Hola amigos;
This reply is extremely long, as there are so many points to address. I must ask your indulgence once again, thank you in advance and to anyone wishing to simply skip the whole thing, no offense taken.
Starman1 wrote
Hello Roy,
Have you ever read Bent's work, "The Tucson Artifacts"?
No.
Starman1 also wrote
Roy, what you are referencing is one of the most important moments in the history of our people. Every year I teach a class to our young people in South Africa when they reach a certain age. The lesson they take from this incident speaks to the humanity in each of us. That at such a time of great suffering and trials the decision was made to dump the holy for something that is far more precious human life.
I hope that you are not teaching the Calalus story to students as an historic event. One might as well add Paul Bunyan as part of the curriculum if Calalus is included. As to dumping the "holy" to save human lives, consider how the ancient Hebrews were willing to give up their lives to protect the Ark of the Covenant. A part of the Christian/Judeo belief system is that we are not to fear those whom can kill the body, rather we should fear only that which can kill the soul. Hence the massacre of so many thousands of Christians in the arena for the amusement of Roman emperors like Nero. This suggests that the Calalus artifacts were far from being considered "holy" relics.
Starman1 also wrote
I suspected you were looking for the truth not writing a book. To suggest that the survivors of the holocast that befell the people could even be discussed with the same breath as the Nazi`s is simply breathtaking. That so many of our people died to preserve the holy and so many people sacrificed so much to keep it safe speaks to the integrity and depth of our belief in the decency in each human being. At the end of my class each year I tell our young people the story of where the phrase, "may the stars keep you safe" comes from. The man who carved that simple statement on a cave wall as he died in the Canyon of the Souls, was a remarkable man. His decision to stay and fight was a commitment to decency and a respect for the holy. Years later when his remains were buried in a cemetary in South Africa his descendants would look at your comments for what they are shameful.
Can you not see the direct parallels of your story and beliefs, to the mythical Aryan "history" as constructed by the Nazis? Complete with the "special" people and descendants. This kind of thing is a dangerous path to start down, and can end badly.
Shameful indeed!
I would ask what is so dishonorable about writing a book, which in itself can be a quest for truth, but we have much more to cover.
Starman1 also wrote
One should give Plutarch great credit but did Plato finish his work? Yes he did. The proof is out there. You will not find it on the internet or on e-bay.
You have stated that you have a copy of this "unpublished" portion of Critias; why not post it publicly?
Do you fear that it will quickly be proven a forgery?
While I do use the internet for research, (it can be a very useful tool) it is hardly my only option. It is much easier to cut and paste than to hand-copy whole sections of books, which BTW I also own, and if I had not read the books, how would I know where to look for the relevant passages? Your attempt to denigrate my research does not add weight to your argument for a real Calalus.
Starman1 also wrote
Perhaps you should look again at my post. Calalus was the name given to the new world by the explorers from Atlantis. The more modern adventurers simply piggybacked on the name since they were aware of it from the descriptions given in the Critias. I would not expect tridents to be mentioned in the Timaeus since the subject matter of the Timaeus would not suggest it being mentioned.
You are the one whom tagged the trident as a symbol of Atlantis, and the main source on Atlantis is Plato's two dialogues Timaeus and Critias. The other sources, Diodorus, Theopompus and others, have even less information and having read all of them I do not recall ever seeing the trident mentioned in connection with Atlantis in any of them. So
where do you say the name CALALUS originates? You also stated that the name Calalus came from this "unpublished portion" from Plato, so now
I ask you to prove that assertion by posting the relevant passages, thank you in advance in both instances.
Starman1 also wrote
So you believe all that was left was graffiti. Interesting.
Is that what I wrote? Perhaps
you need to go back and re-read what I posted?
Starman1 wrote
Whether or not you put your stamp of approval on them changes well nothing. If you find them questionable that is your right. One thing that has struck me in all of this is a lack of engagement on the specifics regarding the artifacts. For example:
I had set aside the questionable Latin and the caliche for the moment, to address the whole story. The lack of engagement on specifics seems to emanate from your end of this discussion, like the supposed "unpublished portion" of Critias as an example, or where the trident is shown to be a symbol of Atlantis? Were we to delve into the issues of the caliche in which the artifacts were found, we would then have to explain how the artifacts were found in layers of caliche that were not just 900 years old but
thousands of years TOO old? I do not care whether MY opinion changes anything for you, but I do value my own credibility.
Starman1 also wrote
Keep in mind that respected folks in the scientific community believe these are the real deal and acquaint yourself with their efforts. One should not dismiss the efforts of Covey nor the beliefs of Hardaker that both believe the artifacts were not planted. In all fairness Hardaker believes the artifacts were not planted but were not a relic of a Roman/Jewish Community referred to as Calalus.
I have respect for professor Covey, but
can not agree with him. On the other hand,
you seem to have NO respect for any of the scholars whom have concluded the Calalus artifacts are modern fakes. Does it not raise any questions for you that Dr Barry Fell, a widely known diffusionist, disagreed with Covey and concluded the Calalus artifacts were modern? Perhaps you should acquaint yourself with Fell's efforts?
Starman1 also wrote
Perhaps as a starting point consider where there is agreement. Calalus no longer exists this we can all agree. As to whether it ever did should be for you an open question. True scholarship will be uncomfortable but it will open a gate that might amaze you.
Well then we are at loggerheads, for the very statement "Calalus
NO LONGER EXISTS" is stating
that it did once. I am very far from convinced that it ever existed, certainly, in America, at all. I have tried to allow you the greatest possible latitude in presenting your argument(s), and while I am a firm believer that keeping an open mind is an absolute must for finding the truth, too many of the issues around Calalus are not addressed, much less explained like why it is an 'island' of evidence rather than a "shotgun pattern' as is the case with most of the other pre-Columbian visits to America. Ancient Amerindian ruins in the Superstitions are evidence of native peoples, not Romans.
Starman1 also wrote
Having said this if you are only interested in proving a hoax I can only smile and wish you well. If you are interested in finding the truth you may or not succeed but you will be better for the journey. For us Calalus, the Library of Oz, and the Canyon of Souls are very, very real. If what you discover takes you down a different trail that is fine. Go there in good spirit.
True history is an adventure that starts with what is out there not what is in here. I have suggested to you where you might find the truth. At the end of the day there is more truth in Fish Creek Canyon than every piece of evidence you have presented.
I have explored Fish Creek canyon, and have seen
nothing there that points to any Roman presence, nor for that matter much of an Amerindian presence for that matter. I am very far from being "
only interesting in proving an hoax"; I wish to honor, and bring to light, the real accomplishments of ancient explorers who came to America.
Calalus does not meet the bar, I am afraid. I do leave the door open however, but it is going to take more than cryptic references to sources not available to the public and trying to see ancient Amerindian ruins as Romans. How did the Calalus colonists escape from Europe/Mediterranean, which was largely in a Dark Age at the time, passing through the Arab empire? Did they simply decide that Plato's story of a continent was true, and Strabo's Geography,
the standard for geography for centuries, had it all wrong?
The Romans and Byzantines were not exactly great mariners in their day. How many expeditions of exploration and colonization were sent out by Rome, or the Byzantine empire, do you know? In those cases where they did send out ships, were they not in every case, simply following in the tracks of earlier Greek or Phoenician seafarers, as with the example of Polybius or even Caesar's expedition into Britain, following where Pytheas had gone centuries before? Even Pliny the Elder complained that the art of seafaring had so declined in his own day, that previous centuries mariners had surpassed his own time. Perhaps if you were to read Ora Maritima by Rufus Festus Avienus, you might question whether any Roman ships would even have been able to cross the Atlantic in the eighth century AD.
You seem to dismiss what I posted out of hand, in the very manner you have accused me of doing by the way. It does not impress me that you toss out Strabo as if I had just made it up.
As this discussion continues to follow the same route as it did for years on another forum, I don't see anything to pursue. Let me ask you a question Starman, do you agree that there are and have been FAKES purporting to be evidence of ancient visitors to America? Have you kept your mind open to the possibility that the Calalus artifacts are modern fakes? I do not get that impression from any of your posts.
I hope you can prove that there was a real Roman Calalus, I really do. I am convinced that people were coming to America long before Columbus, but
we must also beware of the phonies and hoaxes, which only serve to discredit the true voyages of Phoenicians, Greeks, Chinese and even Arabs. I do not expect that all of academia must proclaim the Calalus artifacts as genuine to convince me, but some of these questions must be answered and not with suggestions to go a-hiking, regardless of how beautiful the Superstitions truly are.
My apologies to everyone for this extremely long post, I will try to keep things shorter in future. Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
Hard to say if there real or not without a true test of the metal, but that would destroy the test piece.
