Cactusjumper wrote
cactusjumper said:
Roy,
I posted this earlier, and nothing has been presented that would change my mind:
[I am sure you are aware that the mines in the area were discovered in 1739. There is no record of the people in that area ever being served by Jesuits. During that era the people in the real "were taken care of by Franciscans from the hospice of Arivechi."
Has anyone ever looked into a Jesuit priest named, "
Ignacio Maria de Retana"? So far, I have been unable to find this priest in any of my sources. Admittedly, my search has been somewhat cursory at this point......
Lamar
I assume we are talking about "Nuestra Senora de Guadalupe de Tayopa Mission", but not the new church built in the early 20th. Century. The old building was around 1 1/2 miles away. The walls of that building are reduced to about one foot high, and the
campo santo which is still used for burials is located at this old site.]
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If you remove Tayopa from it's historical location and move it elsewhere.......without documentation, anything is possible. IMHO, Tayopa, the mine, had to be moved because there were no Jesuits at Nuestra Senora de Guadalupe de Tayopa.
In other words: If the legend does not fit with reality, you must change the reality. Tayopa is reality, the mine is legend.
On the other hand, the old location of Tayopa is "about a mile and a half closer to the mineral scared mountain."
Take care,
Joe
Several points you have raised here, I will try to address each.
First, it is not possible to PROVE that a Jesuit named de Retana was the man whom cast the bells for the original Tayopa. He may not have been Jesuit. He may have been - we do not have the names of all the Jesuits whom were active in Nueva Espana from 1590 to 1640's or any other period. We have shown that there were in fact de Retanas in Mexico during the colonial period, and one example showed some affinities for both mining and the Jesuit order, though he lived a full generation later than the 1603 date. Lamar stated there were no such people with that name, and not in Mexico in the colonial period, which we have shown to be erroneous.
According to another source (and we do not have the originals found by Flipper) the padre whom cast the bells in 1603 was named Father Lorenzo. It is possible that we have the names wrong, which does not make the inventory false.
I believe you are mistaken about the Franciscan involvement at the earliest date, though this was a problem as the Franciscans were "poaching" in the Jesuit regions, five Franciscans were even sent into Sonora with the 'blessing' of the civil authorities, along with some colonists - none of these five were assigned to Tayopa or Teopari. The Franciscans <
who arrived in the 1640's> and Jesuits reached an agreement defining their territories in the 1650's, with the Franciscans being allowed the regions to the east. On the expulsion of the Jesuits, the Franciscans took over their territories - so in that sense, Tayopa is tied both to the Jesuits and the Franciscans.
Next, I would point out that the "legend" of Tayopa is a complex story, which involves not just Nuestra Senora de Guadalupe de Tayopa Mission but also San Jose de Teopari; in fact even the slight differences in the names (and there are many evolutions of the Tayopa name) points to a successor mission, similar to Guaynopa and Guaynopita, Guaynopa being the first discovered of those two, and they are near each other but you see the similarity in the names. I don't think anyone would claim that Guaynopa and Guaynopita are NOT directly related, historically. This fact, that there are several Tayopas which date to separate time periods, has been one of the factors which prevented the unraveling of the locations.
The Tayopa #2, associated with Teopari does have mines (plural) associated with it; silver mostly, but there is no Paramo gold placer nearby. The Dios Padre is only
one of the mines of this mission, several others were re-discovered in the mid-1860's one of which was worked secretly. One mine which produced enough silver to make a legend in itself;
The Dona Maria Mine in the Huacal District was once exploited by a Spanish widow Dona Maria de Rodriquez who during many years of hard work accumulated great wealth in the shape of ingots. These she stored in a strong and well guarded room in her dwelling. Deciding to pass the remainder of her life in Spain she loaded her treasure on the backs of 40 mules and with a small army of retainers travelled to the City of Mexico. It was estimated that each mule carried 200 lbs of gold and silver bars so that at that time the tangible wealth of the industrious vitida was represented by four tons of precious metal According to the old chronicler this estimable lady did not breathe freely until she had deposited her fortune in the hands of the Spanish Viceroy in the capital soon thereafter she ceased to breathe entirely for she suddenly and mysteriously disappeared. The common report was that she had been murdered and her great fortune appropriated This seems to have been the case as the indictment was never successfully disproved
Another lost mine from the same general region, interesting report which is similar to the story of Tayopa
One of the mines of the Estrella del Norte Mining Co near Arispe was lost for many years. The only record touching its location was a notation on an old Jesuit map to the effect that the opening of the tunnel can be seen from the door of the Mission Church. For years the hills in front of this door were searched for miles with no results. In 1905 a side wall of the old church crumbled to ruins and disclosed a hidden door whose existence had never been suspected From this door a prospector searched the hill side with a field glass located the lost mine and found a huge fortune therein.
<from Terry's Guide to Mexico>
I respectfully disagree that we are "changing reality" only changing our understanding of it. Just with the example of Tayopa #2, we have a real Jesuit mission, real Jesuit priests, and real silver mines. Hardly what I would call "legendary" unless in the same vein as saying "legendary George Washington".
The Tayopa documents found by Henry Flipper tie Tayopa and its treasures & mines directly to the Jesuits, if not in 1603 then definitely in 1646. By dismissing them, you ignore the very "proof" you desire. I would suggest that if you wish to disprove Tayopa's connection with the Jesuits, then those documents (which included some marriage bans, baptismal records and other somewhat peripheral documents) would be your 'target'.
The whole story of Tayopa would fill a very thick book, and some of the history can be documented. Some of the bells cast at Tayopa #1 later turned up in a Franciscan mission at Baroyeca, which also had a mining history but with Franciscans as the original discoverers.
Good luck and good hunting Joe and everyone, I hope you find the treasures that you seek. Even the
legendary ones.
Oroblanco
Thanks for the laughs on that one, you don't know how ironic that came across. 
Your question was:
In your last reply, the name of the padre seems to be an important element.
