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JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

Thanks Roy,

I would still like to know where Crow found his articles. That was a very good job of Internet research on your part. I could find nothing.

On the other hand, there is this:

"it is conjectured that the Jesuits at Rio, hearing of this, hid the treasures just discovered."

That sounds very much like.....maybe yes, maybe no.

Take care,

Joe
 

CJ,

Except for the nasty little fact of that nasty little document - the receipt of Father Anton Desarte, Superior of the Jesuit College at Rio for 20 million gold dollars to be paid by him as a tribute to King John V of Portugal.

B
 

Hey Gang,
I was just wondering if there were any Jesuits doing the same ( you know not really but really digging for gold and stuff ) in the Southern California area ??? Specifically around the I-5 N near Gorman.... I have hear some stories, but I was wondering if anyone can name names like what padre's were working there ?? and when ??? etc....

Thx
PLL
 

Beth,

It is well known that the Society of Jesus created tribute in South America, designed to leave the territories in Jesuit control. The mention of a "receipt" leaves out who the receipt is for, and a date it was received.

As I have mentioned before, I am less interested in Jesuit history for South America, India, the Philippines, China and the Congo, than I am in Mexico.

So far the only mention of this story that can be found on the Internet, as far as I know, is what Roy found. That seems to be the beginning and the end of the story. It would be interesting to hear what became of the legal wrangling. That's a lot of "moola" to disappear off the radar of world history.

I am reluctant to take this story to the bank......so to speak. Don't you want to see a little more before jumping to any conclusions? All of the treasure mentioned, does not mention that it was ever in Jesuit hands. Who authenticated the document? Has it been altered?

Take care,

Joe
 

Hello Cactus Jumper

You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink!

I have really enjoying lurking in the back ground reading the interesting posts and learning so much. But I cannot think some of the details you all have been haggling over is some what side tracking the issue.

Just putting my two cents worth in: I think the answer in this debate lies somewhere in between. I do not think the Jesuits except for a few exceptions were in general ever physically mining themselves or owning mines.

However it is possible they were acquiring gold through services to the mines as supplies, food, supply of labor and possibly smelting and extraction services. They certainly hoarded gold as gold was a sure currency in any ones terms. You can see that in their churches and the wealth they lavished on them.

In Brazil the Jesuits had a labor force of over 300000 natives making money for them over numerous years. The Jesuits were so good at business that they operated like a company and were in some respects the one of first globalized multinational companies. The royalty of many countries became ever fearful of them, because they say how quickly how wealthy and powerful they had become.

There is an article in 1767: That might be of interest to all sides of the debate.
The Gentleman's and London magazine: or monthly chronologer, 1741-1794 pages 529,530,531 in regards the Jesuits wealth in Brazil at least.

Joe a good researcher never gives away his professional secrets ;D

But seriously: Google books is great help

The NZ newspaper article: PAPERS PAST

The west Australian Newspaper story: NLA NATIONAL LIBRARY OF AUSTRALIA

The 2 San Antonio daily light newspaper stories: Newspaperarchive.com

Joe another thing you should understand is Rio was involved in a civil war unrest during 1893. If you want to find the truth of this matter then I suggest you contact the Historical archives of Rio on this matter and the national library in Paris that may also be of help.

I have been kind enough to give you some leads but I am not here to research for you, Now please excuse me as I am off on my yacht to Tahiti paid for from something so called experts tell me doesn't exist! :wink:

Regards Crow
 

CJ,

I'm always interested in hearing more history.

However, it is not just a matter of the "note", but everything that was found in that basement - it was $70,000,000 worth of stuff, besides the papers. And, the legal issue was who did it belong to - because it was the government that had the place torn up, the question, legally, is asked, who does it belong to - the Republic, the King of Portugal, The Jesuits or the contractors digging it up.

Anyone can readily see why the Republic or the King would want to lay claim to a "found" treasure - heck, we see it here in the US all the time, like with the Atocha. (the state wanted it), the original owners wanted it (the Atocha was a Spanish galleon), or the guys digging it up.

We can pretty well match that to Mel Fisher's experience. Should Florida get it, should the Spanish get it, or should Mel Fisher get it.
Match that to, should the Republic or King get it, should the Jesuits get it (it was theirs) or should the diggers get it. It's no leap in theory or fact, since, that was one of the main legal questions.

I do, however, have a little trouble with someone dismissing 500 words for the want of one. In a civil court, the decision is made on the "more likely than not" theory. It is much more likely, than not, that they would have considered the Jesuits if it wasn't theirs in the first place.

I mean, think it through - it would be like if I filed a claim against Mel Fisher that part of the treasure was mine - I had nothing to do with it, so, you wouldn't consider me. they'd only consider me if I actually had a hand in it.

B
 

Beth,

Sorry, I don't buy this story as it is being spun. King John V was king from 1706 to 1750 when he died. The Jesuits were expelled from Brazil in 1759.

Before I swallow it hook, line and sinker, I would like to know who they accepted the gold from and the date of the transaction. I don't believe for one minute they wrote a receipt for that much, without crossing all the T's and dotting all the I's.

Just how much room does 70,000,000 Spanish gold dollars take up? How much in American dollars would they have been worth in that era? I realize the article supports what you would like to believe anyway, but wouldn't you like just a bit more evidence to flesh out your argument?.....Like where did the gold dollars come from, the Vatican?

What say we look into that law firm case?????

Take care,

Joe
 

Cactusjumper wrote
Beth,

Sorry, I don't buy this story as it is being spun. King John V was king from 1706 to 1750 when he died. The Jesuits were expelled from Brazil in 1759.

Before I swallow it hook, line and sinker, I would like to know who they accepted the gold from and the date of the transaction. I don't believe for one minute they wrote a receipt for that much, without crossing all the T's and dotting all the I's.

Just how much room does 70,000,000 Spanish gold dollars take up? How much in American dollars would they have been worth in that era? I realize the article supports what you would like to believe anyway, but wouldn't you like just a bit more evidence to flesh out your argument?.....Like where did the gold dollars come from, the Vatican?

What say we look into that law firm case?
Click to expand...

Swallow it "hook line and sinker"? Sheesh Joe. The article states how many containers were involved. The legal case while interesting, could have been a foregone conclusion - under Brazilian law, when a treasure is found, if someone can show ownership it is no longer considered treasure and goes to that claimant. If the Jesuits pressed their case, and showed it was in fact theirs, the crown of Portugal could then legally lay claim to it as all Jesuit properties were seized by the Portuguese crown 1760. The Republic government, as direct "heirs" to all Portuguese crown properties in Brazil, then could step in and take it all. So the finders would get very little for their efforts.

Relevant Brazilian law (in English)
Of Treasure.
Art. 607. If any one should casually find on the land of another, an ancient deposit of money or precious things, buried or hidden, of the owner of which there is no mem- ory, it shall be divided equally between the owner of the land and the finder {inventor).

Art. 608. If the person who found it is the owner of the land, any employee of his sent to make the search, or a third person not authorized by the owner of the estate, the treasure shall belong entirely to the latter.

Art. 609. If it is found on foral land {terrene aforado)^ it shall be divided equally between the finder and the emphyteuta, or shall belong to him entirely if he is the finder.

Art. 610. If anyone shows that the deposit found be- longs to him, it shall cease to be considered as treasure.

<Assuming the Jesuits, Crown or Govt showed a claim of ownership and the treasure is no longer considered treasure, this portion applies>

Of Finds (Invengao),
Art. 603. Whoever finds the lost thing of another, must restore it to the owner or legitimate possessor. Single Paragraph. Not knowing him, the finder (inv en- tor) shall try to discover him, and if he does not appear, shall deliver the object found to the competent authority of the place.

Art. 604. He who restores the things found, in the terms of the preceding Article, shall have the right to a reward (recompensa) and to indemnization for the expenses which he has made for the preservation and transportation of the thing, if the owner does not prefer to abandon it. Art.

605. The finder responds for the damages caused to the proprietor or legitimate possessor, when he has acted with deceit (dole).

Art. 606. If, after six months from the notice (aviso) to the authority, no one presents himself who shows owner- ship (dominio) of the thing, it shall be sold at public auc- tion, and after deducting the expenses and the reward of the finder (Art. 604), the remainder shall belong to the State or to the Federal District, if the lost object was found (se depar&ii) within their respective jurisdiction,
Click to expand...

This is taken from the Civil Code of Brazil, law 3701 which dates to 1916 but as far as I could determine these relevant sections are practically identical with those of earlier laws.

***Side note here for our readers, if you are considering going after treasure in a foreign country, do your homework on their laws concerning treasures! Some countries simply seize everything you find, which makes the whole exercise rather pointless for the treasure hunter.***
Oroblanco
 

Don Jose,

I started to do that this afternoon, but people with a greater need came in.

I will make the attempt.

Take care,

Joe
 

Joe, as an Officer, only three statements are allowed,

Yes Sir
No Sir
No excuse Sir

Since I had to live by that, I expect my peers to do the same ! he he he

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

Cactusj, Retena was a general stationed in Sonora, worked with Kino on occasion to help quell Indian upriseings.
 

GD,

"Retena was a general stationed in Sonora, worked with Kino on occasion to help quell Indian upriseings."

Thank you. I knew who General Retana was, but can't remember every player in Mexico's history.
The one instance I do remember when he was going to come and help Father Kino with Indians, turned out to be a false alarm, which Father Kino knew from the start. He and the General exchanged a few letters as I remember.

Beyond that one occasion, I don't recall them ever coming in contact with each other. I imagine it must have happened, but don't think so.

Thanks again,

Joe
 

It's a funny thing.

As I have said before, I like to go to the horse's mouth so to speak as often as possible. I have been corresponding with two Professors of History, who's specialties are Jesuits in Mexico (one teaches modern history and one teaches late 1500s and early 1600s). Neither one of them seems to have a problem with Jesuit involvement in mining, although they both agree with my theory about them doing it through Coadjutors (Lay Brothers).

An even funnier thing is that they are both Jesuit Priests. One is at Loyola Marymount and the other is at Georgetown University. When I asked them if they knew of any reason the Order would want to deny mining activity in the 1600s today, this was my reply:

Dear Mike....I can't think of any reason they would deny it
later...unless it was part and parcel of a larger picture, viz., to deny
any "commercial" activity, as defense against enemies who used that
against them.
Click to expand...

HHMMMMM. Two Jesuit Priests. Both of them PhDs. Both of them teaching in two of the most prestigious Jesuit Universities, and neither of them have a problem with Jesuit involvement in mining activities.

Guess with that, I might just go up the ladder another rung.

Best-Mike
 

(unless it was part and parcel of a larger picture, viz., to deny
any "commercial" activity, as defense against enemies who used that
against them) :thumbsup:

Interesting reply for sure, I always wondered if the denials may have anything to do with such things like Enslaving the natives to work and offing those that didnt bow down and do as told, Making the church bloody rich "Pun Intended" then possibly worried about modern day relatives wanting a little pay back in the form of good ol currency from the main man himself???? Just a thought.
 

Hey TP,

I don't think the Jesuits ever murdered anybody who refused to work for them. If you read the entire story about how natives felt they would soon die after revealing the locations of silver or gold veins, did not have so much to do with the Jesuit Fathers but with their superstitions.

They believed that their Gods would kill them for revealing those locations out of revenge for giving away tribal secrets.

I understand the response to mean what is common knowledge:

Many accusations were made against the Jesuits by the Spanish who would use anything they could to get the Jesuits in hot water. Jesuit Mining was strictly verboten, and if the Spanish Civilians could use that to get them in trouble they would.

Best-Mike
 

Thats it exactly
By admitting owning and or working mines..... they may have to defend themselves in a modern day court against accusations that may or may not be true, Whats the odds of every single Jesuit being squeaky clean :dontknow: Wonder how many of our native brothers would want the gold back that was dug out of mother earth in the name of some other mans king.

Tim
 

T.Parker said:
Thats it exactly
By admitting owning and or working mines..... they may have to defend themselves in a modern day court against accusations that may or may not be true, Whats the odds of every single Jesuit being squeaky clean :dontknow: Wonder how many of our native brothers would want the gold back that was dug out of mother earth in the name of some other mans king.

Tim
Click to expand...

This is why I have often wonder why Spain ALWAYS has a claim for sunken treasure..... Doesn't it REALLY belong to the country they STOLE it from ???? Weather it was taken by Jesuits or Conquistadors....it still was on their land...

PLL
 

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