JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[Oroblanco]

Thanks Joe I was just wondering whether Lamar would say Guadalajara was a real historical Jesuit, and whether he had ever visited Teopari. I was expecting him to say NO to both questions. Now he can't make that mistake.
Oroblanco

 

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[Oroblanco]

Lamar wrote

do not focus on petty, irrelevant facts

Thanks for the laughs on that one, you don't know how ironic that came across.

Oroblanco

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

"Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain...................."

B

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

good morning Lamar Your post is basically quite true, you posted -->

Trying to calculate varas, or even codos for that matter, is nearly impossible without an accurate point of reference,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In most cases I agree, but you are not taking into consideration that I already had the distances from another document, they are posted in my picture, also I had the point of reference, the door of the Capilla of Tayopa.

Once I had found Los Remedios, it was a simple procedure to back measure and convert to the correct measurement for the other mines.

Actually, this wasn't even necessry, it's main benifit was in semi verifying the truth / accuracy of the documnet itself.
t****************************************************************
You also posted -->

I think that the units of measurements also changed at different times in the New World colonies as well
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yes, they did. I took that into account to arrive at my simple conversion formula.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Oro, Joe, Teopare was not associated with the Tayopa of legend, but #1. that is way way north of my Tayopa.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

"Oro, Joe, Teopare was not associated with the Tayopa of legend, but #1. that is way way north of my Tayopa."

That's very true, and it's a bit of distance south of bb's Tayopa.

How does it stack up with Nino Cochise's Tayopa?

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

I must have missed something here. Your question was:

[Don Jose' - I have a question for you; was Teopari "wiped out" in the Baja Pima rebellion of 1740? This would "match" the story of the Opata still living at the ranch 'Tayopa' in possession of a Tayopa document, who said that Pimas wiped out the town and his ancestors retaliated, and that was how it was recovered from them and passed on to him. I can't seem to find a map for around 1750 which still shows Teopari. Thank you in advance,

Oroblanco]
_______________________________

My reply was:

[Teopare is around 60 miles slightly northeast of what is today called Tayopa. The first baptisms began in 1676 and in 1677 the first resident priest, Domingo Miguel was installed there. He left in 1680 and took up residence in Sahuaripa. At that point, Teopare became a visita of Sahuaripa. It went back and forth between being a visita and a cabecera. The last change in its status came about when in 1748 an order came depopulating Natora.

The last Jesuit mention of Teopare came in a report from visitador Lizasoain after he travelled through the area in 1761. The most impressive thing about Teopare, for him, was the terrible trail from Sahuaripa. After the expulsion Teopare fell under the jurisdiction of the
Jaliscans.

There are the ruins, around three or four feet high, of a small church located on Teopare Ranch. It faces south. It is located on the Rio Teopare. The priest who built this church was Jose Escalona. He left in 1743 and there was no priest serving again until Bartolome Saenz came in 1748, and stayed only a very short time.

Would this be the same as the Teopari you were asking about?]
_________________________________________________

You replied:

[Yes Cactusjumper that is the Teopari or Tyopari I am referring to, and yes I know it was founded in 1676, by the same people (descendants of survivors that is) of the original Tayopa. The 'original' was founded in 1600, can't recall the name of the padre however.
Oroblanco]
________________________________________________

I thought my reply answered your question: [....was Teopari "wiped out" in the Baja Pima rebellion of 1740?] fairly well. In your last reply, the name of the padre seems to be an important element.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,

Cactusjumper wrote

I thought my reply answered your question: [....was Teopari "wiped out" in the Baja Pima rebellion of 1740?] fairly well. In your last reply, the name of the padre seems to be an important element

Yes your post answered that question, and from local "legends" there were survivors of the 1740 uprising; of course being from Indians we must toss out any info since they were only telling the Anglos what they wanted to hear. My question ought to have been phrased, how many Indios were left after that uprising, for we have an actual census figure for 1730, yet there seems to be too small of a population only a couple decades later to make a "blip". Some of these people were living in caves (or tunnels) by the mid-1760's, which is at variance with their documented removal or emigration - seems that some did not wish to leave.

The importance of the name of that padre really only relates for historical ref, I don't see that any particular name of any particular padre is terribly important viz treasure. Besides, a priest is not a lay brother, and lay brothers are the men I believe are most probably directly responsible. Of course then there are also "neophytes", "fiscals" etc it is unfair to attribute all mining to priests.

A question for you Joe, do you still classify Tayopa as a "legendary mine" and a "legendary mission"? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

<PS I can't stay to visit long, have to get back to work but thought I would drop in. Will be signing off soon.>

 

[somehiker]

Good Evening Roy/All:
Just got this link from an e-mail.
Ya gotta know who I am thinkin is in that box.....right?
Maybe a couple of fellas.....
I'm crackin up



Enjoy:SH

 

[somehiker]

What's even funnier.
If you download it using realplayer.
It re-titles the video..........wait...........JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?
UFB..........SH.

 

[Oroblanco]

LOL

Sheesh now I think about it, surprising that machine hasn't sold like hotcakes. Maybe I speak too soon....
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

I posted this earlier, and nothing has been presented that would change my mind:

[I am sure you are aware that the mines in the area were discovered in 1739. There is no record of the people in that area ever being served by Jesuits. During that era the people in the real "were taken care of by Franciscans from the hospice of Arivechi."

Has anyone ever looked into a Jesuit priest named, "Ignacio Maria de Retana"? So far, I have been unable to find this priest in any of my sources. Admittedly, my search has been somewhat cursory at this point......Lamar

I assume we are talking about "Nuestra Senora de Guadalupe de Tayopa Mission", but not the new church built in the early 20th. Century. The old building was around 1 1/2 miles away. The walls of that building are reduced to about one foot high, and the campo santo which is still used for burials is located at this old site.]
____________________________

If you remove Tayopa from it's historical location and move it elsewhere.......without documentation, anything is possible. IMHO, Tayopa, the mine, had to be moved because there were no Jesuits at Nuestra Senora de Guadalupe de Tayopa.

In other words: If the legend does not fit with reality, you must change the reality. Tayopa is reality, the mine is legend.

On the other hand, the old location of Tayopa is "about a mile and a half closer to the mineral scared mountain."

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,

I posted this earlier, and nothing has been presented that would change my mind:

[I am sure you are aware that the mines in the area were discovered in 1739. There is no record of the people in that area ever being served by Jesuits. During that era the people in the real "were taken care of by Franciscans from the hospice of Arivechi."

Has anyone ever looked into a Jesuit priest named, "Ignacio Maria de Retana"? So far, I have been unable to find this priest in any of my sources. Admittedly, my search has been somewhat cursory at this point......Lamar

I assume we are talking about "Nuestra Senora de Guadalupe de Tayopa Mission", but not the new church built in the early 20th. Century. The old building was around 1 1/2 miles away. The walls of that building are reduced to about one foot high, and the campo santo which is still used for burials is located at this old site.]
____________________________

If you remove Tayopa from it's historical location and move it elsewhere.......without documentation, anything is possible. IMHO, Tayopa, the mine, had to be moved because there were no Jesuits at Nuestra Senora de Guadalupe de Tayopa.

In other words: If the legend does not fit with reality, you must change the reality. Tayopa is reality, the mine is legend.

On the other hand, the old location of Tayopa is "about a mile and a half closer to the mineral scared mountain."

Take care,

Joe

Several points you have raised here, I will try to address each.

First, it is not possible to PROVE that a Jesuit named de Retana was the man whom cast the bells for the original Tayopa. He may not have been Jesuit. He may have been - we do not have the names of all the Jesuits whom were active in Nueva Espana from 1590 to 1640's or any other period. We have shown that there were in fact de Retanas in Mexico during the colonial period, and one example showed some affinities for both mining and the Jesuit order, though he lived a full generation later than the 1603 date. Lamar stated there were no such people with that name, and not in Mexico in the colonial period, which we have shown to be erroneous.

According to another source (and we do not have the originals found by Flipper) the padre whom cast the bells in 1603 was named Father Lorenzo. It is possible that we have the names wrong, which does not make the inventory false.

I believe you are mistaken about the Franciscan involvement at the earliest date, though this was a problem as the Franciscans were "poaching" in the Jesuit regions, five Franciscans were even sent into Sonora with the 'blessing' of the civil authorities, along with some colonists - none of these five were assigned to Tayopa or Teopari. The Franciscans <who arrived in the 1640's> and Jesuits reached an agreement defining their territories in the 1650's, with the Franciscans being allowed the regions to the east. On the expulsion of the Jesuits, the Franciscans took over their territories - so in that sense, Tayopa is tied both to the Jesuits and the Franciscans.

Next, I would point out that the "legend" of Tayopa is a complex story, which involves not just Nuestra Senora de Guadalupe de Tayopa Mission but also San Jose de Teopari; in fact even the slight differences in the names (and there are many evolutions of the Tayopa name) points to a successor mission, similar to Guaynopa and Guaynopita, Guaynopa being the first discovered of those two, and they are near each other but you see the similarity in the names. I don't think anyone would claim that Guaynopa and Guaynopita are NOT directly related, historically. This fact, that there are several Tayopas which date to separate time periods, has been one of the factors which prevented the unraveling of the locations.

The Tayopa #2, associated with Teopari does have mines (plural) associated with it; silver mostly, but there is no Paramo gold placer nearby. The Dios Padre is only one of the mines of this mission, several others were re-discovered in the mid-1860's one of which was worked secretly. One mine which produced enough silver to make a legend in itself;

The Dona Maria Mine in the Huacal District was once exploited by a Spanish widow Dona Maria de Rodriquez who during many years of hard work accumulated great wealth in the shape of ingots. These she stored in a strong and well guarded room in her dwelling. Deciding to pass the remainder of her life in Spain she loaded her treasure on the backs of 40 mules and with a small army of retainers travelled to the City of Mexico. It was estimated that each mule carried 200 lbs of gold and silver bars so that at that time the tangible wealth of the industrious vitida was represented by four tons of precious metal According to the old chronicler this estimable lady did not breathe freely until she had deposited her fortune in the hands of the Spanish Viceroy in the capital soon thereafter she ceased to breathe entirely for she suddenly and mysteriously disappeared. The common report was that she had been murdered and her great fortune appropriated This seems to have been the case as the indictment was never successfully disproved

Another lost mine from the same general region, interesting report which is similar to the story of Tayopa

One of the mines of the Estrella del Norte Mining Co near Arispe was lost for many years. The only record touching its location was a notation on an old Jesuit map to the effect that the opening of the tunnel can be seen from the door of the Mission Church. For years the hills in front of this door were searched for miles with no results. In 1905 a side wall of the old church crumbled to ruins and disclosed a hidden door whose existence had never been suspected From this door a prospector searched the hill side with a field glass located the lost mine and found a huge fortune therein.

<from Terry's Guide to Mexico>

I respectfully disagree that we are "changing reality" only changing our understanding of it. Just with the example of Tayopa #2, we have a real Jesuit mission, real Jesuit priests, and real silver mines. Hardly what I would call "legendary" unless in the same vein as saying "legendary George Washington".

The Tayopa documents found by Henry Flipper tie Tayopa and its treasures & mines directly to the Jesuits, if not in 1603 then definitely in 1646. By dismissing them, you ignore the very "proof" you desire. I would suggest that if you wish to disprove Tayopa's connection with the Jesuits, then those documents (which included some marriage bans, baptismal records and other somewhat peripheral documents) would be your 'target'.

The whole story of Tayopa would fill a very thick book, and some of the history can be documented. Some of the bells cast at Tayopa #1 later turned up in a Franciscan mission at Baroyeca, which also had a mining history but with Franciscans as the original discoverers.

Good luck and good hunting Joe and everyone, I hope you find the treasures that you seek. Even the legendary ones.
Oroblanco

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
Bells were not cast in the New World colonies until the late 1700s or early 1800s. This means that if those bells did in fact exist they would have been cast in Europe and then sent to the New World via ship.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Oroblanco]

Dear group;
Bells were not cast in the New World colonies until the late 1700s or early 1800s. This means that if those bells did in fact exist they would have been cast in Europe and then sent to the New World via ship.
Your friend;
LAMAR

LATE 1700's? Have you already forgotten Father Och and his copper bells? Remember he had them cast by a "fugitive from justice" bellmaker who lived in the 'wild frontier'? The bells in Bayocera all have dates between 1643 and 1646. So you are now saying that no bells were cast at Guevavi prior to the "late" 1700's also? Just curious at your new approach here, though I see you also say "if" they exist.
Oroblanco

 

[lamar]

Dear Oroblanco;
Copper cast bells don't go BONGGG! They break. This may not be the stuff of legends however it is a metallurical fact. Copper is far too soft to be utilized as a bell casting material utilizing the methods of the era. Silver is even softer, therefore it is HIGHLY doubtful that anyone would have attempted to cast a working bell from either silver or copper.

Bell metal was using for bell founding and it consisted of a 3:1 mixture of copper(78%) to tin(22%) in it's most basic form. ONly in Russia was silver added to alloying process which supposedly gave the bells a lower further carrying tonal quality, however their casting methods counteracted the silver content somewhat.

Also, the Spanish government frowned heavily upon uncontrolled bell casting, as the same people who could cast bells could also cast cannons and the Spanish government did not wish to have a bunch of wayward cannons lying about the colonies in case a rebellion broke out.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

Your post raises many questions.

"The Tayopa documents found by Henry Flipper tie Tayopa and its treasures & mines directly to the Jesuits, if not in 1603 then definitely in 1646. By dismissing them, you ignore the very "proof" you desire. I would suggest that if you wish to disprove Tayopa's connection with the Jesuits, then those documents (which included some marriage bans, baptismal records and other somewhat peripheral documents) would be your 'target'."

Why is it that those "Tayopa documents" can no longer be found?

"I believe you are mistaken about the Franciscan involvement at the earliest date, though this was a problem as the Franciscans were "poaching" in the Jesuit regions, five Franciscans were even sent into Sonora with the 'blessing' of the civil authorities, along with some colonists - none of these five were assigned to Tayopa or Teopari. The Franciscans <who arrived in the 1640's> and Jesuits reached an agreement defining their territories in the 1650's, with the Franciscans being allowed the regions to the east. On the expulsion of the Jesuits, the Franciscans took over their territories - so in that sense, Tayopa is tied both to the Jesuits and the Franciscans."

I believe you may have your history a little confused here, but I could be wrong. As I remember, the Franciscans were in Mexico long before the Jesuits. Their missions were in the eastern region. They had ignored the western valleys of the Sierra Madre Occidental. The Governor of Nueva Vizcaya, appealed to the Society of Jesus to create a new mission field in that area.

It was mining that brought the Jesuits northward, but that mining was being established by the Crown, not Jesuit greed.

I assume that you are aware that the Jesuits asked for others, Secular and Franciscan, to take over many of their missions. Others they simply abandoned or turned them into visita's.

You have posted a number of pictures of richly adorned churches here. Can you tell me if Mexico had any to match those you have shown.......in the Jesuit mission fields? In those same missions, can you name the richest as well as the mine that connected it directly to the Jesuits. No proof, just the allegation will suffice.

Kino has been linked to this mining and treasures. Can you tell me which mission he showered with wealth, possibly one that was his favorite?

If, as Mike has suggested, a string of missions was established in order to move the Jesuit treasures to the coast, to be shipped to the Vatican, why search for their treasures here? It has also been suggested that the Jesuits had ample warning of the impending expulsion.
Why do you suppose they didn't just use this mission system to ship everything to the Vatican? Why can't those missions be named so we can research their histories.

Why, when the evidence gets too thin, do you folks always revert to the nameless, secret society of the Laymen? Each time you are unable to produce an answer, it's time to bring out the bogeyman hiding under the Jesuit sleeping mats. Did Kino have such a secret helper?

For me, the evidence you are all producing seems even less than circumstantial. Of course I could be wrong.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Dear Oroblanco;
Copper cast bells don't go BONGGG! They break. This may not be the stuff of legends however it is a metallurical fact. Copper is far too soft to be utilized as a bell casting material utilizing the methods of the era. Silver is even softer, therefore it is HIGHLY doubtful that anyone would have attempted to cast a working bell from either silver or copper.

Bell metal was using for bell founding and it consisted of a 3:1 mixture of copper(78%) to tin(22%) in it's most basic form. ONly in Russia was silver added to alloying process which supposedly gave the bells a lower further carrying tonal quality, however their casting methods counteracted the silver content somewhat.

Also, the Spanish government frowned heavily upon uncontrolled bell casting, as the same people who could cast bells could also cast cannons and the Spanish government did not wish to have a bunch of wayward cannons lying about the colonies in case a rebellion broke out.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Not to get overly picky here, but who said that Father Och's copper bells were cast ONLY of copper, or that the bells cast at Guevavi or Tayopa were cast ONLY of silver? You are making an assumption there amigo. I am no expert in metallurgy, but I know that addition of small amounts of antimony serve to make soft metals harder. Softness of the metal will not make it fail as a bell amigo, in fact that very softness makes it far more likely to survive ringing and striking. Very hard, very brittle metals are the type which are un-suitable for bells. Or do we now have to drag out photos and documentation to show you that yes, copper bells work very well indeed, as do silver or GOLD bells. Where are you going with this tack? Trying to deny the existence of bells, and the casting of them? I will remind you with this post
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,286969.msg2081397.html#msg2081397

Would you care to post some Spanish regulations prohibiting bell-casting, and it must date to prior to 1767? I don't believe this angle of attack is going to work out for you.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Dear Lamar,

"Bell metal was using for bell founding and it consisted of a 3:1 mixture of copper(78%) to tin(22%) in it's most basic form. ONly in Russia was silver added to alloying process which supposedly gave the bells a lower further carrying tonal quality, however their casting methods counteracted the silver content somewhat."

You are mistaken about silver being added only in Russia. Bell makers in the Southwest added silver to their bells......on a regular basis. I did some research into church/mission bells, and have copies of historical letters and documents to prove the point.

I have also read that bells the equal or better of those being made in Spain, were being produced in
"northern New Spain". This from the historian, Benjamin Read. I have copies of some of his letters and research.

[Like everything and everyone in San Miguel, the town's striking centrepiece has its own trademark tale. Originally constructed in 1683, the church was slated for a facelift in 1880. The main artisan in charge of construction was an Indian named Zefferino Gutierrez who is said to have modelled the refurbished structure from a postcard he had found of a French cathedral.

Situated in the heart of town, the church's melodious bells ring almost constantly but are most noticeable in the wee morning hours when it seems an over-enthusiastic priest is himself zestfully tugging the ropes in an attempt to rouse non-pious gringos. It is said that the first bell cast in 1732 contains gold melted from jewelry belonging to rich locals who believed their donation would help improve the sound.]

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Sorry I was replying to Lamar's post, and your post came in a moment earlier.

Cactusjumper wrote

Why is it that those "Tayopa documents" can no longer be found?

It MAY be possible to track down SOME or all of them; I don't know for certain what the disposition of Henry Flipper's estate was.

Cactusjumper also wrote

I believe you may have your history a little confused here, but I could be wrong. As I remember, the Franciscans were in Mexico long before the Jesuits. Their missions were in the eastern region. They had ignored the western valleys of the Sierra Madre Occidental. The Governor of Nueva Vizcaya, appealed to the Society of Jesus to create a new mission field in that area.

The Franciscans arrived in Mexico in 1523-24; the first Jesuits in 1583. The first missionaries to enter Sonora/Sinaloa establishing missions were Jesuits however, unless you count the abortive settlement of Corazones founded by a lieutenant of Coronado, which was gone by the time of the 1590's Jesuit 'entrada'.

Cactusjumper also wrote

It was mining that brought the Jesuits northward, but that mining was being established by the Crown, not Jesuit greed.

That is your take on the subject, I respectfully disagree. The Jesuits were founding missions amongst the Indios before the arrival of Spanish miners, and we may note that it was Jesuit reports of the mineral wealth of various regions which attracted Spanish settlers there.

Cactusjumper also wrote

You have posted a number of pictures of richly adorned churches here. Can you tell me if Mexico had any to match those you have shown.......in the Jesuit mission fields? In those same missions, can you name the richest as well as the mine that connected it directly to the Jesuits. No proof, just the allegation will suffice.

No, I would be guessing as to which was "richest".

Cactusjumper also wrote

Kino has been linked to this mining and treasures. Can you tell me which mission he showered with wealth, possibly one that was his favorite?

No, perhaps you can enlighten us?

Cactusjumper also wrote

If, as Mike has suggested, a string of missions was established in order to move the Jesuit treasures to the coast, to be shipped to the Vatican, why search for their treasures here? It has also been suggested that the Jesuits had ample warning of the impending expulsion.
Why do you suppose they didn't just use this mission system to ship everything to the Vatican? Why can't those missions be named so we can research their histories.

I have already posted one example, relating to Tayopa, the seizures or "donacions" at Spain; I don't propose that the Jesuits did NOT use that mission system to smuggle out silver and gold. Mike can answer the rest of your question here.

Cactusjumper also wrote

Why, when the evidence gets too thin, do you folks always revert to the nameless, secret society of the Laymen? Each time you are unable to produce an answer, it's time to bring out the bogeyman hiding under the Jesuit sleeping mats. Did Kino have such a secret helper?

For me, the evidence you are all producing seems even less than circumstantial. Of course I could be wrong.

Evidence too thin? You doubt there ARE Lay Brothers, whom are not listed or even mentioned very often? You already know the answer about Kino, he was certainly NOT alone during his many travels.

For you the evidence may seem "even less than circumstantial" but I for one respectfully disagree. You also seem to forget that for the Jesuit claims of never having ANY mines nor ANY treasures (as has been posted here on T-net repeatedly) there must be NO evidence of any kind.

Oroblanco