LDM, OZ, & CALALUS

[Oroblanco]

Oroblanco, the 1970's was a time of great discoveries, and a lot of great questions being asked of officials by old prospectors and treasure hunters and others,who at the time were living in or near certain areas,these questions were never answered,the only thing that happened was through the interior dept and blm, there answer was legislation through publication,instead of answering the people we will just run everyone off and we wont have any more questions asked and no one watching whats going on. np

I have seen a LOT of public land get "locked up" since the 1970s, millions of acres in fact, the latter part of which decade I was still just a prospector so did not see the problem for some time. Not to mention that prospecting was still allowed in Wilderness areas for a number of years. If you are suggesting that some Calalus site/ruins are now in a 'closed' area, there is nothing preventing someone from hiking in to take photos of the site. That would go some ways to support a real Calalus and not a fiction. However if you are referring to Circlestone, I am afraid the site is far too old and the wrong culture. No Roman/Samaritan/Hebrew artifacts or inscriptions have ever been found there, as far as I know.

I would like to see some Old World documentation to support this legend of a whole colony departing for the New World, I think that would lend some weight to the idea of Calalus in Arizona.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

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[Not Peralta]

Oroblanco, I know you are interested in this subject, so am I , I have been asking simple questions also but only getting few results. the one main factor in the subject of who was here is
the trident petroglyphs now being found all over the world, even in America, these petroglyphs have been ignored for a long time,but have a long history, I cant even start to tell the stories
involved in this subject, these petroglyphs are being found mainly around trading centers and mineral sites, close to water and not so close to water, they have been found in nm,az,ut, co,and as
south as Bolivia, so far I have dated them back to 232b.c., to ptolemy3rd , they have every thing to do with what mysteries you haven't been able to put your hands on over the years,and im not just talking about calalus, im talking about before, during,and after, the research is most gratifying , please explore it, np

 

[starman 1]

Calalus

Hello Roy,

It seems your position on the Latin is that it was etched on the artifacts in modern times. In your post you state:

"Thank you for your thoughtful reply. For me, it is too much coincidence that virtually every word (of the Latin) on the Calalus artifacts can be found in a Latin text book from the 1920s".

Perhaps the following post by Mr. Hardaker might loosen that position up a bit: Archeological.org site 10/09/2010

"An artifact found under a 50-year old Mesquite tree provides a maximum date of ca. 1874. Also, the artifacts were scattered over a 2500-foot area on an eroding terrace, and then covered up all together, buried between three to six feet below the modern surface. There was absolutely no evidence of pits dug to plant the pieces under the surface; this is verified in the photographs and by multiple professional accounts during the discoveries, including comments by Dr. Neil Judd who personally excavated two of the pieces; Judd was a nephew of UAz’s Dr. Byron Cummings, and a Smithsonian archaeologist working at Chaco Canyon. To do all that earthmoving, an army begins to make sense".

Photographs of the tree and analysis can be found in the Bent work pages 92, 87-88,89. In addition to this there were reports in the Bent work that artifacts had been found before the excavation. It seems these artifacts were found sometime in the 1870`s. In fact Cummings believed the reports based on his interviews. It is a bit comical that it seems several swords were found and used by children to play with.

Furthermore if one believes the date of the artifacts creation was post 1920 then you have to buy into the position the artifacts were planted which at least to me is not credible.

Your question regarding the lack of documentation regarding the voyage of discovery is a good one. The settlers of Calalus did not come here for well what we might consider an honorable reason. Basically this was a treasure hunting expedition based on the information that was available to them from the unpublished sections of the Critias. The voyage was a secret to begin with and much of it stays secret still today. Other than the records we maintain the largest record cache is maintained by the Vatican.

As far as artifacts go there have been on going efforts by various organizations for years to sweep the southwest clean. Having said that the Snaketown site only requires a little luck and a shovel. Of course Eldorado Canyon is a hot spot.

Good luck to you in your efforts and it is refreshing to have a reasonable conversation even if the subject matter appears quite unreasonable.


Hello N.P.

Good to see you are doing better. Good luck to you.

Your comments about the tridents are well taken. I believe on the Tucson Artifacts you will find tridents on artifacts 7A, 18-A and 18B. I am sure you already know this but maybe some folks don't. The tridents that I am aware of were a part of the discovery of the continent by a more ancient people. In the Platonic dialogue Timeaus the following is said:

"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent. Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia".

For these purposes the important phrase is the reference to the surrounding land "may be truly called a boundless continent". Now look at the Tucson Artifact that describes Calalus as an unknown land. The unpublished portions of the Critias refers to Atlantis as the island kingdom with Calalus being their colony for the lack of a better word in the new world. Our people simply piggy backed on the expression and used it to describe their colony, and rightfully so. Calalus was a name they knew well but they did not know the land it referred to only the story of great wealth and power that could be found there. The tridents are a message from the past that simply says they were here.

Good luck to you and yours.


Starman

 

[Oroblanco]

Starman wrote

Hello Roy,

It seems your position on the Latin is that it was etched on the artifacts in modern times. In your post you state:

"Thank you for your thoughtful reply. For me, it is too much coincidence that virtually every word (of the Latin) on the Calalus artifacts can be found in a Latin text book from the 1920s".

Perhaps the following post by Mr. Hardaker might loosen that position up a bit: Archeological.org site 10/09/2010

"An artifact found under a 50-year old Mesquite tree provides a maximum date of ca. 1874. Also, the artifacts were scattered over a 2500-foot area on an eroding terrace, and then covered up all together, buried between three to six feet below the modern surface. There was absolutely no evidence of pits dug to plant the pieces under the surface; this is verified in the photographs and by multiple professional accounts during the discoveries, including comments by Dr. Neil Judd who personally excavated two of the pieces; Judd was a nephew of UAz’s Dr. Byron Cummings, and a Smithsonian archaeologist working at Chaco Canyon. To do all that earthmoving, an army begins to make sense".

Photographs of the tree and analysis can be found in the Bent work pages 92, 87-88,89. In addition to this there were reports in the Bent work that artifacts had been found before the excavation. It seems these artifacts were found sometime in the 1870`s. In fact Cummings believed the reports based on his interviews. It is a bit comical that it seems several swords were found and used by children to play with.

Furthermore if one believes the date of the artifacts creation was post 1920 then you have to buy into the position the artifacts were planted which at least to me is not credible.

Your question regarding the lack of documentation regarding the voyage of discovery is a good one. The settlers of Calalus did not come here for well what we might consider an honorable reason. Basically this was a treasure hunting expedition based on the information that was available to them from the unpublished sections of the Critias. The voyage was a secret to begin with and much of it stays secret still today. Other than the records we maintain the largest record cache is maintained by the Vatican.

As far as artifacts go there have been on going efforts by various organizations for years to sweep the southwest clean. Having said that the Snaketown site only requires a little luck and a shovel. Of course Eldorado Canyon is a hot spot.

Good luck to you in your efforts and it is refreshing to have a reasonable conversation even if the subject matter appears quite unreasonable.


Hello N.P.

Good to see you are doing better. Good luck to you.

Your comments about the tridents are well taken. I believe on the Tucson Artifacts you will find tridents on artifacts 7A, 18-A and 18B. I am sure you already know this but maybe some folks don't. The tridents that I am aware of were a part of the discovery of the continent by a more ancient people. In the Platonic dialogue Timeaus the following is said:

"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent. Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia".

For these purposes the important phrase is the reference to the surrounding land "may be truly called a boundless continent". Now look at the Tucson Artifact that describes Calalus as an unknown land. The unpublished portions of the Critias refers to Atlantis as the island kingdom with Calalus being their colony for the lack of a better word in the new world. Our people simply piggy backed on the expression and used it to describe their colony, and rightfully so. Calalus was a name they knew well but they did not know the land it referred to only the story of great wealth and power that could be found there. The tridents are a message from the past that simply says they were here.

Good luck to you and yours.


Starman

What "unpublished portion of Critias" are you referring to? Hermocrates, which was a theoretical third dialogue? There is no evidence that Plato ever wrote Hermocrates, nor as far as I know, is there any "unpublished portion" of Critias in existence today. Can you expound on this? Any documentation that this unpublished portion exists? Thank you in advance.

Another point in particular, you wrote:

The settlers of Calalus did not come here for well what we might consider an honorable reason. Basically this was a treasure hunting expedition based on the information that was available to them from the unpublished sections of the Critias. The voyage was a secret to begin with and much of it stays secret still today. Other than the records we maintain the largest record cache is maintained by the Vatican.

Virtually every voyage of discovery, was in effect a "treasure hunt" and all of these voyages are well recorded in Old World sources, including the Norse, seeking new lands for colonization (a different kind of treasure) or Cortez seeking plunder and conquest. Even the "secret" voyages of Carthage became known, despite terrible legal punishments for revealing the knowledge to foreigners, hence we know of the voyages of Hanno and Himilco. If there were a seventh century AD exodus/expedition as Calalus proposes, the event would be recorded, and I can not buy that this record is kept a secret by the Vatican. The colonists would have been coming from the Byzantine empire, which fortunately we have much records of, yet there is nothing suggesting any kind of exodus as alleged by the Calalus story. Can you produce some evidence to support your contention that the Vatican is holding secret records of this quasi-Roman expedition in the seventh century AD? Thank you in advance,

Not Peralta - have to say that I am not convinced there is any linkage between any trident symbols found scattered about, with Calalus. The trident symbol was the sign of Poseidon, and a symbol of the ancient Greek city state of Syracusa. Finding a trident symbol might be evidence of Syracusan Greek visitors, which would almost certainly have to predate their Roman conquest in the second Punic war (200 BC) and thus nine centuries prior to the time period of Calalus. It was not a Christian nor Judaean symbol.

<ancient coin of Syracusa in Sicily, king Hieron II, 275 - 215 BC, showing prominent trident on reverse.

<borrowed under Fair Use provisions from http://www.ancientresource.com/images/greek/greek_coins/syracuse-2612b.jpg

None of this kind of argument <so far> is advancing the idea of Calalus as a reality IMHO. If neither of you can provide something more concrete then it appears we may be at loggerheads. Keep in mind that I live over 1000 miles from Arizona, and am not willing to trek into an ancient Hohokam or Sinagua Amerindian ruin(s) that is being proposed as Roman Calalus, I want to see some Old World record of this exodus if it ever happened, and perhaps some artifacts/inscriptions etc found outside of the site where the Calalus artifacts were found, that support Old World visitors/colonists having been in the southwest in the correct time period of 700-800 AD. Pointing to sites like Los Lunas, which almost certainly predates 700 AD and was obviously not written in Latin, does not support a real Calalus, so I hope you have more evidence, thank you both in advance.

Good luck and good hunting amigos I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
　

 

[cactusjumper]

Starman wrote


What "unpublished portion of Critias" are you referring to? Hermocrates, which was a theoretical third dialogue? There is no evidence that Plato ever wrote Hermocrates, nor as far as I know, is there any "unpublished portion" of Critias in existence today. Can you expound on this? Any documentation that this unpublished portion exists? Thank you in advance.

Another point in particular, you wrote:
[/SIZE]
Virtually every voyage of discovery, was in effect a "treasure hunt" and all of these voyages are well recorded in Old World sources, including the Norse, seeking new lands for colonization (a different kind of treasure) or Cortez seeking plunder and conquest. Even the "secret" voyages of Carthage became known, despite terrible legal punishments for revealing the knowledge to foreigners, hence we know of the voyages of Hanno and Himilco. If there were a seventh century AD exodus/expedition as Calalus proposes, the event would be recorded, and I can not buy that this record is kept a secret by the Vatican. The colonists would have been coming from the Byzantine empire, which fortunately we have much records of, yet there is nothing suggesting any kind of exodus as alleged by the Calalus story. Can you produce some evidence to support your contention that the Vatican is holding secret records of this quasi-Roman expedition in the seventh century AD? Thank you in advance,

Not Peralta - have to say that I am not convinced there is any linkage between any trident symbols found scattered about, with Calalus. The trident symbol was the sign of Poseidon, and a symbol of the ancient Greek city state of Syracusa. Finding a trident symbol might be evidence of Syracusan Greek visitors, which would almost certainly have to predate their Roman conquest in the second Punic war (200 BC) and thus nine centuries prior to the time period of Calalus. It was not a Christian nor Judaean symbol.

<ancient coin of Syracusa in Sicily, king Hieron II, 275 - 215 BC, showing prominent trident on reverse.
View attachment 1031636
<borrowed under Fair Use provisions from http://www.ancientresource.com/images/greek/greek_coins/syracuse-2612b.jpg

None of this kind of argument <so far> is advancing the idea of Calalus as a reality IMHO. If neither of you can provide something more concrete then it appears we may be at loggerheads. Keep in mind that I live over 1000 miles from Arizona, and am not willing to trek into an ancient Hohokam or Sinagua Amerindian ruin(s) that is being proposed as Roman Calalus, I want to see some Old World record of this exodus if it ever happened, and perhaps some artifacts/inscriptions etc found outside of the site where the Calalus artifacts were found, that support Old World visitors/colonists having been in the southwest in the correct time period of 700-800 AD. Pointing to sites like Los Lunas, which almost certainly predates 700 AD and was obviously not written in Latin, does not support a real Calalus, so I hope you have more evidence, thank you both in advance.

Good luck and good hunting amigos I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
[/FONT] 　

Roy,

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for supporting evidence for the existence of Calalus. Ben's "group" has always been long on story and short on any kind of reality. On the other hand, it's been a great story and sent us down many paths of research. In that respect, it is it's own reward.

Take care,

Joe

 

[sgtfda]

I've found it best to keep a open mind to all theories. Life is full of surprises.

 

[Springfield]

I've found it best to keep a open mind to all theories. Life is full of surprises.

Sarge, I hadn't realized that you were into quantum physics phenomena, i.e. all things are possible.

10 Mind-Bending Implications of the Many Worlds Theory - Listverse

 

[sgtfda]

Sarge, I hadn't realized that you were into quantum physics phenomena, i.e. all things are possible.

10 Mind-Bending Implications of the Many Worlds Theory - Listverse

I've seen a lot in my life. Just when you think you've seen or done it all BANG! So I keep a open mind. Picture a UFO flying over. Those inside posting on Tnet. Right Starman.

 

[starman 1]

The Way

Gentlemen:

Hello Roy,

I really enjoyed reading your response. I have to say I am still curious as to your belief regarding the artifacts. If after reviewing the evidence you still believe this is all a fraud, what point is there in going forward? Evidence will only take you so far and then you have to make a leap of faith as to whether or not this makes sense. We have always shown a willingness to show people the finish line but we will not carry someone over it. in this regard I agree with sgdfa, he provides clues and hints with photos of gold but his position is basically figure it out. Is his solution to the maps the correct one. I will say it is a solution and for him it works and if gold is the objective he definitely seems to have finished first.

Some have said to me that we have shared too much not to little. The clues we have given lead one person to the museum in South Africa, two others located the capital of Rhoda. The problem is not the lack of clues it lies elsewhere.

Why do you suppose folks have ventured into the southwest for centuries? Do you really believe the settlers of Calalus were the first here to look for the treasure the people found? Perhaps the unifying piece of the puzzle of Hidden Mountain and the Tucson Artifacts is that both groups were looking for the same thing. The same thing that led Coronado to the top of Coronado Mesa in his failed attempt to locate the library of Oz.

In terms of the Critias there are several complete copies of the dialogue still around. We have one, the Vatican, and surprisingly enough the Mormon Church. There are probably others out there but I would not expect one to show up on e-bay anytime soon. I would be surprised if the Vatican will share theirs.

As far as the Trident goes the pregnant phrase in the Timeaus says:

"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent. Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia".

Atlantis we are told is, "a great empire and rules over parts of the continent". That continent is the new world and Calalus is the name they gave it.

The tridents are from the explorers of Atlantis in the new world.

And what did these explorers leave us after taking the precious metals and other things? The library of Oz. Directions? Not sure we can say anything more than was posted several years ago:


"Years ago my father visited the Superstition Mountains with an archeologist friend from Harvard University. She was quite a lady. Dad was impressed with her work in Mexico. I tagged along hoping this would be a rather eventful trip. I was not disappointed.

We entered the range from Hierogllyphic Canyon, crossed Supersition Mountain and made our way to the saddle high above West Boulder Canyon. We camped there for the night. To the east was a wonderous view of Weaver`s Needle.

That night under an incredible sky my father shared with his friend the history of our people, the location of sites we would be visiting over the next few days and the history of the last days of Calalus that had been handed down from generation to generation. I will never forget his discussion of the creation of the Tucson Artifacts. They were made in the last days of the people in a small canyon, (Eldorado Canyon, Nevada) on the Colorado River. The artifacts were forged as a map home that one day might lead the descendents of Calalus back to their most holy site in the Superstitions. The relics were later dumped in a marshy area of Arizona to make room for living survivors of the holocast that befell the people. That is another history for another day.

Over the next several days we visited a number of sites and finally made our way to Horse Mesa on the Salt River. From there we entered several holy places and for days dad`s friend not only had the opportunity to study the people`s history but to also aquaint herself with the history of a more ancient people that were the reason the settlers of Calalus came to America to begin with.

I think dad was very interested in her thoughts on what she had seen and for many years she joined us and others to visit the range to protect and care for the most important historical site in the world. I too became her friend and when she passed away felt a loss that has never really been filled.

The trail we followed is the trail that is engraved on the Tucson Artifacts. The name of the holy site in the Superstitions is mentioned, many times on the artifacts but has never been recognized for what it is.

Mr. Hardaker,

I enjoyed reading your work, "The First American", not being an archaelogist most of it went over my head but I really found it fun. In terms of the Tucson Artifacts there are a number of symbols on them that has confused folks for years. That is intentional. Also there are symbols that go back to a root culture that is far older than well 10,000 years. I would keep in mind that the artifacts in Tucson both reveal and conceal. That is those artifacts contain a great deal of truth but could very well be a forgery. A very good one I might add. If they are that might suggest the real artifacts are safe with the people.

Roy, one day I hope you hike that trail and who knows maybe the next time you are in Fish Creek Canyon you will see what has always been there, the gate to Calalus and beyond.

Good luck and may the stars keep you safe.


Starman

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos;
This reply is very long, so I must beg your indulgence; I recommend refilling your coffee now if you intend to read the whole thing, thank you in advance.

Starman 1 wrote

Gentlemen:

Hello Roy,

I really enjoyed reading your response. I have to say I am still curious as to your belief regarding the artifacts. If after reviewing the evidence you still believe this is all a fraud, what point is there in going forward?

I was attempting to allow you and your supporters the greatest possible latitude, considering this discussion has gone on for several years now and the claim made that the Tucson artifacts held by the museum (in Tucson) are copies of the real ones. If there are real ones, then this story of an exodus and ensuing colony would have other evidence to support it, like a record of the exodus from the Byzantine empire or somewhere in the Old World, a few artifacts or relics or inscriptions found elsewhere in America and in particular the southwest, indicating this colony existed or that the people passed through. So far nothing has been presented to indicate there was an emigration from the Old World to match the Calalus story, and the closest to any kind of evidence corresponding to the correct time period would be St Brendan's voyage which is recorded in a most fanciful way <and being monks certainly not a viable colony>, or prince Madoc's voyage which is too late. There are also bits of evidence of accidental Arab visitors to America as well, but again too late to make the 700 AD time period and the wrong culture/people/language as well.

Starman 1 also wrote

Why do you suppose folks have ventured into the southwest for centuries? Do you really believe the settlers of Calalus were the first here to look for the treasure the people found? Perhaps the unifying piece of the puzzle of Hidden Mountain and the Tucson Artifacts is that both groups were looking for the same thing. The same thing that led Coronado to the top of Coronado Mesa in his failed attempt to locate the library of Oz.

I "suppose" the first Old World people to venture into the Southwest arrived in America by accident, as is recorded by Diodorus and Aristotle, or as in the example of the first Norseman to see America, Bjarni Herjulfsson. Powerful storms have carried ships across both the Atlantic and Pacific oceans, including in recent history. Further visits were for gold, silver, timber, furs and fish, and even one attempted colony (not Roman/Samaritan) which was withdrawn by order of the govt.

Starman 1 also wrote

In terms of the Critias there are several complete copies of the dialogue still around. We have one, the Vatican, and surprisingly enough the Mormon Church. There are probably others out there but I would not expect one to show up on e-bay anytime soon. I would be surprised if the Vatican will share theirs.

I don't know why you would assume that my main sources come from Ebay, and it is easy to say that such copies exist in places that are not accessible. I am very confident that if any other portion of Critias were found to exist, it would not be kept a secret. Even documents which have been suppressed by powerful forces for centuries, like the gospel of Judas, have come to light in recent times. The best hope for a complete document of Critias, if it was ever completed, may be in the library of Herculaneum, but we may not live long enough to see the recovered documents.

BBC News - Unlocking the scrolls of Herculaneum

Considering that Plutarch, writing in the first century AD and long before our time, stated that Plato never finished his work on Atlantis, this certainly suggests that any "unpublished portion" was already lost by 100 AD and we might add, if Plutarch is granted any credence, then there is no unpublished portion for it was never completed. However I had hoped that perhaps you had something to support the contention, as it would be a major coup to find any unpublished portion of Plato's works. Surprising new finds are made all the time.

　
I fail to see any mention of the Trident in Timaeus; while I am in complete agreement that the reference to the "true continent" which bounds the whole of the western ocean is the Americas, what exactly ties this to Calalus? Atlantis and Calalus are separated by some 10,200 years roughly) not to mention the cultural/linguistic gaps. It is POSSIBLE that the Trident was a symbol of Atlantis, but I doubt it on several grounds. Firstly, it is the symbol of Poseidon, one of the Olympian gods of top ranks, and not of the Titans which are the basis of Atlantis. Remember Atlas was a Titan, not an Olympian, so the symbology doesn't work. I would ask where Plato states that the name given to the continent of America is Calalus, but you would probably point to that "unpublished portion" again. There is some reason to believe the ancient Greek name for the American continent was Ogygia, which is not etemiologically similar to Calalus. That ancient visitors from the Old World not only knew of America but were visiting, and in surprising places at that, we might note that the Punic name of Alaska is Al Asqa, pronounced exactly the same as we pronounce Alaska, which supposedly means "the great land" in native tongue and coincidentally, is the exact same meaning for the Punic name. Geographic place names often live far longer than the people whom gave a place the name, and there is no Amerindian place name close to Calalus for that area which I have been able to find.

　
Starman 1 also wrote

And what did these explorers leave us after taking the precious metals and other things? The library of Oz. Directions? Not sure we can say anything more than was posted several years ago:

　
The best answer as to what ancient explorers left us, after obtaining the precious metals, furs etc they came for, is graffiti; much the same as early Spanish explorers and American emigrants crossing to Oregon carved their names on Independence Rock in Wyoming. A few coins have been found, a metal urn, and a few actual shipwrecks as well. None of these date to 700-800 AD however, all are much older. I have never seen anything to substantiate the story of a "library of Oz"; in fact the one state/power that did attempt a colony in America from the Old World, was destroyed including its libraries, circa 149 BC. It is possible that some of those people escaped to America, in fact there is even an incident which may record the actual departure of these refugee type colonists, and the time period will not match Calalus.

　
If you think about it, the story of these "holy relics' being DUMPED should be a major red flag. If they were truly holy, why would they have been handled with so little respect?

Starman 1 also wrote

Roy, one day I hope you hike that trail and who knows maybe the next time you are in Fish Creek Canyon you will see what has always been there, the gate to Calalus and beyond.

I have no plans to return to Fish creek and my sole reason for that most unpleasant hike on my last visit had nothing to do with Calalus, Oz nor gold or treasures.
You have pointed out that it takes a "leap of faith" to believe in Calalus and/or Oz, that we must virtually "suspend" our logic and simply accept it, which is not a way to convince skeptics. If you must be a believer to see it, then there is a strong chance it does not exist.

If you really wonder why I have continued to discuss this topic with you and the other supporters of Calalus/Oz, it is because I have long been working on a book about ancient visitors from the Old World coming to America. As things stand, Calalus does not look to be genuine to me, and while this may seem harmless such fantasies can actually be harmful. We need only look to the rise of the Nazis and their invented mythology of the Aryans to see how a fantasy version of history can become very destructive indeed. I am NOT proposing that you or any of the other believers in Calalus are anything like the Nazis, just using that extreme example to show how such a fiction can be very destructive; ala a belief in some "special" or "superior" race of people, whom have been persecuted and the next step is the drive to "restore" this mythical empire.

Even in my own work, were I to include Calalus and in effect put my "stamp of approval" on it, the effect would be to put my credibility and judgement into question for having thus approved of such a questionable set of artifacts. I do not approve of them as genuine, and including them as evidence of ancient Old World voyages to America would actually hurt the argument by casting a shadow on the whole. The Calalus artifacts are not the only examples of such questionable evidence, we can point to the "ancient Hebrew" coins found in Kentucky or the Cardiff Giant of NY, fakes and phony "evidence" have been turning up right along. Don't believe everything that comes along, the real evidence is compelling enough by itself.

Real history is every bit as interesting, and full of surprises as Calalus, more so in fact, we need not look to fantasy or invented stories, and much of history remains to be told. I am sorry but Calalus is not a part of it in my opinion, which as our mutual amigo Cactusjumper says, with five bucks might buy you a cup of coffee.
Good luck and good hunting to you Starman, and everyone reading our discussion, I think I am done with this thread as I have no intention of making any leap of faith to accept Calalus. I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

I'm afraid Ben is in well over his head debating the "history" of Calalus with you.

Take care,

Joe

 

[wrmickel1]

Starman1 and Roy

Perhapes your both right, Maybe there real and dated right and ended up resting in another place, Roy you mentioned early Spanish explorers. Its a fact that many Spanish were part of Roman Legions, swords, armor, ect. handed down as prized possessions from one generation to the other, Then they grab there swords, armor, ect. Head to the new world with promise of riches beyond there wildest dreams, Lets say the real first gold rush of the America's. And I'm real sure they brought clergy with them so they would be read their last rights or no heaven for them. So could there be older stuff in America older then its discovery, YEAH ! AS such older Chinese coins in South Dakota that predate Custers visit and its discovery!

Movement of material not cultures even hundreds of years from the time they were made, Still happends today Pre Columbian Stuff all over And other artifacts.

Wrmickel1

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,

I'm afraid Ben is well over his head debating the "history" of Calalus with you.

　
Thanks for the kind words, I have no doubt that Ben is a very intelligent man <like you> and well versed in this topic. What caught my attention however was this reference to the unpublished portion of Critias, which if it exists is almost certainly a forgery. For our readers, this passage is what I was referring to:

Plato, ambitious to elaborate and adorn the subject of the lost Atlantis, as if it were the soil of a fair estate unoccupied, but appropriately his by virtue of some kinship with Solon,began the work by laying out great porches, enclosures, and courtyards, such as no story, tale, or poesy ever had before. But he was late in beginning, and ended his life before his work. Therefore the greater our delight in what he actually wrote, the greater is our distress in view of what he left undone. For as the Olympieium in the city of Athens, so the tale of the lost Atlantis in the wisdom of Plato is the only one among many beautiful works to remain unfinished.

Plutarch, Life of Solon, pp 32 circa 1st century AD

I hope all is well with you and Carolyn, and Smoky is keeping out of the hot weather!

Wrmickel1 wrote

Starman1 and Roy

Perhapes your both right, Maybe there real and dated right and ended up resting in another place, Roy you mentioned early Spanish explorers. Its a fact that many Spanish were part of Roman Legions, swords, armor, ect. handed down as prized possessions from one generation to the other, Then they grab there swords, armor, ect. Head to the new world with promise of riches beyond there wildest dreams, Lets say the real first gold rush of the America's. And I'm real sure they brought clergy with them so they would be read their last rights or no heaven for them. So could there be older stuff in America older then its discovery, YEAH ! AS such older Chinese coins in South Dakota that predate Custers visit and its discovery!

Movement of material not cultures even hundreds of years from the time they were made, Still happends today Pre Columbian Stuff all over And other artifacts.

　
Perhaps this is the case. However the Roman attempts to reach America, as recorded by Strabo and Josephus, returned without having fully crossed the Atlantic, complaining of the great expanse of the sea. A case could be made that the Romans knew of the Caribbean islands, which they called the Hesperides, but the only attempted voyage there did not start (see the Life of Sertorius, also by Plutarch). Several ships apparently did cross, accidentally, however considering that these ships we know of are sunk, <examples, Beverly Mass, or the Bay of Jars, Brazil> it is debatable whether any survivors made it ashore. Then to get to the southwest, when there were no roads or bridges, not to mention natives whom may or may not be hostile, it becomes pretty long odds for shipwreck survivors to have mounted a serious expedition into Arizona. Not to say that it is impossible, one need only look at the example of de Vaca for proof that it was possible (remember he was shipwrecked in Texas and walked overland to Mexico along with Maldonado, Carranza and Estevanico) however even so, de Vaca was able to travel to friendly Spaniards, a shipwrecked Roman would have NO place he could walk to and find friends to help him.

The Chinese have used the same style of bronze coins for many centuries, so they remain in circulation; coins dating to the BC era have been found in Chinese camps in the gold rush sites all over the western US, obviously brought there by the Chinese laborers who came to work in America, but long after Columbus. I don't think we can make any conclusions about Chinese prospectors in the Black Hills before Custer based on finding Chinese coins there.

A major problem with the Calalus story is the time period in which it supposedly occurred. These Roman/Samaritan/Hebrew colonists would have been living in the eastern Mediterranean at a time when the ships available were not large enough nor strong enough for an ocean crossing. Byzantine shipwrecks have been recently found on the bottom of the Black Sea, in surprisingly good condition; they are notably smaller than ships of earlier centuries and although well built, were not as well built as ships dating to say 250 BC. Certainly the Romans knew of the existence of the great continent of North and South America, but only in a rather vague way, which is why the expedition described by Josephus was sent and this failed. Now consider that six hundred years passed between the time of the recorded Roman expedition, and the Calalus story. If you are interested, a fairly good online source is at:

?? ?? ??

　
It is a very interesting topic (to me) and there are very real evidences of Old World visitors to the Americas even two thousand years before Columbus, but there are also quite a few fakes like the examples mentioned earlier, or the Vorhee plates, heck some would even include the basis of the Mormon faith <No offense intended to anyone of the Mormon faith>. I do not know why people will do this, make up fake artifacts, inscriptions etc. In the case of the Calalus/Oz story, it appears that there is a hidden agenda at work here, the real purpose of trying to get these highly questionable objects accepted as real is not readily apparent.

　
Good luck and good hunting Wrmickel1, thank you for your thoughtful and interesting reply. Perhaps there really is something to the Calalus artifacts and library of Oz, but I doubt that it is over 100 years old. Just an opinion of course, for all that is worth.
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

PS as if that last post were not long winded enough, can't seem to let the subject drop. Sorry about that.

I do not know why the link came out like that either, but when I tried to fix it, it came out looking odd but it works if you click on it. It is a good article on Byzantine seafaring.

If someone wants to see solid proof of pre-Columbian visitors coming to the Americas, just look at the Los Lunas Decalogue stone, the Spirit Pond stone, the Kensington Runestone or the Heavener stone, the intriguing site at Mystery Hill New Hampshire, the ancient copper mines of the upper Great Lakes, for starters. Finding some lead crosses, spear heads and swords near Tucson with bad Latin on them is nothing - try to explain how a Numidian coin dating to the first century BC found its way to be panned out of the bottom of the Snake river, Idaho, or how did chief Joseph of the Nez Perce happen to have a Babylonian cuneiform clay tablet in his possession, which he said had been a family heirloom as long as anyone remembered. There is plenty of real evidence, we don't need the fakes.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Springfield]

... If someone wants to see solid proof of pre-Columbian visitors coming to the Americas, just look at the Los Lunas Decalogue stone, the Spirit Pond stone, the Kensington Runestone or the Heavener stone, the intriguing site at Mystery Hill New Hampshire, the ancient copper mines of the upper Great Lakes, for starters. Finding some lead crosses, spear heads and swords near Tucson with bad Latin on them is nothing - try to explain how a Numidian coin dating to the first century BC found its way to be panned out of the bottom of the Snake river, Idaho, or how did chief Joseph of the Nez Perce happen to have a Babylonian cuneiform clay tablet in his possession, which he said had been a family heirloom as long as anyone remembered. There is plenty of real evidence, we don't need the fakes.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

I agree for the most part, although the ruins on the mesa top above the Decalogue Stone are more interesting to me than the stone itself.

Re the Kensington Rune Stone, I've been an ardent believer for many years and am fortunate to have seen the inscriptions several times where the stone is being displayed in Alexandria, MN. Even so, only very recently - this year - I've seen some extremely compelling new information regarding the stone's discovery site that elevates the mystery to new heights. The unwritten history of our continent, ancient and not so ancient, is perplexing.

 

[wrmickel1]

Cactusjumper wrote


　
Thanks for the kind words, I have no doubt that Ben is a very intelligent man <like you> and well versed in this topic. What caught my attention however was this reference to the unpublished portion of Critias, which if it exists is almost certainly a forgery. For our readers, this passage is what I was referring to:


Plutarch, Life of Solon, pp 32 circa 1st century AD

I hope all is well with you and Carolyn, and Smoky is keeping out of the hot weather!

Wrmickel1 wrote


　
Perhaps this is the case. However the Roman attempts to reach America, as recorded by Strabo and Josephus, returned without having fully crossed the Atlantic, complaining of the great expanse of the sea. A case could be made that the Romans knew of the Caribbean islands, which they called the Hesperides, but the only attempted voyage there did not start (see the Life of Sertorius, also by Plutarch). Several ships apparently did cross, accidentally, however considering that these ships we know of are sunk, <examples, Beverly Mass, or the Bay of Jars, Brazil> it is debatable whether any survivors made it ashore. Then to get to the southwest, when there were no roads or bridges, not to mention natives whom may or may not be hostile, it becomes pretty long odds for shipwreck survivors to have mounted a serious expedition into Arizona. Not to say that it is impossible, one need only look at the example of de Vaca for proof that it was possible (remember he was shipwrecked in Texas and walked overland to Mexico along with Maldonado, Carranza and Estevanico) however even so, de Vaca was able to travel to friendly Spaniards, a shipwrecked Roman would have NO place he could walk to and find friends to help him.

The Chinese have used the same style of bronze coins for many centuries, so they remain in circulation; coins dating to the BC era have been found in Chinese camps in the gold rush sites all over the western US, obviously brought there by the Chinese laborers who came to work in America, but long after Columbus. I don't think we can make any conclusions about Chinese prospectors in the Black Hills before Custer based on finding Chinese coins there.

A major problem with the Calalus story is the time period in which it supposedly occurred. These Roman/Samaritan/Hebrew colonists would have been living in the eastern Mediterranean at a time when the ships available were not large enough nor strong enough for an ocean crossing. Byzantine shipwrecks have been recently found on the bottom of the Black Sea, in surprisingly good condition; they are notably smaller than ships of earlier centuries and although well built, were not as well built as ships dating to say 250 BC. Certainly the Romans knew of the existence of the great continent of North and South America, but only in a rather vague way, which is why the expedition described by Josephus was sent and this failed. Now consider that six hundred years passed between the time of the recorded Roman expedition, and the Calalus story. If you are interested, a fairly good online source is at:

?? ?? ??

　
It is a very interesting topic (to me) and there are very real evidences of Old World visitors to the Americas even two thousand years before Columbus, but there are also quite a few fakes like the examples mentioned earlier, or the Vorhee plates, heck some would even include the basis of the Mormon faith <No offense intended to anyone of the Mormon faith>. I do not know why people will do this, make up fake artifacts, inscriptions etc. In the case of the Calalus/Oz story, it appears that there is a hidden agenda at work here, the real purpose of trying to get these highly questionable objects accepted as real is not readily apparent.

　
Good luck and good hunting Wrmickel1, thank you for your thoughtful and interesting reply. Perhaps there really is something to the Calalus artifacts and library of Oz, but I doubt that it is over 100 years old. Just an opinion of course, for all that is worth.
Oroblanco

ROY,
That's the hole idea, Newer cultures leave behind older artifacts then the time they live in.

Wrmickel1

 

[Oroblanco]

ROY,
That's the hole idea, Newer cultures leave behind older artifacts then the time they live in.

Wrmickel1

Wrmickel1; Yeah I got that - but how much "older" do you suppose these Calalus artifacts are? Before you answer, consider that the lead alloy they are made of, was tested and found to match that of modern car battery plates.

Springfield; I half expected you were going to bring up the supposed finding of the faker's signature on the Kensington stone, which was "Found" by the same method in which you can find the signature of Shakespeare on this page. What new evidence/findings are you referring to? Thank you in advance. <For our readers, no I do not accept that the Kensington stone is a fake, nor that it has any signature on it.>

For our readers, just to clear up a few points.

Firstly, I referenced Strabo earlier, here is the relevant passage, a most interesting paragraph which shows the state of geographic knowledge in the Roman empire, in the first century AD.

The Romans by the first century AD, had come to the conclusion that there was no continent (America) as referred to by Greek and Punic stories; Strabo presented the argument:

We may learn both from the evidence of our senses and from experience that the inhabited world is an island; for wherever it has been possible for man to reach the limits of the earth, sea has been found, and this sea we call "Oceanus." And wherever we have not been able to learn by the evidence of our sense, there reason points the way. For example, as to the eastern (Indian) side of the inhabited earth, and the western (Iberian and Maurusian) side, one may sail wholly around them and continue the voyage for a considerable distance along the northern and southern regions; and as for the rest of the distance around the inhabited earth which has not been visited by us up to the present time (because of the fact that the navigators who sailed in opposite directions towards each other never met), it is not of very great extent, if we reckon from the parallel distances that have been traversed by us. It is unlikely that the Atlantic Ocean is divided into two seas, thus being separated by isthmuses so narrow and that prevent the circumnavigation; it is more likely that it is one confluent and continuous sea. For those who undertook circumnavigation, and turned back without having achieved their purpose, say that they were made to turn back, not because of any continent that stood in their way and hindered their further advance, inasmuch as the sea still continued open as before, but because of their destitution and loneliness.

Strabo, Geography I, 8, first century AD

　
This point also makes the idea of Calalus all the more unlikely, for the Byzantines were the eastern Roman empire, so it is logical that they would believe there were no continents blocking a path direct from Europe to Asia across the Atlantic, which also if you think about it, helps explain Columbus's belief that he could sail from Europe direct to Asia. Remember that the capital of the Byzantine empire, Constantinople, fell to the Turks in Columbus's lifetime <he was an infant> and it is quite possible that he had obtained information from their famous libraries.

　
This also explains why we should not expect any deliberate Roman expeditions to America, at least not after the time of Strabo whose work on geography was "the" source. They had concluded that the Greek and Punic stories of a vast continent rimming the western Atlantic were not true. People living in the Byzantine Empire circa 774 AD, did not believe there was any American continent to sail to. A side thing about this passage of Strabo is that it records an early attempt to circumnavigate the Earth by ships sailing in both directions from the Roman empire, which has been ignored by historians.


Then consider that this exodus of a fleet of ships, filled with men, women and children (but apparently no livestock) had to depart from the Byzantine Empire (in purple on this map) and pass the full length of the Mediterranean sea, right through masses of Arab fleets hostile to them, and make it through the straits of Gibraltar, which were also controlled and patrolled by hostile Arab ships.

<map>


The emperor of the Byzantine Empire was then Constantine V, whom died in the year 775, which is the year the Calalus colonists supposedly arrived in America.

I suspect that the creator of the Calalus artifacts, simply did not know the ancient history of the time period he or she (or they) were trying to project this story into. IF they did know it, they likely would have tried setting the story in a different time period entirely for the odds of a Byzantine expedition, through the whole of Arab-controlled Mediterranean, not to mention the ships needed for such an expedition would weaken the Byzantine fleet and certainly at least attract the attention of the government, and hard to believe they would approve of it.

Good luck and good hunting amigos I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[sgtfda]

Roy you amaze me!

 

[Not Peralta]

Oroblanco, documented evidence, concrete proof. I think you have STARMAN all wrong. I for one do not believe STARMAN is trying to convert anyone, all STARMAN is doing
is sharing something that at times weighs heavy on his heart . do you have any idea what it's like to live a life of knowing something special and wanting to share it,and it's
secrets,but,cant because of your convictions and your beliefs . he shares with people what he can,he doesn't have to, but he does because he cares,and he can only share up
to a point. what he does share are great clues to certain things that you wouldn't have had other wise. I for one respect him for that and just want to say thank you STARMAN. np

 

[starman 1]

Gentlemen

Hello Roy,

Have you ever read Bent's work, "The Tucson Artifacts"? In reading your posts I sense you have not. I would recommend it if you are really interested in coming to grips with the mystery of all of this. I do have a few points to share with you. i will simply quote from your posts and present a response. Roy tells us:

"If you think about it, the story of these "holy relics' being DUMPED should be a major red flag. If they were truly holy, why would they have been handled with so little respect"?

In the preceding post I stated:

"That night under an incredible sky my father shared with his friend the history of our people, the location of sites we would be visiting over the next few days and the history of the last days of Calalus that had been handed down from generation to generation. I will never forget his discussion of the creation of the Tucson Artifacts. They were made in the last days of the people in a small canyon, (Eldorado Canyon, Nevada) on the Colorado River. The artifacts were forged as a map home that one day might lead the descendents of Calalus back to their most holy site in the Superstitions. The relics were later dumped in a marshy area of Arizona to make room for living survivors of the holocast that befell the people. That is another history for another day"

Roy, what you are referencing is one of the most important moments in the history of our people. Every year I teach a class to our young people in South Africa when they reach a certain age. The lesson they take from this incident speaks to the humanity in each of us. That at such a time of great suffering and trials the decision was made to dump the holy for something that is far more precious human life.

Later you state

" If you really wonder why I have continued to discuss this topic with you and the other supporters of Calalus/Oz, it is because I have long been working on a book about ancient visitors from the Old World coming to America. As things stand, Calalus does not look to be genuine to me, and while this may seem harmless such fantasies can actually be harmful. We need only look to the rise of the Nazis and their invented mythology of the Aryans to see how a fantasy version of history can become very destructive indeed. I am NOT proposing that you or any of the other believers in Calalus are anything like the Nazis, just using that extreme example to show how such a fiction can be very destructive; ala a belief in some "special" or "superior" race of people, whom have been persecuted and the next step is the drive to "restore" this mythical empire".

I suspected you were looking for the truth not writing a book. To suggest that the survivors of the holocast that befell the people could even be discussed with the same breath as the Nazi`s is simply breathtaking. That so many of our people died to preserve the holy and so many people sacrificed so much to keep it safe speaks to the integrity and depth of our belief in the decency in each human being. At the end of my class each year I tell our young people the story of where the phrase, "may the stars keep you safe" comes from. The man who carved that simple statement on a cave wall as he died in the Canyon of the Souls, was a remarkable man. His decision to stay and fight was a commitment to decency and a respect for the holy. Years later when his remains were buried in a cemetary in South Africa his descendants would look at your comments for what they are shameful.

Roy states:

"Considering that Plutarch, writing in the first century AD and long before our time, stated that Plato never finished his work on Atlantis, this certainly suggests that any "unpublished portion" was already lost by 100 AD and we might add, if Plutarch is granted any credence, then there is no unpublished portion for it was never completed. However I had hoped that perhaps you had something to support the contention, as it would be a major coup to find any unpublished portion of Plato's works. Surprising new finds are made all the time".

One should give Plutarch great credit but did Plato finish his work? Yes he did. The proof is out there. You will not find it on the internet or on e-bay.

Roy states:

"I fail to see any mention of the Trident in Timaeus; while I am in complete agreement that the reference to the "true continent" which bounds the whole of the western ocean is the Americas, what exactly ties this to Calalus? Atlantis and Calalus are separated by some 10,200 years roughly"

Perhaps you should look again at my post. Calalus was the name given to the new world by the explorers from Atlantis. The more modern adventurers simply piggybacked on the name since they were aware of it from the descriptions given in the Critias. I would not expect tridents to be mentioned in the Timaeus since the subject matter of the Timaeus would not suggest it being mentioned.

Roy states:

The best answer as to what ancient explorers left us, after obtaining the precious metals, furs etc they came for, is graffiti; much the same as early Spanish explorers and American emigrants crossing to Oregon carved their names on Independence Rock in Wyoming.

So you believe all that was left was graffiti. Interesting.


Roy states:

"Even in my own work, were I to include Calalus and in effect put my "stamp of approval" on it, the effect would be to put my credibility and judgement into question for having thus approved of such a questionable set of artifacts".

Whether or not you put your stamp of approval on them changes well nothing. If you find them questionable that is your right. One thing that has struck me in all of this is a lack of engagement on the specifics regarding the artifacts. For example:


"An artifact found under a 50-year old Mesquite tree provides a maximum date of ca. 1874. Also, the artifacts were scattered over a 2500-foot area on an eroding terrace, and then covered up all together, buried between three to six feet below the modern surface. There was absolutely no evidence of pits dug to plant the pieces under the surface; this is verified in the photographs and by multiple professional accounts during the discoveries, including comments by Dr. Neil Judd who personally excavated two of the pieces; Judd was a nephew of UAz’s Dr. Byron Cummings, and a Smithsonian archaeologist working at Chaco Canyon. To do all that earthmoving, an army begins to make sense".


Roy,

I would like to repost what I said originally:

While it is always pleasing to pursue discussions that reinforce what you already believe perhaps the truth can be better served by embarking on a journey who`s destination is not yet known.

A close reading of the Bent work will diffuse many of the arguments that have been presented regarding the so called planting of the artifacts by their discoverers. Pay particular attention to the discovery of several of the artifacts and the role played by folks who were supposedly planting the artifacts. As far as confessions go a close reading of the Burgess article will probably result in more questions than answers.

Keep in mind that respected folks in the scientific community believe these are the real deal and acquaint yourself with their efforts. One should not dismiss the efforts of Covey nor the beliefs of Hardaker that both believe the artifacts were not planted. In all fairness Hardaker believes the artifacts were not planted but were not a relic of a Roman/Jewish Community referred to as Calalus.

Perhaps as a starting point consider where there is agreement. Calalus no longer exists this we can all agree. As to whether it ever did should be for you an open question. True scholarship will be uncomfortable but it will open a gate that might amaze you.

As far as the relationship between Calalus and the Superstitons a good starting place might be to research the history of the naming of Battle Axe road and the reading of the small work Arizona in the fifties. Obviously having access to the Bent/ Mcgee correspondence may provide some information. I would pay particular attention to the Mcgee comments in one of her articles regarding the location of certain sites in the Superstitions that speak of an ancient presence. Also there are signs high up in Boulder Canyon that speak not only to the Tucson Artifacts but to the presence of a more ancient people.

Having said this if you are only interested in proving a hoax I can only smile and wish you well. If you are interested in finding the truth you may or not succeed but you will be better for the journey. For us Calalus, the Library of Oz, and the Canyon of Souls are very, very real. If what you discover takes you down a different trail that is fine. Go there in good spirit.

True history is an adventure that starts with what is out there not what is in here. I have suggested to you where you might find the truth. At the end of the day there is more truth in Fish Creek Canyon than every piece of evidence you have presented.

Good luck in your researches and I look forward to your book.

Starman


Hello N.P.

Thank you for the kind words. You see these exchanges are a reminder of how difficult the truth is for folks to see. Neverless the effort is worth it and we should all go down our trails in life with good spirit and hope. Hope is all our people had on Silverbell Road and so much has been accomplished.

May the Stars keep you safe.

Starman