JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good evening CJ, joe my friend: You posted -->

The natives will tell you what they think you want to hear......
~~~~~~~~~~~
So true, I am infinitely more aware of this than you. I have learned to circumvent this.
*****************************************************************
You posted -->this late date, who's to say what they were.
~~~~~~~~~~~

Not so my friend, a simple dig will confirm them, however the time is not here yet.
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You posted --> Your buildings could very well be mining companies work or even Franciscans......
~~~~~~~~~~~

The possibility of Franciscans working with the Jesuits at Tayopa is possible but highly doubtful for many reasons. This will be clarified when the main deposit is opened since the data shows that they stored many documents and maps in there.

Surface debris shows no possibility of being used in a mining operation. They were places of habitation, a Capilla and a large building. A church is not reasonable, since the population was never large enough to warrant one..

All processing was done at the Paramo and down below at the junction of the two arroyos where the Laborer's village was.
***************************************************************
You also posted --> If the Jesuits have been lying all these years, I want to know the truth.
~~~~~~~~~~
I have never even hinted that the Jesuits were lying, but they were the masters of double innuendos, half truths, misleading data, etc. So go from there.

As for checking my posts and documents carefully, I am curious as to why no one called me on the distances to the mines, especially the last section.

You must not be reading very carefully or thinking.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

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[Oroblanco]

Don Jose' wrote

I am curious as to why no one called me on the distances to the mines, especially the last section.

You must not be reading very carefully or thinking.

Speaking only for myself, I did see your listed distances in meters and varas, but can neither prove nor disprove a single number. The math does not seem to work, so how were the meters determined? By direct measurements? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

PS Froggy, would you care to point out some fiction in our posts? Thank you also in advance.

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"Muchas gracias mi compadre! It was a "labor of love" and quite a struggle to try to read Spanish books. Sure wish I could read Espanol easily!"

Since you did go to through the struggle, why didn't you post what you read in English? I believe most of the members here are English speaking.......and reading folks. Why not post it in Yiddish, that makes just as much sense.

Roy, I'm glad you and Don Jose are patting your back, but I found that to be one of the poorest posts I have ever seen from you.

"Cactusjumper states he has seen nothing to tie the Jesuits to Tayopa; this is to dismiss the inventory documents found by Henry Flipper, which dovetail surprisingly well with other historical sources. This is not the only document ever found to support the existence of Tayopa, Teopa, Teopari or Tiyopah as it has been variously spelled over the centuries. Opata Indians were still living in the area in the 1730's and it is from Opatas that at least one document (in private ownership) was found. The area lay today within Chihuahua state, but in the 1600's it was considered a part of Sonora.

Oh and Joe - did you notice, while taking note that miners, Indians etc were supporting the actions of de Retana, that this same de Retana left his personal estate to...(drum roll for drama) ...the Jesuits. He also stated that he was a bachelor and childless. Hmm."

I'm glad you find that fact worth a "drum roll" but having read the history of the Jesuit's in Mexico, I don't find it unusuall or especially noteworthy. In other words, it was fairly common. Of course I noticed it.

I still admire and respect you, my friend, but I expect better from you. On the other hand, I'm sure you expect better from me.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Here is a free online translator
http://www.google.com/language_tools?hl=en]
Have fun!

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Oro, I believe that I have sent you a stylized map of the main deposit already. This makes the materiel stored in the tunnel with the metal door on the northen side pocket change.

This materiel comes from the later production of the Tayopa field in the late 1700's, just prior to the expulsion. This production is independent from Tayopa's

Tayopa itself, probably was never worked after the Indian uprising. Some of the surrounding mines may have been, but Tayopa was too well hidden. I will clarify this when we finally have our long over due coffee session.

The tunnel materiel is what is described in that popular document. This is what that failed trip was after, and cost me my friend..

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Here is Bancroft's map of the region we are talking about in the 1600's, if this works

If you look carefully you will find TEOPARI

Don Jose' I will check my EM's to see if I have that map you sent. thank you!
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

Yes I found them amigo <maps> - I am working on my new PC here and much is on my old one so it takes me a bit longer, don't have much on this new model yet. Still working on a way to get the files off the old PC, as its CD drive is dead and it has no other type of external drive, may have to network it.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

[Here is a free online translator
http://www.google.com/language_tools?hl=en]
Have fun! ]

Many thanks for the link. I have used them many times in the past. Even have a little portable one here at home.

If you didn't feel the information was important enough to give us the gist in English, I don't feel it's important enough for me to work my way through all that stuff one word at a time. My loss, I'm sure.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

K oro. since I knew where the capilla was, and it's front door I could use that as a base for measuring, in fact, most documents do just that.

When I found los Remedios, I tried back measuring to the door, it did not fit the document. It was a heck of a lot further than 365 varas.

Futher checking, I found that they were in the process of changing from codos (1/2 vara approx.) to varas, slightly longer than a meter. So assuming that the Jesuits were using their normal technique, and were actually using codos, I divided the distances in stated varas by 2 to equal the new varas. It still didn't match, obviously..

Knowing what the distance from los Remedios to the Capilla door should be, I then calculated that a simple multiplication of the distance in the new varas by 10 fit it .

Using the same technique, all of the other mines fell in the ball park.

Further developments confirmed my findings.

Now ladies & Gentlemen, reading from the lower box on the right side, explain how so many mines could be so close to each other?

Don Jose de La mancha

p.s they were also famous for writing upside down, mirror image posts..

 

[Oroblanco]

My time, while not terribly valuable, is limited as per how much time I may spend fooling with the computer and internet. If I find time this evening or sometime soon, I will be happy to translate and post the passages which are now in Spanish. Even with out any translation, can you at least pick out the names and dates? They were the most important points I was trying to make, sorry if I didn't make that clear.

Don Jose de la Mancha wrote

Now ladies & Gentlemen, reading from the lower box on the right side, explain how so many mines could be so close to each other?

I know, I know - call on me <I will allow time for others to reply, as I have already used many words here.>
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

K oro my friend, I will wait, I assume that Beth figured it out for you?? snicker

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[pegleglooker]

Yes I found them amigo <maps> - I am working on my new PC here and much is on my old one so it takes me a bit longer, don't have much on this new model yet. Still working on a way to get the files off the old PC, as its CD drive is dead and it has no other type of external drive, may have to network it.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

Hello Oro,
Two things can help with this, one ( cheap ) way is to simply email yourself on the old computer and then open it on the new computer. Or simply get a data memory stick and transfer the info from one to the other. Easy peasy....

PLL

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

I'm not crazy about trying to translate "broken Spanish", but, here is my effort:

News of the founding of any places taken from the learned geographer Don Manuel Orozco, in his Geography of Mexico, named Our Lady of the Assumption San Lorenzo 1648, Guepaca Arizpe 1639, Bacoaiz Bacoatzi Bacochi Chinipas 1660, San Jose 1648, Our Lady Remedies Beramitzi the 1639, San Ignacio namitzi Ba Soniquipa 1646, Purisima de 1639, Guasavas Babicori Babiacora Babicora 1645, Oputa 1645, Bacadeguatzi 1645, Nacori 1645, Bacerac 1645, Bavispe 1645, Oposura 1644, Cumpas 1644, Cuquiaratzi 1653, Cuchuta 1653, Teuricatzi 1G53, Tepache 1678, Yecori 1673, Guatzinera 1645

In a compilation of the geography of Sonora By José María Pérez Hernández MEXICO TIP OF TRADE A SON LABA MABIANO expensive CORDOBANES NUMBER 8 1872 pp139
In 1590, by Philip II, at the request of San Francisco de Borja General of the Order of the Society of Jesus, the order was given to his regular spiritual conquest of the provinces of Sonora and Sinaloa, and although it said it would not be burdensome to the royal treasury, the result was that between the missionaries and settlers, they burned through eight million pesos from 1591 to 1596, and that it was something that was reached in conquest, and was due to the help of Sebastian Vizcaino who retired after much of his strength left him.

Quote: In 1638 the regular Jesuits took charge again of civil and religious education of the natives being named the Rev. Fr Bartholomew Castano which, aided by his companions, founded the pueblos and missions we at Nacozari, Bivispe Populo Ona Guevavi Arivechi Caborca, Batuco, Cucurpe, Comuripa, Alamos, Zoari, Mobas, Ures, Babiacora, Cocospera, Oposura and others.

Obviously, there are a couple of words/names that I do not know. Those I have left exactly as they were said.

B

Pegleglooker,

I think we are going to get the data memory stick. Its a "nice to have" anyway, and I also have a dead computer with many items on it also that I NEED to retrieve.

 

[Oroblanco]

Don Jose' - I have a question for you; was Teopari "wiped out" in the Baja Pima rebellion of 1740? This would "match" the story of the Opata still living at the ranch 'Tayopa' in possession of a Tayopa document, who said that Pimas wiped out the town and his ancestors retaliated, and that was how it was recovered from them and passed on to him. I can't seem to find a map for around 1750 which still shows Teopari. Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[lamar]

K oro. since I knew where the capilla was, and it's front door I could use that as a base for measuring, in fact, most documents do just that.

When I found los Remedios, I tried back measuring to the door, it did not fit the document. It was a heck of a lot further than 365 varas.

Futher checking, I found that they were in the process of changing from codos (1/2 vara approx.) to varas, slightly longer than a meter. So assuming that the Jesuits were using their normal technique, and were actually using codos, I divided the distances in stated varas by 2 to equal the new varas. It still didn't match, obviously..

Knowing what the distance from los Remedios to the Capilla door should be, I then calculated that a simple multiplication of the distance in the new varas by 10 fit it .

Using the same technique, all of the other mines fell in the ball park.

Further developments confirmed my findings.

Now ladies & Gentlemen, reading from the lower box on the right side, explain how so many mines could be so close to each other?

Don Jose de La mancha

p.s they were also famous for writing upside down, mirror image posts..

Dear Real de Tayopa;
Trying to calculate varas, or even codos for that matter, is nearly impossible without an accurate point of reference, such as the standard unit of measurement (generally an iron rod or bar cemented into a wall in the plaza of the local provenical seat somewhere) by which to reference from. Even calculating the distance between known points helps although it is highly inaccurate also.

The problem with the old measurement system is that it was different from region to region. In other words, a vara was whatever the local government decided it should be. Also, distances were calculated in straight lines without regard to the actual distance travelled via the roadways. In other words they did not take into account the curves and other terrain features which have to be avoided.

I first discovered this discrepency many moons ago when I walked part of the Santiago de Compostela (St. James the Greater pilgramage) pilgramage trail as part of the procession. As we travelled merrily along I would stop and inspect all the medieval mile posts along the way. As we got closer to our destination I noticed that the distance was INCREASING instead of DECREASING!

This confused me to no end until someone informed me that we had entered a different county and that the unit of measurement in that particular county was somewhat less than the unit of measurement in the prior county, therefore the distance measurement increased, but the actual distance remained the same, and to just ignore the medieval signposts and instead rely on the newfangled kilometer ones.

I am not certain, but I think that the units of measurements also changed at different times in the New World colonies as well, although I don't recall this occurring in Spain. It may have happened but I do not know of any instances where it did, however I do seem to recall that the measurement system was *overhauled* in the New World colonies at different times in order to try and standardize the units of measurement throughout all the Spanish colonies.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

Teopare is around 60 miles slightly northeast of what is today called Tayopa. The first baptisms began in 1676 and in 1677 the first resident priest, Domingo Miguel was installed there. He left in 1680 and took up residence in Sahuaripa. At that point, Teopare became a visita of Sahuaripa. It went back and forth between being a visita and a cabecera. The last change in its status came about when in 1748 an order came depopulating Natora.

The last Jesuit mention of Teopare came in a report from visitador Lizasoain after he travelled through the area in 1761. The most impressive thing about Teopare, for him, was the terrible trail from Sahuaripa. After the expulsion Teopare fell under the jurisdiction of the
Jaliscans.

There are the ruins, around three or four feet high, of a small church located on Teopare Ranch. It faces south. It is located on the Rio Teopare. The priest who built this church was Jose Escalona. He left in 1743 and there was no priest serving again until Bartolome Saenz came in 1748, and stayed only a very short time.

Would this be the same as the Teopari you were asking about?

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Yes Cactusjumper that is the Teopari or Tyopari I am referring to, and yes I know it was founded in 1676, by the same people (descendants of survivors that is) of the original Tayopa. The 'original' was founded in 1600, can't recall the name of the padre however.
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

Lamar, I have a couple of questions for you;

Would you say that Father Tomar de Guadalajara SJ ever existed?

Would you say that Father de Guadalajara ever visited Teopari?

Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Thanks Roy.

I was just checking. Appreciate the added details.

You wouldn't be asking Lamar about Tommy "The Bull" Guadalajara, from San Jose......would you? He was a mighty bad hombre.

Just kidding.......Pradeau in "Expulsion", says that Teopare was founded in 1678 by Juan Ortiz Zapata, the visitador, and Tomas Guadalajara. If you go to the Alegre, Historia, I believe it is mentioned that Tomas came to the Tarahumara missions in 1675. He died in 1722. So yes, he did exist, and yes he was at Teopare.

I know you didn't ask me, but......

Take care,

Joe

 

[lamar]

Lamar, I have a couple of questions for you;

Would you say that Father Tomar de Guadalajara SJ ever existed?

Would you say that Father de Guadalajara ever visited Teopari?

Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

Dear oroblanco;
I am going to refrain from answering questions and queries for the time being as I do not wish to get myself involved in accusations of whether or not I've called some a liar or whether I mention the person in question was a legitmate offspring etc.

Encounters of those types are very counter-productive and they serve absolutely no useful purpose that I am aware, therefore, in order to thwart these types of discussions I will gracefully remain silent on the issues at hand.

I will make allowances and answer all enquiries from certain forum members such as Cactusjumper, as I understand that these members do not focus on petty, irrelevant facts and instead *eat the meat instead of trying to gnaw on the bones*. In light of these recent exchanges, I shall respectfully remain respectfully silent.
Your friend;
LAMAR