JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[cactusjumper]

Beth,

"If you want to find some corroborating information, immerse yourself in the works of Henry O. Flipper.

I don't want to do ALL the work."

Why would you imagine that I haven't? Henry Ossian Flipper died on the morning of May 3, 1940. Earlier this evening I was rereading the last letter he wrote before his death. It was written to Dr. Thomas Jefferson Flanagan on April 16, 1940 from Atlanta, Georgia. It was, mostly, about "A little journey into good English!" Flipper was a prolific letter writer.

I did not confine myself to a copy of J. Frank Dobie's "Apache Gold & Yaqui Silver", which I have a nice signed first edition of, but did manage to branch out a little beyond the treasure hunting genre. I was especially interested in his time with Pancho Villa, who happens to be another interest of mine.

It's been, what I would call, cold here. Don't believe I would last a week where you are.

Take care,

Joe

 

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[gollum]

My Friend, Mike,

None of us are perfect, but Lamar, IMHO, (education wise) seems to be well above average. In those cases, being right probably happens more often than being wrong. I can see where that would become a comfortable place to be, and a hard place to escape.

Lamar seems to have a slightly egocentric outlook on the world. I have come to accept that humility will not be forthcoming from such a person, despite his professed calling which I have no reason to doubt.

Without Lamar questioning our conclusions, we would all be reduced to a head nodding mutual admiration society. In the process of debating the "facts", we all learn a great deal more about our topics. For instance, we all now know there is a place in Spain called Retana. Even though I had read about General Retana in Mexico, I will never forget that fact again.

What I am trying to say, is that I believe we all get something positive from each other, which far outweighs the negative.

Now about Father Retana......

Take care,

Joe

Hey Joe,

At one point in time, I would have wholeheartedly agreed with you regarding Lamar. We always had spirited back-and-forths. Unlike SWR, his arguments usually added something substantial to any debate. All you have to do is go back a couple of months and you will see that I defended Lamar against several people who attempted to defame him.

I just got sick of his being arrogant and dismissive. His lack of humility in being able to admit when wrong. His lack of intellectual integrity by posting (on some occasions) only the parts of quotes that supported his arguments leaving out those that negated them.

It seems almost that Lamar is more than one person. Sort of the opposite of some individuals on the forums who maintain several identities. At one point, we would be getting along fine as usual, then BANG! Out comes mister arrogant dismissive. Could also be Schizophrenic or a medium for departed Jesuits! HAHAHA

I have a very good command of the English Language, and better than average typing skills. I don't need the practice of restating facts and quotes over and over, again and again.

Best-Mike

 

[Springfield]

... I just got sick of his being arrogant and dismissive. His lack of humility in being able to admit when wrong. His lack of intellectual integrity by posting (on some occasions) only the parts of quotes that supported his arguments leaving out those that negated them. ...

Mike, fanatical partisans (zealots) are not conditioned using a framework of intellectual integrity. He's not a bad person, he's just inflexible - kind of like in a hypnotic state. As Joe suggested - try to use his responses to broaden your perspective. Keep your own focus intact and be willing to modify your knowledge as you progress.

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike and Springfield,

Both of your points are valid, for me, but I tend to lean towards Springfield's outlook a bit more. I have learned a ton of history from Lamar, some of it as a direct result of running down his "facts". There are times when he has been totally wrong, but proving that has brought new facts surrounding the truth. I am reminded of "Peralta's mining in Arizona".

Without his unique (sometimes maddening) demeanor, I would be less inspired to look for that historical, factual truth. In the final analysis, I can live with Lamar's personality and, in fact, welcome it. After this many years, a little inspiration can't hurt.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Beth,

"....immerse yourself in the works of Henry O. Flipper".

Could you give me some suggestions as to which of Flipper's "works" I should be examining? Serious question, as I have no idea what I may have missed.

Thanks in advance,

Joe

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

CJ,

I assumed nothing about what you have read - it is just apparent that, if you had read Henry O. Flipper (in relation to the Jesuits and treasure), that you would have indeed read about Retana, since it is in part of his works. Flipper wrote about many things - starting of course with his own experiences being black in the armed services, during those particular years. (there is alot about that).

Flipper was a very ardent Tayopa seeker - and had lots of writings (of others), including a complete copy of the letter that talked about Retana and the bells and other items.

The year was, I believe, 1646 - February - when the government changed and they were taking inventory, and he discovered a Jesuit letter that had been written. This just happens to be the EXACT same time that the Jesuits were founding new missions in Sonora - Arizpe, for one.

Remember, Flipper was not just a black soldier, he was also a surveyor, historian and Spanish legal expert (not to mention what I have already mentioned).

That document that Flipper found, matched a document that a priest (Geronimo de Canal) was holding in another city.

B

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

I see.......

What we have now, is a legendary mine, a legendary mission and a legendary Jesuit Priest.

I am beginning to understand.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Don Jose,

I see.......

What we have now, is a legendary mine, a legendary mission and a legendary Jesuit Priest.

I am beginning to understand.

Take care,

Joe

Yes we see too, quite a turn of the phrase there Joe, sure to "egg" the proponents on to expend their time and energy just to show you "legendary" does not mean "fictional". I am tempted to ask, just how much documentary records do you think still exist from the 1640's frontier Sonora much less 1603, but it would serve no purpose.

Good luck and good hunting Joe and everyone, I hope you find the treasures that you seek, unless of course you don't seek treasures.
Oroblanco

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

CJ,

If you mean "legendary" as in a "story", then no.

If you mean "legendary" as in a fact that is well-documented and known, then yes.

Have you heard of the international law firm Arnold & Porter? They are well known, and they were part of Henry Ossian Flipper's posthumous
Presidential Pardon trial. (which they won).

Well, they have a bio on Henry O. Flipper (and lots of other information), including his quest for Tayopa.

Flipper's books are still available, also, and I believe that the particular one we are talking about is, also.

Here is an excerpt from the international law office's history of Henry O. Flipper:

In 1900, Lt. Flipper returned to private practice until 1919, when he was 63 years old. Among his notable accomplishments were his researches into the location of the fabled "Lost Tayopa" Spanish gold mine of the Sierra Madre in Mexico. Lt. Flipper described his post-West Point life in another book that remains in print today, The Black Frontiersman, written in 1916.

Maybe J. Frank Dobie knew at least something of what he was talking about.


B

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,
Lamar wrote

After the expulsion, things got sort of hairy and lots of documents were lost and eventually perished through the passage of time.

Haven't I said this as have several others? We can not expect to find loads of documentary evidence, for a vast amount has been lost or destroyed. Not finding such documents does not mean that they did not at one time exist, as Henry O Flipper found some and held in his own hands - can we locate those documents he found today? I doubt it. That does not make them false or some kind of hoax. Of course the lack of 'incriminating' documents (that is to ignore those found by Flipper) also serves to buttress the apologists claim that no Jesuits ever had any mines nor any treasures.

As Tayopa would count as a "plural" in that it is a rather large group of mines in a relatively small area, and the period of the original Tayopa dates we have from Flipper's inventory of 1646, it is helpful to support the reality if we can show that there were indeed Jesuits in the region in that period and in the early 1600's, as the other date on his inventory is 1603.

The Spanish crown granted permission for the Jesuits to enter ('entrada') the northwestern frontier which includes the area of Tayopa in 1587, and the Jesuits had in fact entered the area by 1591, with military escorts. According to Jesuit sources, they had converted 40,000 Yaquis out of an estimated population of 100,000 by 1606. Can we list the names of those intrepid Jesuit missionarios, or their lay brothers?

The Jesuits ran into the very same kinds of problems in the mid-1600's as later we find the case to be in Pimeria Alta in the 1760s - they complained about Spanish abusing the Indians, and the Spanish colonists complaining about Jesuits setting themselves up as a virtual state within a state, rulers of the Yaquis, using the Indians as slaves forcing them to work without pay etc. The Spanish authorities ruled that an Indian working in the mines must be paid 2.5 Reales per day and the Jesuits had to allow their Yaquis to leave the missions if they wished to work in the mines.

What sets Tayopa apart from some of the stories of Jesuit mines is that one of our members here has found it, now owns it and can show it to you. His site fits the description of the ORIGINAL Tayopa of the 1600's in every detail except one. We have garbled info concerning dates, names etc because there are at least THREE different mines named Tayopa which were active and operated at different times, though the other two are of later date. (The Dios Padre being one of the two, I know the owner and discoverer of it as well, and he also owns a cast silver bell he found there with the name Tayopa cast into it, but with a 1700's date.) It is a bit illogical to describe Tayopa as if it were a fictional myth when you can go and see it, stand in the place where the mission stood or even peer into the ancient mines.

Oh and just to settle the question whether there were indeed de Retanas in colonial Mexico,

GONZÁLEZ DE RETANA Juan Francisco 84 JN OVENA en obsequio de la prodigiosa y amabilissima Virgen Abadesa Sta Gertrudis la Magna Del esclarecido orden de San Benito Dispuesta por el Br D Juan Fran cisco González de Retana Y la dedica á sus devotos Reimpressa en México en la Imprenta de la Bibliotheca Mexicana junto á las Reverendas Madres Capuchinas Año de 1762 lóvo port con grab en la vta y II hojs sn con la obra

<from Bibliografía mexicana del siglo XVIII. By Nicolás León, pp 293>

Good luck and good hunting amigos I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

More evidence of the name de Retana as important in colonial Mexico;

FERNÁNDEZ DE RETANA, JUAN (1652-1708). Juan Fernández de Retana, Spanish military commander on the frontier of northern New Spain and son of Juan Fernández de Retana and María Martínez de Mendivil, was born in the village of Nanclares de Gamboa in the province of Alava in northern Spain, where he was baptized on February 27, 1652. His parents were poor Basque pastoralists who apparently did not have much of an estate. Fernández married María Ruiz Lucuriaga in Nanclares in 1670. According to baptismal registers there, the couple had two sons and four daughters between 1672 and 1683, which would have been unremarkable if Fernández had not migrated to the viceroyalty of New Spain sometime before May 1676, when his signature appears in Mexico City records. Between 1676 and 1684 he was a merchant-freighter hauling goods between Mexico City and the northern silver-mining communities of Zacatecas and Parral. In New Spain he always claimed he was single and had no family, and there is no record of his returning to Spain before his wife's death in 1684.

By 1678 Fernández was living in Parral, the most important mining center in the province of Nueva Vizcaya and the unofficial residence of the governors of Nueva Vizcaya in the seventeenth century. He had established ties with the merchant-freighting Urrutia family of Mexico City, who loaned him money to go into freighting himself. Fernández also engaged in mining and became an influential citizen, holding the positions of diputado de minería (mining deputy) and alcalde mayor (chief executive officer) of Parral. By 1681 he was being addressed as capitán and was apparently protecting supply trains as well. Three years later the merchants' guild of Parral petitioned the governor of Nueva Vizcaya to make the title official and appoint Fernández a regular military officer in charge of a squad of soldiers escorting wagon trains on the road between Parral and the mining center of Cuencamé to the southeast. Governor José de Neyra y ana Quiroga did so in 1684, thus paving the way for Fernández's appointment as captain of the new presidio of San Francisco de Conchos in 1685. Before that appointment Fernández campaigned against the Conchos and Julime Indians in 1684.

<More online at http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/FF/ffe25.html>

It is interesting that this particular de Retana was one of those responsible for crushing the Indian revolts, in which duty he was charged with criminal conduct, and that the Jesuits came forward in his defense and he was absolved. Pure coincidence I suppose our apologists would say.
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Cactus you posted -->

What we have now, is a legendary mine, a legendary mission and a legendary Jesuit Priest.
~~~~~~~~~~
Sorry Cactus, I am not Ordained, just possibly reincarnated.

(apol. for the bad joke, but I couldn't resist)

As for the Tayopa series, Dios Padres was Tayopa #2, it is west of Yecora. # 1 was at Guaynopa, and the Legendary Tayopa was #3. I have this.

Besides these, there are several other tayopa mines that came after, and are still in existence . Sooo without the backup data, where does one begin?

I have that data, plus the Ace in the deck. It has never been posted, or talked about, nor will it be. No more than 5 persons know about it. For confidential reasons, three cannot say anything. so effectively only my wife and I know it in all of it's details.

In the future Oro & Beth may make 4, if they decide so, but there it stops. It will never be mentioned again.

This is why I can snicker at swr and the others, I 'know' where it is.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

I don't doubt that you have discovered a mine, and it is possibly Tayopa, but I doubt the history that is being told here. I have seen nothing that shows there was a Jesuit mission or that the Jesuits worked your mine.

It's just my opinion, so I could be wrong.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Good morning Roy,

"It is interesting that this particular de Retana was one of those responsible for crushing the Indian revolts, in which duty he was charged with criminal conduct, and that the Jesuits came forward in his defense and he was absolved. Pure coincidence I suppose our apologists would say."

It's also interesting that you only mention the Jesuit's, when others also came foward in the man's defense.

"Finally, after mustering support from fellow military commanders, Jesuit missionaries, loyal Tarahumara leaders, and influential miners, Fernandez was absolved of the charges against him by King Felipe V in 1704."

It becomes obvious that the influential miners (owners) and some Tarahumara came down on the side of de Retana, as well as the Jesuits. From the tenor of most of the anti-Jesuit posts here, those two groups would not be expected to join hands with the Jesuits.

Just another observation on the same evidence.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning Joe: First I am claiming a certain bit of unearned immunity since I have data which you cannot be made privy to at this time.. This puts you at a great disadvantage since you have to 'assume' that I am 'perhaps' telling the truth. I thank you, and the others. for that.

You posted --> 'I doubt the history that is being told here'.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
And you rightly should. I could claim to have discovered Atlantis or Azatlan, which we possibly have, but until reasonable or physical proof is produced, you would be foolish to simply accept my word on this.

I have always tried to be open on any questioning, except for certain critical data, which most understand, must be kept secret until adequate security has been attained.
*****************************************************************

You also posted -->

'I have seen nothing that shows there was a Jesuit mission'
~~~~~~~~~~~~

I have shown two pictures of both the mission above Tayopa, and the Church headquarters. they are both found in the forum of Tayopa.

The Mission site on the saddle above Tayopa was confirmed by the Local Indians. They still call it 'El Cerro del Templo'. This is the site referred to in all of the maps and documents on Tayopa. All measurements, etc., start from here.

The Main headquarters may have been a church, or simply a large building, this has never been made clear to me by the same Indians that agreed that I was right on the location of the Mission. In the picture, you can clearly see the difference in the coloration from the dissolved adobe bricks and the local soil. It is also known as El Rancho de Tayopa

I must ask you to remember that almost 400 years have past, one certainly cannot expect to see a pristine building. Even the adobe buildings from the early 1900's in Tucson or Phoenix are gone.
*****************************************************************
You posted --> or that the Jesuits worked your mine.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sorry, I must admit that I don't have the payroll vouchers handy. But I do suggest that you check the past posts in Tayopa. I posted about the site one day East from Tayopa where they constructed a strong room underground. The residents told me about the Black Robes descending from Tayopa with many records and some bars which they deposited inside, locked the metal doors, then caved the dirt over the entrance.

They told me this was mine since they didn't believe that the Black robes would ever return since it had been many generations since they left.

Sooo CJ if you want written proof, get off of your duff and get to work, however this is no Sunday weekend trip. It will take time to correctly find the caved entrance on the slope of the hill. This is still today a very isolated ranch. Beans and tortillas are the main course. Another project for Beth and Oro, when they aren't busy on another..

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

I have only a casual interest in Tayopa, so I won't be leaving my duff anytime soon to investigate the matter.

The natives will tell you what they think you want to hear......have been doing that since Cortez, and nothing has changed that habit. Keeping you there and creating some beans and tortillas for the table is more than enough incentive for them.

Your pictures are interesting, actually very interesting. At this late date, who's to say what they were. There was a great deal of mining in the area and it is well documented. Believe a great deal, if not all of it, ended because of hostile native pressure, including Apache.

Much of that has been reopened and reworked. Your buildings could very well be mining companies work or even Franciscans......which seems most likely. Granted it could be Jesuit, but there is no record of such a presence. That would include the manuscripts and diaries of those who would have knowledge of it.

I hope you do fill in those blank pages and change accepted history. I have absolutely no axe to grind here. My interest is history, pure and simple. If the Jesuits have been lying all these years, I want to know the truth. Get the evidence and I will be at the front of the cheerleading.

While I have great respect for your work, Flipper's and the stories of J. Frank Dobie, I will reserve judgement on the truth of your "history" until the experts examine the documents.

Having said that, I wish you good luck and good hunting.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,
Looking into this document, the inventory of Tayopa, which is a primary source that ties the Jesuits to the mines and treasures of Tayopa, and those dates found on it - 1603 and 1646, we find it "fits" with a period of history in Mexico which was highly turbulent.
The name of the person who made the copy in 1646 was Right Reverend Father Guardian Fray, Francisco Villegas Garsina y Orosco, and the 1603 original mentions a Right Reverend Father Ignacio Maria de Retana, whom may or may not have been a Jesuit. Some sources on Tayopa state it was Franciscans who had it first. At any rate the Jesuit in charge of New Spain was Father Calderon, whom was replaced in March of 1645 by Father Juan de Bueras.

This just happens to be a period when the Jesuits were establishing new missions in Sonora, including the founding of Arizpe by Jesuit Father Geronimo de la Canal, also spelled with a "J". There was an epidemic which swept the country in that year too, and trouble with the Indians, which is very in keeping with the story of Tayopa. The Bishop Palafox we mentioned earlier made several long tours of the missions in 1643,44 and 46, which may be what resulted in his attacks on the various Orders with control of New Spain. It is also during this very period when the (contested) letter of Palafox mentions the Jesuits having "very rich silver mines". Or is it pure coincidence that letter accusing the Jesuits of having silver mines attributed to Palafox whom toured in 1646, the date of our inventory, dates to right after this. Could it be that he was simply referring to Tayopa, if not others? I think so.

What DID Bishop Palafox find in his tours? In one case, he found that in the estate of a deceased prelate, which was stated by magistrate Torreblanca as a value of 14,483 pesos, had failed to mention a number of other items brought by the archbishop from Peru - including a jewel-encrusted breastplate valued at 50,000 pesos, 43,900 pesos in silver, and two thick gold chains which Torreblanca had stolen with the assistance of his nephew - the "kicker" is that these riches had been stored by the bedside of the deceased archbishop, in two heavy boxes labeled, now brace yourself for you have heard this before, "somewhere" -CHOCOLATE. This was a considerable fortune for that time I would point out as well.

I don't have a list handy of all the names of Jesuits or other Orders priests or laymen who served in the frontier regions and doubt it can be found easily. I am not even sure that the Father de Retana named on the inventory was a Jesuit, he may well have been a secular priest. Another version has the padre whom casted the bells named Lorenzo.

Here is an extract listing the towns and dates they were founded in Sonora, during the time period when the inventory was taken at Guadeloupe de Tayopa

NOTICIA de la fundación de alguno lugares del tomada del sabio geógrafo Don Manuel Orozco y en su obra Geografía de las lenguas 6 carta de México NOMBRES Años Nuestra Señora de la Asunción Arizpe 1648 San Lorenzo Guepac 1639 Bacoaiz Bacoatzi Bacochi 1660 San José Chinipa 1648 Nuestra Señora de los Remedios de Beramitzi Ba namitzi 1639 San Ignacio Soniquipa 1646 Purísima de Babicora Babiacora Babicori 1639 Guásabas 1645 Oputo 1645 Bacadeguatzi 1645 Nacori 1645 Bacerac 1645 Babispe 1645 Oposura 1644 Cumpas 1644 Cuquiaratzi 1653 Cuchuta 1653 Teuricatzi 1G53 Tepache 1678 Yecori 1673 Guatzinera 1645

<Compendio de la geografia del estado de Sonora By José María Pérez Hernández MÉXICO TIP DEL COMERCIO A CAROO DE MABIANO LABA HIJO CORDOBANES NUMEBO 8 1872 pp139>

That the Jesuit missionaries were entering Sonora (and Sinaloa) by 1591, with the backing of the Spanish crown and military escorts

pesos alguno VIII En 1590 por cédula de Felipe II á solicitud de San Francisco de Borja general de la orden de la compañía de Jesús se concedió á sus regulares la conquista espiritual de las provincias de Sonora y Sinaloa y aunque se aseguró que no seria gravosa al tesoro real el resultado fue que entre los misioneros los colonos y la tropa consumieron mas de ocho millones de pesos desde 1591 á 1596 que si algo se logró alcanzar en ia conquista fue debido al eñcaz auxilio de Sebastian Vizcaino quien se retiró después con gran parte de su fuerza

<ibid>

You see amigos there have been some chapters of history erased. Whom is credited with the founding of Guevavi? When was it founded? 1691 by Father Kino right? Hmm, then why do we find this:

En 1638 los regulares de la compañía de Jesús se encargaron nuevamente de la educación civil y religiosa de los naturales siendo nombrado superior el RP Fr Bartolomé Castaño el que ayudado por vanos de sus compañeros fundó al gt nos pueblos y misiones entre ellos Nacozari B ivispe Pópulo Caborca Arivechi Güevavi Ona vas Comuripa Alamos Batuc Cucurpe Zoari pa Mobas Ures Babiácora Cocospera Oposura y otros

<ibid>

Two Guevavis? Notice also the town of Nacori - this one is important in the history of Tayopa. Spelling seems to be a major problem when researching this history, and with Tayopa there are numerous spellings. (I have seen several explanations for this, all will do) So we may well miss the fact, that here in 1730, a census found that a population of 386 Jobal Indios were living in the town of TEOPARI. If you say it out loud, you see the similarity to Tayopa, or Teopa, Tiopa, Taiope, etc. The editors failed to erase ALL traces.

In that 1730 census, we have another clue too - Jobal Indios. What tribe is that, you might ask? It is one division of the Opatas! Remember that in Espanol, B sounds very much like V.

Jova
A former Opata division inhabiting principally the valley of the stream on which Sahuaripa lat 29 Ion 109 is situated in Sonora Mexico and extending E into Chihuahua to and including the village of Dolores on a s tributary of Rio Aros Its members are now completely Mexicanized The language spoken differed dialectically from the Opata proper and the Kudeve The Jova settlements were Arivechi Chamada Natora Ponida Sahuaripa in part San Mateo Malzura Santa Marfa de las Dolores Santo Tomas Satechi Servas Setasura and Teopari F w H J ba Davila Sonora Hist 316 1894 Joba Iblil 317 Jobal CTOZPO y Berra Geoff 315 1864 Jobale Ibid Jova Ibid Ovai Ibid Bahua ripu Ibid

<from Handbook of American Indians north of Mexico, Volume 1 By Frederick Webb Hodge, Washington Government Printing Office, 1907>

Why is this part of history so "edited"? A good part of the answer is that in 1646 was a major Indian uprising, which resulted in the loss of Tayopa - which at the moment, if it was indeed a Cura, would have been the center where most records were stored. Only scattered documents have turned up which can be traced to Tayopa, always in the villages or rancherias around it. The archives of Tayopa itself might have simply been burned on the sack of the Real, or they may have been taken by the Indians as curious trophies (at least one document has this explanation of how it came to be in private Indians hands) or they may even be still stored in a vault room built for the purpose, waiting for someone to discover them and bring them back to light. Outside references to Tayopa are more mysterious - but remember Rule # 21, nothing which might redound to the discredit of our missionaries will be communicated to laymen.'

Tayopa had been in 'bonanza' (producing heavily) since 1632, but by 1646 they had not shipped out any silver for several years - they were stockpiling it. In fact all of New Spain was withholding silver shipments to Spain, partly to pay for defenses, partly for other reasons. One very good reason for the Real de Tayopa to "sit" on their silver was the robbery or rather "donacions" which occurred in 1631, 1637 and 1640, when all silver shipments which arrived in Spain were seized by the Crown and the owners forced to accept copper currency in place of it. Would you ship out tons of silver only to have them seized and exchanged for copper? There is quite a difference in value. So it is safe to say that Tayopa almost certainly had been holding back their shipments since 1641, by which time they got wind of the repeated forced 'donacions'.

This time period was turbulent around the world - the Dutch were assailing Brazil and warring with the English as they were a world power; the French too were making incursions. By the 1680's the British colonies 'almost' revolted and separated from the kingdom, a century before our final and successful revolution.

Cactusjumper states he has seen nothing to tie the Jesuits to Tayopa; this is to dismiss the inventory documents found by Henry Flipper, which dovetail surprisingly well with other historical sources. This is not the only document ever found to support the existence of Tayopa, Teopa, Teopari or Tiyopah as it has been variously spelled over the centuries. Opata Indians were still living in the area in the 1730's and it is from Opatas that at least one document (in private ownership) was found. The area lay today within Chihuahua state, but in the 1600's it was considered a part of Sonora.

Oh and Joe - did you notice, while taking note that miners, Indians etc were supporting the actions of de Retana, that this same de Retana left his personal estate to...(drum roll for drama) ...the Jesuits. He also stated that he was a bachelor and childless. Hmm.

Good luck and good hunting amigos I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Excellent post my friend Oro:

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Muchas gracias mi compadre! It was a "labor of love" and quite a struggle to try to read Spanish books. Sure wish I could read Espanol easily!
Oroblanco

Oh and PS amigo - by one account, the amount of silver they stored before the attack was 23,000,000 pesos, not counting the gold, bells etc just in ingots. This at 1646 prices, we can only guess at the value today.

 

[froggy]

Hi all:

Fact and fiction blend in these tales, becoming “faction”, but key elements are “lost treasures or gold”, “Jesuit mines”, “missing secular records”, highly respected "sources" and – of course – treasure maps.