JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[deducer]

Old documents, reports and letters are available for the tenacious researcher, sure, but in the realm of bona-fide 'lost mines and hidden treasures' - IMO a much smaller venue than many insist on believing - all that can be expected is smoke, not fire. Disinformation is not a recent tactic - human nature requires that proprietary information remains private, and there are many ways to obfuscate the truth and send the curious down endless blind alleys. Even (especially) official government documents, pious priests' reports and reliable eyewitness memoirs may, by their apparent authority, be seriously gaming you. If you can withhold even 10% of the secret, then it may as well be 100%. What remains is endless circular debate - obviously.

Well, thankfully we are dealing with a topic ("Jesuit treasure") that is not the product of one individual, or something that took place in the space of a day for example, otherwise information would be much harder to verify. We are dealing with something that involved a very large group, and was many years in the undertaking, and so there probably were plenty of communications or documents made over many years that contain information that could be corroborated or verified. Granted, most of those documents directly related to the subject of "Jesuit treasure" are lost to time, stolen, or otherwise inaccessible, but as there is no such thing as absolutes, if we do serious research and take a first-hand look at those letters or documents (I have yet to do this), there should be something out there.

 

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[sailaway]

deducer wrote: I think it doesn't take any more than common sense to survive in the Supes.
yet here on T-net there are people who died in the Superstitions, one example is John V. Kemm. who claimed to find the Lost Dutchman Mine, yet I have looked at his website and he found one of the noses of the horse where it meets the map stone. Yes there will be gold there but does not make it the Lost Dutchman Mine. Not all the clues are there such as the "house" Waltz described. Yet he died there. http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/column.php?id=169267
I believe I got my death toll from Pinal county, Gila county and Maricopa counties records. I would have to dig way back to find the reference source. Pinal county has the best search and rescue team and best trained members in the U.S. Pinal County Search and Rescue (SAR)
Those of you that have been in the high desert know it is different up there than at lower elevations. When I was there it was 120 degrees in Phoenix yet in the mountains it was only 90 degrees. I was out there last summer in mid august and when we woke up it was cold. It takes being prepared for High and low temps up there, so saying not to go in the summer may be bad advice, as early or late in the year you would have to be prepared for snow conditions. I have seen the mountains covered with snow when it was hot in town.
deducer wrote: IMO, a big part of what you are talking about, has to do with being smart
How does being smart have to do with someone else putting a bullet in your head? The way to avoid being killed out there is to go where no one else is and always be with your party. There is a bad element out there and I know that even this site is watched. So be very careful of everything and everyone not in your party. Everything out there wants to kill you and don't take unnecessary chances. I am not paranoid but its the same thing I have told everyone that has joined me, and we always got out alive.

deducer wrote: if we do serious research and take a first-hand look at those letters or documents (I have yet to do this)
you want us to do your research for you? each document has a source, do not take anyone's version, only believe the original, even if you have to translate it yourself. Example being the opinion that Jesuits were anti-catholic when they were actually part of the Catholic Church. Being as i was raised in Spain I know the law there is that everyone is catholic, so i could not be deceived by an opinion.

 

[deducer]

deducer wrote: I think it doesn't take any more than common sense to survive in the Supes.
yet here on T-net there are people who died in the Superstitions, one example is John V. Kemm. who claimed to find the Lost Dutchman Mine, yet I have looked at his website and he found one of the noses of the horse where it meets the map stone. Yes there will be gold there but does not make it the Lost Dutchman Mine. Not all the clues are there such as the "house" Waltz described. Yet he died there. Patrick Bernauw - The Lost Dutchman gold mine found ? - Unexplained Mysteries

I believe I got my death toll from Pinal county, Gila county and Maricopa counties records. I would have to dig way back to find the reference source. Pinal county has the best search and rescue team and best trained members in the U.S. Pinal County Search and Rescue (SAR)

Unless you can provide specific proof that 240 people die every year in the Superstition, I'm going to treat that figure as something that's wildly exaggerated and wholly without merit.

Those of you that have been in the high desert know it is different up there than at lower elevations. When i was there it was 120 degrees in Phoenix yet in the mountains it was only 90 degrees. I was out there last summer in mid august and when we woke up it was cold. It takes being prepared for High and low temps up there, so saying not to go in the summer may be bad advice, as early or late in the year you would have to be prepared for snow conditions. I have seen the mountains covered with snow when it was hot in town.

Going hiking in the height of summer is not recommended. Of course it snows in the peaks in the winter, but there are a few months between summer and winter where the temperature is stable enough for hiking.

deducer wrote: IMO, a big part of what you are talking about, has to do with being smart
How does being smart have to do with someone else putting a bullet in your head? The way to avoid being killed out there is to go where no one else is and always be with your party. There is a bad element out there and I know that even this site is watched. So be very careful of everything and everyone not in your party. Everything out there wants to kill you and don't take unnecessary chances. I am not paranoid but its the same thing I have told everyone that has joined me, and we always got out alive.

AFAIK, there hasn't been a murder associated with the Superstition mountains in a very long time. The only killer out there is going to be your lack of common sense in going out unprepared. There are a few posters on this forum that have hiked many times over many years in the Supes and nothing has happened to them only because they exercised a little common sense.

deducer wrote: if we do serious research and take a first-hand look at those letters or documents (I have yet to do this)
you want us to do your research for you? each document has a source. do not take anyone's version, only believe the original, even if you have to translate it yourself.

I'm not aware of ever having asked anyone to do my research for me, and have no intentions in doing so.

 

[Somero]

I believe I got my death toll from Pinal county, Gila county and Maricopa counties records.

Perhaps you may be looking at the number of illegal's dying in the desert attempting to cross the border.

Those of you that have been in the high desert know it is different up there than at lower elevations. When I was there it was 120 degrees in Phoenix yet in the mountains it was only 90 degrees. I was out there last summer in mid august and when we woke up it was cold. It takes being prepared for High and low temps up there, so saying not to go in the summer may be bad advice, as early or late in the year you would have to be prepared for snow conditions. I have seen the mountains covered with snow when it was hot in town.

I believe I fall into the desert dweller category, and yes it can be cooler if your "up in the pines" HOWEVER, my definition of hot is a 100 + and I have never seen snow on the Superstitions past early April. Usually the light dusting they rarely/occasionally receive is gone within a couple days depending on the speed of the cold front moving through.

To say "so saying not to go in the summer may be bad advice" is rather foolish if you are concerned about people dying out there.

 

[Somero]

My map of Tumacacori has on it the coordinates of 111 degrees and 33 degrees with dots that if you add the dots in thier locations on the map, then show the dots as numbers these are EXACTLY where the Mina Virgon is, which means Tumacacori was not originally where it is today?

If I remember correctly Lat and Long was off just a bit, not just which prime meridian was used but due to the problems they were having with the Apache. So unfortunately we have to re-calculate from specific landmarks using today's lat and long, compare to older coordinates given, attempt to triangulate and convert older measurements just to get a general area.

 

[Oroblanco]

Sailaway wrote

yet here on T-net there are people who died in the Superstitions, one example is John V. Kemm. who claimed to find the Lost Dutchman Mine, yet I have looked at his website and he found one of the noses of the horse where it meets the map stone. Yes there will be gold there but does not make it the Lost Dutchman Mine. Not all the clues are there such as the "house" Waltz described. Yet he died there. http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com....php?id=169267

John V. Kemm, aka SantaFeNewMexican did not die in the Superstitions amigo, he owns a smoke shop in Albuqurque and is still very much alive or was the last time I went through that city a year ago. Adolph Ruth died in the Superstitions, almost certainly murdered by one of the two men he had hired to pack him in, but in 1931. Mr. Kemm seems to have lost interest in the Lost Dutchman, perhaps from not being able to convince people that he found it by the use of satellite photos without actually checking his location in person.


Somero has correctly found the source of that figure of 240 deaths per year, it is the illegal immigrants crossing or trying to cross the desert into America, which has nothing to do with the Superstitions mountains, Tumacacori, lost mines or LUE treasure. If that many people died or were murdered in the Superstitions each year, it would not be very long before the government would step in and make it illegal to enter those mountains at all.


Sailaway also wrote

When I was there it was 120 degrees in Phoenix yet in the mountains it was only 90 degrees. I was out there last summer in mid august and when we woke up it was cold. It takes being prepared for High and low temps up there, so saying not to go in the summer may be bad advice, as early or late in the year you would have to be prepared for snow conditions. I have seen the mountains covered with snow when it was hot in town.

I believe that MOST of the people who DO get into serious trouble in the Superstition mountains happens in the summer months. There is very little shade in the mountains as you know, and when the temperatures rise above body heat, your body requires up to a quart an hour of water to stay alive. As you can not feel your body dehydrating to the point of danger, people can die without realizing they are in serious trouble. I will stick by that advice to NOT go exploring in the Superstitions in summer time, especially for someone new to the area. Why take that additional risk when it can be most pleasant during the spring and fall months with FAR less danger of dehydration and heat stroke?


Somero wrote

If I remember correctly Lat and Long was off just a bit, not just which prime meridian was used but due to the problems they were having with the Apache. So unfortunately we have to re-calculate from specific landmarks using today's lat and long, compare to older coordinates given, attempt to triangulate and convert older measurements just to get a general area.

Correct - in fact the longitude figures in particular are often off notably, up to two degree in some cases, in part due to the fact there was no good way to find longitude prior to John Harrison's discovery and chronometer, (1773?) anyway even then the use of accurate chronometers did not become widespread until the end of the 1700s and maps prior to 1800 often have longitude errors on them. So what Somero says about these OLD longitude figures being only good for getting a GENERAL IDEA of location is completely right. Conversely, the Latitude figures from the 1700s and even older, are often fairly accurate.


Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

Reading some posts on this topic, and others, you may suspect that some people may not understand what they read. IMHO, that problem readily attaches itself to Internet searches. Many of the folks who have that problem, search for key-words and receive limited information. I believe it is very difficult to understand history if you limit your research to the result of, specific, key-word searches.

One of the reasons I have so many books on the subjects I'm interested in, is because I feel it's important to know the record of what occured before and after historic events, as well as different opinions on the same topic, to be able to create an informed opinion. While not infallable, it certainly makes the event(s) you are interested in much easier to unnderstand.

This post, obviously, is not about you, or any other poster specifically.

Just one man's opinion.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Old Lat & Long measurement correctins are fairly simple.

Don Jos de La Mncha

 

[Somero]

Old Lat & Long measurement correctins are fairly simple.

Don Jos de La Mncha

As long as your not trying to make them fit to "what you think is the X" as opposed to using them to actually find the X

 

[sailaway]

Oro has a thread of: http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/lost-dutchman-s-mine/188353-missing-total-missing-dead.html
I may have been looking at more than just lost Dutchman hunters it was 4 years ago when I wrote that figure in my notes. We are human after all and just going by my notes. I was only stating why I personally started looking for the mine.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'd afternoon my friend, take a noon day shot for due south with which you can calibrate your watch or time reckoning necessities. Admittedly not precise. -- while I am making a new pot
of coffee.

Sheesh was just thinking, in my day I was lucky to get within perhaps 1000 meters, today with the cheapest GPS i can get to within 9 ft most of the time.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Relax sailaway, on something like this the 'intention' is the important factor, I for one thank you for posting it. I spent years in exploring in remote or unknown places, I am aware that over emphasizing is in general better than painting a rosy picture.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[sailaway]

Thank you Don, it was really bothering me that it would look like I just make things up, yet it was in my notes. With age (even tough am only 54) I find it hard to remember unless I write it down and many times I do not show in my notes where I got the information as it was only for my personal benefit. I have changed the post from a figure to many as I have no idea where I read that. I research data banks and could have been a total figure for all I know.
Going to have to get a sun sight at noon to make sure the brass still works

 

[deducer]

I think it's fairly simple: don't treat us like we're a bunch of fools and you won't feel like a fool.

If you take a little time and read through the history of treasurenet.com you'll find that there is very little that hasn't been covered at least once before. There are some very informed posters on here so it's not like you're talking about things nobody knows anything about.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

One never knows deducer, until one posts it. I have true data on the Tayopa which has never been posted in here, or anywhere for that matter.

Sometimes a slight variation may 'click' for someone, it has for me..

Remember, this is sort of relaxed fireside chat room, not a formal presentation of a thesis.

As far as I am concerned, a spontaneous post is fine, even if it is somewhat incorrect,

Unfortunately even """I""" make mistakes, Oro will happily tell you how many, like my wife, he can remember 50 years back.

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. perhaps he can remember the why's of my nickname.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good afternoon Deducer,there are,, there are but since they are basically locked up in the Jesuit "need to know" files in The Vatican, access is probably similar to gaining access the the NSA or CIA files for a given day. Even Congress / the Senate hasn't the authority, although theoretically they do.

I would love to access those "Need to know only " files

Don Jose de La Mancha (el 007 de treasure net )

 

[Oroblanco]

Thank you Don, it was really bothering me that it would look like I just make things up, yet it was in my notes. With age (even tough am only 54) I find it hard to remember unless I write it down and many times I do not show in my notes where I got the information as it was only for my personal benefit. I have changed the post from a figure to many as I have no idea where I read that. I research data banks and could have been a total figure for all I know.
Going to have to get a sun sight at noon to make sure the brass still works

Hola amigo - I did not think you just made that up about the people dying, it is a real figure and tragic that so many people die trying to cross our deserts. Some of those people are treated very terribly, being hauled across the border and simply dumped in the middle of the desert, and you know the result. There have been cases where a group of 'illegal' Mexicans was brought across the border in a semi-trailer, then left in it, locked in, in 120 degree heat which killed all inside. Unfortunately there is little we can do about this.

Cactusjumper - I have a close friend whom is slightly dislexic, and very often gets things transposed, which leads to some confusing discussions - we all make mistakes for that matter, I certainly do more than my fair share!

Don Jose de la Mancha - shall we talk about your OTHER nickname, referring to el pistole aka a particular over-sized body part?

 

[gollum]

First,

A little about the San Xavier Parish Statue. I emailed the Church saying that I was told years ago the statue was of Father Rojas SJ, and a friend just told me it was Fra Serra OFM. I asked if they could please clear up the matter for me.

I just received an email stating that the statue was of Fra Serra because of his continuing the work of the Jesuits in Mission Building in the New World.

However, I do believe the stories from the Desert USA Forum. Could it be that the whole Rojas thing was kind of on the down-low? I don't know. It wouldn't be the first secret the Jesuits have had to make up a story for to keep.

Mike

 

[Infosponge]

Good evening Friends,

Oro you posted,

in fact the longitude figures in particular are often off notably, up to two degree in some cases, in part due to the fact there was no good way to find longitude prior to John Harrison's discovery and chronometer, (1773?) anyway even then the use of accurate chronometers did not become widespread until the end of the 1700s and maps prior to 1800 often have longitude errors on them. So what Somero says about these OLD longitude figures being only good for getting a GENERAL IDEA of location is completely right. Conversely, the Latitude figures from the 1700s and even older, are often fairly accurate.

John Harrison's use of the chronometer was a solution for the problem of using time piece's to calculate longitude on ships. It was problematic using timepieces on board ships, because there were none made at that time that could withstand the rigors of rolling, pitching, and yawing of the ship. However, good timepieces, especially pendulum clocks, were used accurately to determine longitude on land. Furthermore, it is well documented that the Jesuits had pendulum clocks, (one was listed in the inventory done by the Franciscan's, when they took over for the Jesuits at San Xavier del Bac in Tucson, and Father Och wrote the following indicating that he had a pocket watch: "Another sort of game for them [Indians] is a race which is run even to a distance of two hours. This they do with such speed that even the best riders, the witnesses and judges, can hardly keep up with them on horseback. The race is to a specific goal and back again, and they must run it without a moment's pause for rest lest time be lost. When I noted on my watch the exceptionally short elapsed time of the runners, it appeared impossible to me that they could have reached their goal. However, witnesses of the race confirmed that they had reached it, and the prize of the day was given to the fleetest one." Joseph Och, S.J. 1755-1767 p 160.

Sincerely,

Infosponge

 

[Oroblanco]

Infosponge, thank you, however I respectfully disagree on several grounds. Yes there were fairly good clocks around by the fifteenth century, however it find latitude accurately requierd having the correct time for a known location, then getting the difference at a different location. Over long distances, with clock accuracy/inaccuracies, and NO standards of time zones, we still see longitude errors on land maps.

I have found record of people having calculated longitude as far back as the ancient Greeks, using rather simple clocks and sundials of their day, of course with Alexandria as the prime meridian So I am not taking the position that it was impossible for people to calculate longitude in the mid 1700s, only that it was not too accurate. The best method in use was by observing lunar eclipses, compared with a table of the predicted times for a known location, and comparing the difference which was fairly accurate but lunar eclipses are not too handy.

As an example, from Rudo Ensayo

Real de la Santísima Trinidad, 28 degrees, 12 minutes latitude, 267 degrees longitude <126 W, from Nentvig> actual GPS is 28.3667 north, 109.2667 west, allowing for the different prime meridian this is still off.