JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Cactus: You posted onTayopa -->

.I assume we are talking about "Nuestra Senora de Guadalupe de Tayopa Mission", but not the new church build in the early 20th. Century. The old buuilding was around 1 1/2 miles away. The walls of that building are reduced to about one foot high, and the campo santo which is still used for burials is located at this old site.
~~~~~~~~~~~
That is not the Tayopa of legend, but another mining center from a later period. See the attached picture of the church as it is today
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You also posted -->

Is it believed that the Tayopa Mine was still being worked up until the expulsion?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

NO ! but the mineral zone of Tayopa was. It is several miles in extent. Tayopa and it's 17 other mines was in an area of only some 2500 meters.

See the other attachment.

Don Jose de la Mancha

 

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[gollum]

Another quick search found SEVERAL instances of the name "De Retana" in Spain, mostly around the area of the city of Vitoria.

Funny how that name keeps popping up in Spain of all places. Right where we would expect it to pop up. Not in Mexico, Central, or South America, but SPAIN! HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

Best-Mike

 

[lamar]

Another quick search found SEVERAL instances of the name "De Retana" in Spain, mostly around the area of the city of Vitoria.

Funny how that name keeps popping up in Spain of all places. Right where we would expect it to pop up. Not in Mexico, Central, or South America, but SPAIN! HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

Best-Mike

Der Gollum;
OK, now try to place that last name to a person who was living during the time the Jesuits were in the New World colonies. Having modern people with the name de Retana is of absolutely no help, my friend. In order to find Fr. Ignacio Maria de Retana, first I need to know where his FATHER was born, or another one of his close relatives. Once I know this, then I can find where he was baptised and then confirmed and once I know this then I can ascertain if he was ordained, etc.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Lamar : You posted -->

Yes, the word DE can be used in that regard, but only if the person were of noble birth. There is no Retana family of noble Spainish birth, therefore that becomes a moot point
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Lamar, keep trying. That happens to be the legal name of my girl friend just before I met my wife. She certainly is not of royal birth, in fact one of the families claims to notoriety was that one of the James gang fleeing from the US, slipped in there. He was 'Bay', anyone ever heard of him being associated with the James gang?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[gollum]

Since sweeping statements are still being made, lets make him look even more foolish! Let's put a face to the name:

Who is the person below? None other than Natalie Ochoa DE RETANA!

Got anything else you want to be embarrassed with? Best-Mike

 

[gollum]

How about some more? But none of these people could possibly exist? Right? Notice there are three pages!

Best-Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Swr:you posted --

it is more than obvious there are no documentation(s) that will support "Jesuit Treasures".
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Snicker, snicker yeah.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[lamar]

Dear Gollum;
Since sweeping statements are still being made, lets make him look even more foolish! Let's put a face to the name:

You really are a rude and crass individual at heart, aren't you? There is no cause for behavior such as you've shown.
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear Gollum;
Also, as I recall, I never once stated that you were *foolish*. If you will review my last post regarding Jesuit Brothers I took the time and the effort to explain as best I was able the differences in the various vows which are taken by Roman Catholic monastics. I was not rude to you in the slightest way, therefore I think I deserve the same respect.
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear Gollum;
Youi know what YOU need to do now? You need to contact those people whom you've so flagrantly violtated their privacies and ask THEM about Fr. Ignacio Jose de Retana! That's the point that I am trying to make here, but you're so caught up in trying to make me look foolish that you are missing the boat entirely.
LAMAR

 

[cactusjumper]

Gentlemen,

You are all running away from the real question of any meaning: Was there ever a Jesuit Priest named "Ignacio Maria de Retana"?

I realize that won't change your belief in this story one whit, but these legends need to be examined one "fact" at a time. When you get to the end, it's time to weigh the truth of the entire story.

Had you done that with my story, I believe I would have come out ahead of the game.

There seems little reason for this debate to draw so much heat. I consider everyone here my friend, well.....except for Ritchie, who did his work here and slithered back to DesertUSA where he belongs. That's the only place to ever give his huge head a home.

On the other hand, I could, of course, be wrong.

"Juan Fernández de Retana" That name is just to settle the debate as to if it was a name in use in New Spain. http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/FF/ffe25.html

Enjoy!

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Sorry Charlie,

You attempted to dismiss Oro's input by stating that:

The last name DE Retana refers to a place name (meaning OF or FROM), such as an area or village, yet no such place name exists, either in Europe or Mexico, therefore the last name cannot be real, my friend.

What I did was to counter your SWEEPING STATEMENT that no such individual could possibly exist because no such place as Retana exists. There you go once again! Feign injury so as to avoid admitting that you were not only mistaken, but condescending toward Oroblanco! You stated that his post was not even worthy of research due to your godlike knowledge of names and places, and what could or could not exist.

If what I posted seemed offensive to you, then so be it. You have time and again dismissed my statements, and been rude to me. Been rude to others, and expect no such treatment in return. Sorry, but life does not work that way. There was a time when we had an adult discourse, but you saw fit to time and again to make sure that didn't continue.

Everybody here that knows me knows that I do not act this way lightly or without provocation. I do not turn the other cheek, I get cheeky!

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Just to be clear.......

Where our friend Lamar went wrong, was not in the meaning of the word "de". In that he was absolutely correct. His mistake was in stating that there was no such place as "Retana". Because of the fact that there were so many de Retana's out there, it was obvious that such a place existed. It was easy to find.......http://www.fallingrain.com/world/SP/59/Retana.html

What say we move on to Father Retana?

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

I agree wholeheartedly. What I had expected (although I knew would never happen) would be for Lamar to say:

"Sorry Oro if I sounded dismissive in my statement to you, and I was mistaken in my post when I stated that no such person as Father De Retana could possibly exist because no such place ever existed. I will check my sources to see if I can find anything."

If something to that effect had been posted, it would have avoided a lot of unpleasantness. Oh well, maybe next time (we can only hope).

Best-Mike

 

[lamar]

I agree wholeheartedly. What I had expected (although I knew would never happen) would be for Lamar to say:

"Sorry Oro if I sounded dismissive in my statement to you, and I was mistaken in my post when I stated that no such person as Father De Retana could possibly exist because no such place ever existed. I will check my sources to see if I can find anything."

If something to that effect had been posted, it would have avoided a lot of unpleasantness. Oh well, maybe next time (we can only hope).

Best-Mike

If someday you carefully persue my prior statement, it was addressed to Cactusjumper and NOT to Oroblanco.
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear Cactusjumper;
I was also spelling Retana as RATANA which is where I took a wrong turn, I think. It's late now and I am reeling, therefore I'll continue trying to track down who this Jesuit was and if he left any memoirs at his last place of residence. After the expulsion, things got sort of hairy and lots of documents were lost and eventually perished through the passage of time. Now that I have an idea of the area where he hailed from I am pretty certain that I can nail down the particulars. I would be particularly interested if Fr. Retana knew about bell casting or metal founding in general. If so, then this would be the first known example of bell casting in the New World colonies.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Sorry Charlie,

You attempted to dismiss Oro's input by stating that:

The last name DE Retana refers to a place name (meaning OF or FROM), such as an area or village, yet no such place name exists, either in Europe or Mexico, therefore the last name cannot be real, my friend.

What I did was to counter your SWEEPING STATEMENT that no such individual could possibly exist because no such place as Retana exists. There you go once again! Feign injury so as to avoid admitting that you were not only mistaken, but condescending toward Oroblanco! You stated that his post was not even worthy of research due to your godlike knowledge of names and places, and what could or could not exist.

If what I posted seemed offensive to you, then so be it. You have time and again dismissed my statements, and been rude to me. Been rude to others, and expect no such treatment in return. Sorry, but life does not work that way. There was a time when we had an adult discourse, but you saw fit to time and again to make sure that didn't continue.

Everybody here that knows me knows that I do not act this way lightly or without provocation. I do not turn the other cheek, I get cheeky!

Best-Mike

Like I stated previously, in my explanation of the subtle differences between simple and solemn vows, I was not rude to you in the slightest. In fact, I had decided to show you the utmost respect and dignity in all future correspondence in order that we heal the rift between us, however if rude is what you wish for, then I shall ensure that you receive your fair portion.
LAMAR

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

If you want to find some corroborating information, immerse yourself in the works of Henry O. Flipper.

I don't want to do ALL the work.

B

 

[cactusjumper]

My Friend, Mike,

None of us are perfect, but Lamar, IMHO, (education wise) seems to be well above average. In those cases, being right probably happens more often than being wrong. I can see where that would become a comfortable place to be, and a hard place to escape.

Lamar seems to have a slightly egocentric outlook on the world. I have come to accept that humility will not be forthcoming from such a person, despite his professed calling which I have no reason to doubt.

Without Lamar questioning our conclusions, we would all be reduced to a head nodding mutual admiration society. In the process of debating the "facts", we all learn a great deal more about our topics. For instance, we all now know there is a place in Spain called Retana. Even though I had read about General Retana in Mexico, I will never forget that fact again.

What I am trying to say, is that I believe we all get something positive from each other, which far outweighs the negative.

Now about Father Retana......

Take care,

Joe

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

And here I thought Mike and Jose had made that fact clear, and that it was Lamar that was looking up the wrong name. (RATANA)

Guess I misread something.

B