greek ( Theodorus - his name means in Greek " God's gift " ) but the next were Hebrews . Maybe they had a competitiom between the origin of the leader and this is described in the text wich says how " Benjamin was slain by the Thebans " . This " civil " war made them vulnerable against the Toltecs .
The text " No gold shall be taken from the city " shows how they came to find and cashed gold . They didn't write about any transport of gold back " home " .


 

Marius,
I have a few questions for you:

1: Do you accept the Calalus artifacts as genuine?

2: Do you accept the story as genuine?

3: Can you show us some evidence of Toltecs in the Tucson, Arizona area, that dates to the 700-900 AD time period?

4: I posted a map showing the Toltec empire earlier, it did not extend into Arizona. How did the Calalus colonists have battles with them, if the Toltecs never were in Arizona?

Here is another map of the Toltec empire, showing the region they inhabited from 200 BC to 1100 AD, click on it for larger image:
Toltec_empire_1000_ad.gif

Notice that it does not extend near Arizona.

Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

:coffee2: :coffee2: :coffee: :coffee2:
 

Oroblanco

1: Do you accept the Calalus artifacts as genuine?

Yes , I do , Are just artifacts , not weapons .

2: Do you accept the story as genuine?

Yes , I do . They went secretly to conquer a specific region and to the end when they were expelled . wanted to leave their fingerprint . Just for the History .

3: Can you show us some evidence of Toltecs in the Tucson, Arizona area, that dates to the 700-900 AD time period?

Yes , I can . The Tucson Artifacts . Show how in this region were Toltecs , but not how they ( the Toltecs ) lived in this region .

4: I posted a map showing the Toltec empire earlier, it did not extend into Arizona. How did the Calalus colonists have battles with them, if the Toltecs never were in Arizona?

I believe the Toltecs have the same interest in this region like many other folks over the centuries . They had chosen to live in a fertile region , but they had the control of the other " goods " around the Central America .
The text " Israel the 3rd was banished since he had liberated the Toltesus." on Artifacts shows how the colony had used Toltecs as slaves for their " activitiies " . This means how the Toltecs were somewhere around .
 

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My wife read a story about lizard people who raped a woman in a cave in the superstitions. I laughed and she said laugh now, cry later. I don't dare let her read about the artifacts. Just because you read something does not make it true.
 

Oroblanco wrote :

" Another major flaw in the Calalus story is in the supposed wars with the Toltecs. The Toltec empire was not located in, or even NEAR Tucson Arizona "

At Toltec Empire: 300-600 is written how

" The Toltec people were an amalgam of people from southern Latin America that came together as one to form the Teotihuacan Empire. The empire grew to include the Pacific Coastal Chiapas and Guatemala, the Yucatan Peninsula, and much of Northern and Western Mexico.
"

The people who went to Calalus have mixed origins from the Bizantine Empire . They were Greeks and Hebrews . The first leader was a Greek ( Theodorus - his name means in Greek " God's gift " ) but the next were Hebrews . Maybe they had a competitiom between the origin of the leader and this is described in the text wich says how " Benjamin was slain by the Thebans " . This " civil " war made them vulnerable against the Toltecs .
The text " No gold shall be taken from the city " shows how they came to find and cashed gold . They didn't write about any transport of gold back " home " .



Marius,

While the Toltec's did trade into Arizona, as well as other locations in America's Southwest, their empire did not extend that far. Roy is correct that they created their empire in the Northeastern Valley Of Mexico. That is where they primarily flourished between AD 150 and 750.

There are many books about the Toltecs even though they did not have a written language. They were a heavy influence on the Aztec native history.

The Calalus story is not feasible if you read the history of the Toltecs. You may have to leave Google to get a good understanding of the people.

Good luck,

Joe
 

Problem with Google is if you keep searching you'll eventually find "information" that better suits your ideas...............Then again everything you read on the internet is "True" :laughing7:

Now where did that article go about flying pigs.
 

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Thank you Marius for your answers; the Calalus story is a nice romantic tale, but it just doesn't hold up. The Toltecs were not really that interested in gold or silver, and for that matter there are multiple problems with the Calalus colonists. Where is their city? How many were there? One line of the inscriptions mentions "three thousand" dead, if the Calalus colonists were that numerous, there would be a record in the Old World of their departure. It would not be a secret.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
 

Marius,

While the Toltec's did trade into Arizona, as well as other locations in America's Southwest, their empire did not extend that far. Roy is correct that they created their empire in the Northeastern Valley Of Mexico. That is where they primarily flourished between AD 150 and 750.

There are many books about the Toltecs even though they did not have a written language. They were a heavy influence on the Aztec native history.

The Calalus story is not feasible if you read the history of the Toltecs. You may have to leave Google to get a good understanding of the people.

Good luck,

Joe

Joe

Don't be absolute . The History is an open file and changes with every new discovery .
 

Thank you Marius for your answers; the Calalus story is a nice romantic tale, but it just doesn't hold up. The Toltecs were not really that interested in gold or silver, and for that matter there are multiple problems with the Calalus colonists. Where is their city? How many were there? One line of the inscriptions mentions "three thousand" dead, if the Calalus colonists were that numerous, there would be a record in the Old World of their departure. It would not be a secret.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

Roy

That war/fight was not for the gold . The gold still to be somewhere there . This fight was for prestige . When the colony had banished the King Israel the third , made him a smart and angry enemy . He had the Toltecs with his side and after few years he organized that fight . He didn't want the gold because he couldn't go back to Europe . After the Israel the third none King was recorded in the colony 's history . So , there was an anarchy , a very bad situation . I believe Iisrael the third , after that fight , remained in the region and helped the Toltecs to update the knowledge in their
survival activities .
I believe the city was close to the Dinosaur Mountain near Phoenix . And about how many were , don't forget how they lived there about five generations . If they were in the beginning a few hundred , maybe the number of three thousand is possible .
I believe was a secret expedition and remained secret .
 

Joe

Don't be absolute . The History is an open file and changes with every new discovery .

Marius,

100-3000 people were not enough to enslave the Toltec people. Your theory to Roy is filled with a number of assumptions which are not supported by history nor archaeology. You might want to study:icon_study::icon_study::icon_study: that history, as it pertains to this subject.

Good luck,

Joe
 

Marius,

100-3000 people were not enough to enslave the Toltec people. Your theory to Roy is filled with a number of assumptions which are not supported by history nor archaeology. You might want to study:icon_study::icon_study::icon_study: that history, as it pertains to this subject.

Good luck,

Joe

Joe

You forgot how a few hundred Spanish warriors with their war skills and modern weapons , had conquered and enslaved the Incas and the Aztecs .

The History in books is very hard to be re edited . In the Internet the History is updated in real time .
 

Joe

You forgot how a few hundred Spanish warriors with their war skills and modern weapons , had conquered and enslaved the Incas and the Aztecs .

The History in books is very hard to be re edited . In the Internet the History is updated in real time .

Marius,

Is it your opinion that the people of Calalus were on a par with the Spanish, armor, weapons and training of the Conquistadors? Were they armed with lead weapons, such as what was found? Why were the artifacts found, but no other trace of the people ever found? Calalus is a ghost story.

Good luck,

Joe
 

Marius,

Is it your opinion that the people of Calalus were on a par with the Spanish, armor, weapons and training of the Conquistadors? Were they armed with lead weapons, such as what was found? Why were the artifacts found, but no other trace of the people ever found? Calalus is a ghost story.

Good luck,

Joe

Joe

The Artifacts are the only but invulnerable evidence which prove how is not a ghost story . If was a secret expedition , maybe somebody have " cleaned " the evidence of their presence . The Artifacts were hidden and " escaped " from the " cleaner "'s sight .This is the most appropriate excuse for the lack of evidence .

I don't try to convince you to believe how the Artifacts belong to an accurate event ,but yours and many others suspicion , helps only to remain the secret , a secret .

Take care

PS

I believe how the warriors and their leaders in the early European Empires , were more skilled in the war tactics and weapons handling than the Spaniards . Don't forget how their war tactics were used in many modern wars .
 

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Joe

The Artifacts are the only but invulnerable evidence which prove how is not a ghost story . If was a secret expedition , maybe somebody have " cleaned " the evidence of their presence . The Artifacts were hidden and " escaped " from the " cleaner "'s sight .This is the most appropriate excuse for the lack of evidence .

I don't try to convince you to believe how the Artifacts belong to an accurate event ,but yours and many others suspicion , helps only to remain the secret , a secret .

Take care

PS

I believe how the warriors and their leaders in the early European Empires , were more skilled in the war tactics and weapons handling than the Spaniards . Don't forget how their war tactics were used in many modern wars .

Marius,

Can you tell me what books, manuscripts or papers you have read to form your opinions on Calalus and the Toltecs?

Just trying to understand where you are coming from on this topic.

Thanks,

Joe
 

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