JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[sailaway]

Tectonic map of Rogers Canyon
All I did was outline plates

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Gracias Revel, that was fascinating reading on Champlain and his small astrolabe.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[somehiker]

Another navigational instrument some of you might find interesting.

Radio Latino - Inventions

I found this of particular interest...."When sheathed in its case it looks like a dagger".....File:7503 3092 3744-009.jpg - Inventions

And from the "Champlain" article, another example of the Heart in Jesuit symbolism/iconography from the earliest days of their missions.



The Astrolabe, East and West: A Jesuit astrolabe?

Regards:SH.

 

[releventchair]

That radio Latino is news to me thanks. What a piece.I struggle to navigate enough that it would take some learning on the old devices but the craftsmanship alone on some of that old stuff really is impressive and despite today's tools I would be hard pressed to duplicate most of it. Some serious craftsmanship. One piece would make for a happy day find and get treasury feeling followed by wondering who,s hands crafted it and who used it for what eventually.

 

[deducer]

Perhaps astrolabs were employed?

Fr. Kino had an astrolab, and a telescope.

An interesting article here: Pioneering Padre on Horseback: Eusebio Francis Kino (1645-1711), Part II and I have quoted the relevant section below, and underlined some key passages:

Made Several Compass Sundials

There is no description extant of Kino's compass but it is a matter of record that while in Cadiz he purchased a compass, probably a compass sundial, and that during the same period of waiting he made several compass sundials. In an entry in his diary, however, he referred to it as a mariner's compass. In addition to his map-making tools, which consisted of a compass, a telescope, and a mariner's astrolabe, Kino also was equipped with a copy of Adam Aigenler's Tabula Geographic-Horologa Universalis, to which were appended the tables of latitude and longitude from Book 9 of Tabula Geographiae et Hydrographia Reformata by Giovanni Battista Riccioli, published in Bologna in 1661. This work is specifically mentioned in Kino's diary.

Although magnetic variation was known before his time, there is no evidence that Kino made compensation for it, yet his observations and maps do not contain the errors that would occur if compensation had not been made for such variation. The assumption is that he probably made approximate corrections since he was dealing with a relatively small area, by comparing magnetic north (determined by means of his magnetic compass), with true north (determined by taking a sighting on Polaris). The difference observed was then applied to all magnetic bearings taken thereafter, providing a relatively valid true north anywhere in the area. Kino provided no description of his telescope except that it was portable, and that he had used it at sea. It was probably a refracting telescope made in the second half of the seventeenth century, and characteristically it was probably equipped with an objective not more than 2 inches or so, magnification not greatly in excess of 10, and a resolution of probably 3 seconds of arc. He may have mounted it on a tripod for field work.

All of the latitudes that Kino recorded were measured by means of the mariner's astrolabe. This instrument, standardized by 1550, consisted of a main plate with a loosely mounted suspension ring, an alidade attached to the plate at its center, and an erect sight at each end. The latitudes on Kino's maps were determined by the meridian altitude method, using Aigenler's Tables for declination corrections; his results suggest that his astrolabe may have had an index error of some 11 minutes of arc around the 60E point. Kino had few resources for determining longitude, and inasmuch as undoubtedly he had adequate mathematical and astronomical knowledge, it is likely that he may have attempted to use lunar eclipses for determining longitude.

 

[deducer]

deducer,

Can you give us a source for that information? One good source for post-Jesuit events in Mexico is: "Barbaros: Spaniards and their Savages in the Age of Enlightenment" by David Weber.

Thanks in advance,

Joe

I have added that book to my list.

The subject of Franciscans eradicating evidence of Jesuit presence as far as the architecture, came up in an email conversation that I have been having with a Fr. from the SFX church, but as I don't have his permission to publish his name or the entire conversation, I will just quote the relevant portion of what he said:

When the Society was suppressed, the Pope gave the Jesuit possessions to the Franciscans. Many architectural changes were made to the missions to erase the Jesuit baroque style to a more simple Franciscan style.

 

[sailaway]

St. Francis Assisi Prophecy: "Not a True Pastor but a Destroyer"
Shortly before he died, St. Francis of Assisi called together his followers and warned them of the coming troubles:
"In Those Days Jesus Christ Will Send Them Not A True Pastor, But A Destroyer."
The priest refused the gold Francis brought for the restoration of St. Damian's, he left the money lying on a window sill, and to avert his father's wrath, hid himself in a cave. When he emerged from this place of concealment and returned to the town, emaciated with hunger and covered with dirt, Francis was followed by a hooting crowd, pelted with mud and stones, and otherwise mocked as a madman. Francis went about teaching the people penance, brotherly love, and peace. It was during Christmas 1223 that the saint conceived the idea of celebrating the Nativity, by reproducing in a church at Greccio the “manger” of Bethlehem, and he has thus come to be regarded as having inaugurated the devotion of the Crib.

Who was St. Francis of Assisi? 12 things to know and share |Blogs | NCRegister.com

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning Deducer my friend, Coffee? You forgot to mention that the so called noon day shot via his sundials, probably was just as accurate and the moon eclypse method. Personaly I would suggest that the moon shot wold be slightly more accurate as one could note the shadow movement a bit more precisely,and it could be used in mountainous areas but in general the noon day shot would be quite satisfactory with the appropriate sized sun dial.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'd morning Deducer: A bit of data to add to your excellent reference post on declension,

Observations for Magnetic Declinationor Variation of the Compass​

n October 6 the captains made two observations of the sun for magnetic declination (also called variation of the compass). The equipment used were the circumferentor (surveying compass), sextant, artificial horizon, spirit level and chronometer. These observations usually were taken early in the morning or late in the afternoon when the sun was low and could more easily be signted in with the sight vanes of the surveying compass. The sun, however, had to be high enough so that refraction did not produce exaggrated readings for the sextant.Lewis places the artificial horizon in a convenient position. He takes the sextant from its case and takes some preliminary sightings. Meanwhile, one of the men firmly sets or drives a staff or straight, sturdy branch into the ground in a near-vertical position. Clark takes the surveying compass from its box and places the ball joint on its underside over the stick or staff and secures it with a clamping screw. Next he takes the spirit level and sets it on the upper glass plate of the surveying compass. He loosens the ball-and-socket joint just enough so that he can accurately level the compass. When Clark is sure that the surveying compass is level, he loosens the clamping screw and rotates the compass toward the sun, alighing its sight vanes as near as he can with the sun's center. The chronometer also has been taken out of its case and one of the men stands ready to record the time, sun's bearing, and its altitude. Lewis now is ready and, adjusting the sextant's index arm, matches the sun's reflection from the artificial horizon with the sun's reflection from the sextant's index mirror to the mirror on the horizon glass and into his eye. Clark, all the while, has been "tracking" the sun. When Lewis has an exact match of images, he calls "Now!" The man at the chronometer reads the time at that instant, Clark reads the magnetic bearing shown by the compass needle, and Lewis reads the sun's altitude from the sextant. When this process has been repeated one or more times, the observation is complete.For the first magnetic observation taken at Clearwater Canoe Camp, Lewis "shot" the sun's upper limb. He did this simply to reduce the effect of refraction. The second observation for Magnetic Declination was part of the Equal Altitude observation that followed the first observation for Magnetic Declination. At this time Lewis "shot" the sun's center.​

​

--Robert N. Bergantino, 11/04
​

 

[cactusjumper]

deducer,

"When the Society was suppressed, the Pope gave the Jesuit possessions to the Franciscans. Many architectural changes were made to the missions to erase the Jesuit baroque style to a more simple Franciscan style."



I was under the impression that the Jesuit possessions were owned by the State.......Not the Catholic Church. Perhaps I have that wrong.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Heritage History | Homeschool History Curriculum | Junipero Serra by A. H. Fitch

 

[deducer]

Heritage History | Homeschool History Curriculum | Junipero Serra by A. H. Fitch

Interesting.. that link contains the following passage:

When the Jesuits were expelled from California it was believed that they had discovered rich mines from which they derived immense wealth. The king, it was said, expected to amass four millions of dollars from the spoliation of the padres. Instead of four millions, however, less than one hundred was found in their coffers.

Are you then endorsing what is being said here?

 

[cactusjumper]

Interesting.. that link contains the following passage:



Are you then endorsing what is being said here?

deducer,

Not at all. On the other hand, they certainly did not find what they expected, nor what they were looking for.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

They were expecting to find the riches everybody knew were there. They did not. However, they did take control of massive herds of sheep, cattle, and horses. A LOT of property (including the richest sugar plantations in the New World) that had been both bought and tithed to the Jesuits. In short, the Spanish took control of everything the Jesuits could not (or did not) hide, then sold it all.

THAT is what I keep coming back to! ONCE AGAIN, forget about mines and stacks of dore bars of both gold and silver from those mines. Just forget ANY illicit activities at all. Just stay with me on what EVERY one of here agrees with! The Jesuits had amassed a fortune LEGALLY. Their phenomenal business acumen (enormous herds of horses,sheep, and cattle/largest sugar plantation in the New World, etc), tithes to the Order, etc, etc, etc. The entire order in Nueva Viscaya was being closely watched (by order of Charles III) for a year prior to their suppression. Moving such a vast horde of treasure (money and church appointments) would not have been easy, but what happened to it? (ONCE AGAIN)We know what was there based on the Jesuit Fathers' Journals. We also know what was there when Fra Serra inventoried the old Jesuit Missions in 1768.

Also, based on the letters and rules in Father Polzer's Book "Rules and Precepts of the Jesuit Missions of Northwestern New Spain", we know that the Jesuits were instructed to destroy any correspondences that could bring ANY ill will against the Order (on more than one occasion). I do not believe that anybody has ever found anything in any Jesuit Record Books that overtly referred to a large sum of hidden material wealth. I believe that any papers referring to anything of the sort would have been burned long before their arrests (except maybe some held on to by Father Joseph Och SJ). I think the only place any letters of the sort may still exist is in Rome. When a letter got to the Jesuit Curia, there was no longer any need to worry about the "wrong" people seeing it.

Best - Mike

 

[deducer]

deducer,

Not at all. On the other hand, they certainly did not find what they expected, nor what they were looking for.

Take care,

Joe

I furthermore find this passage very interesting:

To realize more fully the extent of the Jesuit power in California, it is only necessary to add that the soldiers forming the mission guards were enlisted at the expense of the fathers. To be sure, the enlistment was in the king's name, and the soldiers were considered to be in the royal army, but as they were dependent upon the Jesuits for their pay and could be discharged by them for disobedience of orders and also were under command of an officer chosen by the fathers, it may be said that the little army in the peninsula was entirely controlled by the missionaries, who practically owned the barren country and its miserable natives.

 

[Oroblanco]

When the Society was suppressed, the Pope gave the Jesuit possessions to the Franciscans. Many architectural changes were made to the missions to erase the Jesuit baroque style to a more simple Franciscan style.

I find that sentence to be most remarkable, considering the Jesuit missions were mostly mud-brick adobe structures with flat roofs, and the Franciscan structures are far more elaborate (and beautiful for that matter). Example:


<San Xavier del Bac, Arizona, Franciscan>

compare to remains of a once-main Jesuit mission of Guevavi


So to say the Franciscan architecture was "more simple" seems counter to facts on the ground, no?

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[somehiker]

This as well. Without getting into some of the other descriptions of how much the Jesuit missions had suffered from neglect during the interim, and how much may have been looted or misappropriated before the Franciscans arrived, it seems the Jesuits had expensive tastes.

"Junipero was not behind the visitador in tireless energy and work. He visited one mission after another to procure whatever could be spared to supply the needs of the new establishments. The list of the articles he took is an interesting one, showing, as it does, what was considered indispensable to the occupation and settlement of a new country. We find included in the long catalogue, seven large church bells, two heavy copper baptismal fonts, eleven pictures of the Virgin, and many images of Jesus, Joseph, and Mary. To these were added silver phials for sacred oil, silver censers and goblets and purificadores; innumerable brass candlesticks and nineteen complete sets of vestments. Junipero had a rich assortment of church properties to choose from. The expelled Jesuits had prided themselves on the costliness of their sacred vessels. All this church paraphernalia Junipero forwarded to La Paz, the sea-port from which the expedition was to start. It was as impossible in those days for Spain to fit out an expedition of conquests without friars, and a vast amount of church paraphernalia, as it would be nowadays to equip and send out an exploring fleet without a doctor and a well-stocked medicine chest."

 

[deducer]

This as well. Without getting into some of the other descriptions of how much the Jesuit missions had suffered from neglect during the interim, and how much may have been looted or misappropriated before the Franciscans arrived, it seems the Jesuits had expensive tastes.

"Junipero was not behind the visitador in tireless energy and work. He visited one mission after another to procure whatever could be spared to supply the needs of the new establishments. The list of the articles he took is an interesting one, showing, as it does, what was considered indispensable to the occupation and settlement of a new country. We find included in the long catalogue, seven large church bells, two heavy copper baptismal fonts, eleven pictures of the Virgin, and many images of Jesus, Joseph, and Mary. To these were added silver phials for sacred oil, silver censers and goblets and purificadores; innumerable brass candlesticks and nineteen complete sets of vestments. Junipero had a rich assortment of church properties to choose from. The expelled Jesuits had prided themselves on the costliness of their sacred vessels. All this church paraphernalia Junipero forwarded to La Paz, the sea-port from which the expedition was to start. It was as impossible in those days for Spain to fit out an expedition of conquests without friars, and a vast amount of church paraphernalia, as it would be nowadays to equip and send out an exploring fleet without a doctor and a well-stocked medicine chest."

Is this from Junipero Serra, the man and his work By Abigail Hetzel Fitch?

 

[somehiker]

Is this from Junipero Serra, the man and his work By Abigail Hetzel Fitch?

From Joe's link: Heritage History | Homeschool History Curriculum | Junipero Serra by A. H. Fitch

Chapter 4___Missions in Lower California

http://www.heritage-history.com/index.php?c=read&author=fitch&book=serra&story=lower

 

[deducer]

Found it.. on page 64.

I believe it bears remembering that what we today consider "Jesuit treasure" is probably not the same way they viewed it. I believe this is why today's Jesuits expend so much energy in refuting any claims of Jesuit treasure, because they have no expectations that anyone will understand that the earlier Jesuits were simply carrying out Loyola's idea of how a church should be adorned.