Oroblanco said:
Lamar wrote
to live a life of humble and modest means from the moment I took the simple vows.
Sheesh - I have been living the Jesuit life all these years without even realizing it!
Of course I don't have all the wealth and power of the Order and Church behind me, which does make some differences I suppose.
Lamar also wrote
when this discussion has run it's course, no one will be richer in regards to discovering Jesuit treasure troves, but we will most assuredly become better Roman Catholics in the process! So, it's not ALL bad, everyone
Your first part is an assumption of yours, which is probably correct but cannot be stated with any absolute certainty. The next part of your statement about
we becoming better Roman Catholics is most curious, considering that some of us are not Catholics at all. The last part of your rather brief paragraph is most curious of all, in that you see that our discussion is "bad" yet not ALL bad. How could an examination of history, comparing it with legends, be bad? Rule #21? Your approach to our subject matter is very curious to me. Just an observation on my part.
Oh and one more thing, Lamar wrote
And most certainly, lies, rumors, accusations, mths and untruths often times get repeated, my friend.
I would point out to you, that you have previously stated you are not calling the posted sources LIARS, yet here later, you included the very descriptive term "LIES" and that they get repeated, which certainly is an implication of calling those sources LIARS by default. It doesn't matter to me what you would call them, probably you have a very dark opinion of them indeed considering they disagree with your version of Jesuit mining, treasures etc. Rule #21 of course.
Lamar your recent explanation of Jesuit vows sure served to cloud the waters, so to speak, yet does not settle the matter whether a Jesuit would be breaking his vows if he were to be mining when various precepts forbade it. This particular point is not terribly important for a treasure hunter, but would change the record for those involved, from being disobedient to being obedient. I don't expect you will address this matter, for you still maintain that no Jesuits ever had any mines nor treasures in their possession, nor ever hid any of them. As you have refused to answer my previous question to you, about whom you credit as being first European discoverers of silver in Arizona, I won't ask you anything now.
Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
Dear Oroblanco;
Perhaps it is best to leave issues of psychology to the psychologists, my friend. To clarify my previous statement(s) a bit:
when this discussion has run it's course, no one will be richer in regards to discovering Jesuit treasure troves, but we will most assuredly become better Roman Catholics in the process! So, it's not ALL bad, everyone..
When I stated no one will be richer because there are no Jesuit treasures lying about, this part would be BAD, yet because I am having to clarify and explain large amount of Roman Catholic dogma, policy, both previous and current, rubrics and doctrines, again both past and present, we are all (myself included, because there is NO WAY that any one person can remember all of this stuff!) becoming more knowledgeable about the inner workings of Our Most Holy Roman Catholic Church. This is the GOOD part, my friend, therefore it is not ALL bad. Also, the smiley face with the thumbs up signified that the statement was made in jest, just like the old style Missals where you say the black and do the red. Smiley face icon=humorous statement.
See? Humor!
Moving right along:
Sheesh - I have been living the Jesuit life all these years without even realizing it! Of course I don't have all the wealth and power of the Order and Church behind me, which does make some differences I suppose.
But you COULD be living the life, my friend. It's never too late. You would be surprised at how little physical wealth the *Order* controls and you might also be surprised at how much money the Church spends on charitable works.
Proceeding onwards:
I would point out to you, that you have previously stated you are not calling the posted sources LIARS, yet here later, you included the very descriptive term "LIES" and that they get repeated, which certainly is an implication of calling those sources LIARS by default. It doesn't matter to me what you would call them, probably you have a very dark opinion of them indeed considering they disagree with your version of Jesuit mining, treasures etc. Rule #21 of course.
As I recall, I have stated quite clearly in the recent past that the only people who intentionally slandered( that'd be classified as lying, by the way) the Jesuits were the secular colonists in the New World colonies and everyone else merely repeated and at times, embellished those lies. If they merely repeated the lies, then they are not to be considered as slanderers, merely being slovenly and not performing their own research. If they embellished the lie(s) then they are also guilty.
Also, I painted that statement with a broad brush and I meant for it to be taken that ALL lies pertaining to conspiracy theories in general are unhealthy. And no, I do not have a dark opinion of anyone. In fact I find it to be quite amusing. To explain myself, at one time I also believed in Jesuit treasure hoardes, however after many unsuccessful years I decided to get to root source of the legends. In doing so I've discovered that the Jesuits were caught in the middle of a highly volatile political crossfire from which there was truly no escape.
That the Jesuits were suppressed was the best course of action the Vatican could have possibly taken, because it permitted the Jesuits to thrive and survive in a political climate where there existed few well defined boundaries and many invisible ones.
Continuing on:
Lamar your recent explanation of Jesuit vows sure served to cloud the waters, so to speak, yet does not settle the matter whether a Jesuit would be breaking his vows if he were to be mining when various precepts forbade it. This particular point is not terribly important for a treasure hunter, but would change the record for those involved, from being disobedient to being obedient.
I do not see where I clouded anything, I merely pointed out to Gollum that the Jesuit lay Brothers took the same vows as their ordained counterparts, with the one exception being that the Jesuits whom took only simple vows were permitted to retain their PERSONAL wealth and they were/are also able to bequeath that same wealth to members of their suriving kin, such as neices and/or nephews, or give it all to the Church or to whomever they choose. I understand that the difference between simple and solemn vows is often times a confusing point and it's one which cannot be readily explained on a forum such as this one.
Marching onwards:
As you have refused to answer my previous question to you, about whom you credit as being first European discoverers of silver in Arizona, I won't ask you anything now.
I do apologize now for having missed that present question. To answer it now, might it, could it have possibly been, those dreaded Jesuits (Heaven forbid!)
?
Actually, the discoverer credited with the very first silver discovery in what is now present-day Arizona was the Spanish naturalist Antonio de Espejo and he discovered silver deposits of Planchas de Plata in 1583 AD, however they were not exploited until sometime later. He also is credited for discovering the deposits around Jerome also in 1583, and once again these deposits were not exploited until the area was Christianized at a later date.
Fr. Kino also noted numerous *minas* in the area, however the context of the word *mina* most likely meant *deposits* instead of *mines* as no one was mining that area at the time. The word was utilized interchangeably during the period in question, therefore there is little chance that people were actually mining the ore. Also, had the deposits been worked, Fr. Kino would have almost certainly annotated that fact in his letters.
Your friend;
LAMAR
