JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Oro, you keep forgetting that Tayopa has been found, and probablyy the route to Rome.via Los Caballos in New Mexico and the Rio Bravo (Rio del Norte )

 

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[Oroblanco]

Oro, you keep forgetting that Tayopa has been found, and probablyy the route to Rome.via Los Caballos in New Mexico and the Rio Bravo (Rio del Norte )

Where have I forgotten that Tayopa is found? I did not mention it as a proof of Jesuit mining and amassing of wealth, for the reason that both Jesuits and Franciscans were involved at Tayopa. I believe the Tayopa inventory is referring to the proceeds of the Jesuits, but until and when that treasure is brought to light, can we really be sure it is not Franciscans? That said, in Tayopa we have a treasure 'legend' that you can literally stand at the place, and hopefully hold ore specimens in hand. To me that is pretty 'hard evidence' to ignore.

As to the route via los Caballos in New Mexico, have to respectfully disagree on that one. That route makes no sense to me, and as far as I have been able to determine, regardless of their penchant for secrecy, the Jesuits were ultimately pretty logical guys. That route is long, dangerous and exposed, and is in direct contradiction to the single reported instance of where a pack train of silver was being smuggled OUT of Tayopa, which route appears to have been headed for the Pacific coast somewhat to the south of Tayopa not far to the northeast. New Mexico was technically the Franciscans territory and although there clearly was some 'poaching' by the Jesuits in NM, it appears to have been not all that successful. To me, linking Tayopa to the Caballos is connecting the wrong dots.

On the Jesuits in New Mexico, this is a rather curious tidbit:

The Missions of New Mexico
The Jesuits labored faithfully in this region until 1680 when the Zuni Indians revolted against the tyranny of the Spanish government. All the padres along with the settlers were massacred and the missions destroyed. A few unsuccessful attempts were made later to reclaim the field.

Mission Architecture as Examplified in San Xaier Del Bac: By Prentice Duell pp 127

At first glance, I took this to be a mistake on the part of the author. On checking his sources, which includes rather good reference works on the Jesuits, and re-reading it, I am not at all sure that was a mistake. As you know the Franciscans successfully re-established missions in New Mexico following the Reconquista of 1692, they were not "unsuccessful" in their attempts. The "unsuccessful" attempts to reclaim the field would seem to dovetail with the various attempts of the Jesuits to establish contact with the Moqui from Arizona, even father Kino exhibited some interest in attempting it. I am sure you are also aware of the lack of written records for New Mexico prior to the 1680 revolt, as most of the records were literally burned and lost. However even so, the area where the Moqui lived, is in northern New Mexico not near the Caballos at all, so I still do not see reason to link Tayopa with a treasure there.

Have a bit more to add, but will post this for now.

 

[Oroblanco]

Example of a once-lost Jesuit mine, the Salero


<Note silver prices in 1857 were $1.29 per ounce>
I hope that will open for you, but note the mine is proving to be quite rich, circa 1859 after its rediscovery. What does the USGS have to say about the fabled Salero?

Emory Boundary Survey prospectors In 1856 an exploring party outfitted at San Antonio Tex arrived at Tubac and proceeded to examine the silver mines in the Santa Rita and adjoining mountains and in 1857 the Sonora Mining & Exploring Co and the Arizona Mining Co were formed for the purchase and development of these mines. About the same time an association formed in Cincinnati Ohio with office also in Tubac which by this time had a population of about 500 acquired title to valuable mining property in the Atascosa Mountains on the west and the Santa Rita Mountains on the east including the old Salero mines of the Jesuits. Here too was the headquarters of the Sonora Exploring & Mining Co of which Maj Heintzelman of the United States Army was president. Its operations were conducted mostly north of Tubac the principal property being the Heintzelman mine which in 1857 had been opened to a depth of 50 feet and had on the dump $20,000 in silver sulphide ore that averaged about $1,400 to the ton. In 1860 practically without machinery this mine was still producing annually about $2,500 in silver which was cast into small bars and used as a circulating medium So rich was some of the ore from this and adjoining regions that it paid for transportation on muleback more than 1,000 miles to the City of Mexico

Mineral Deposits of the Santa Rita and Patagonia Mountains, Arizona By Frank Charles Schrader, James Madison Hill, UNITED STATES GEOLOGICAL SURVEY Bulletin 582 pp 22

SALERO MINE
The Salero mine also known as the Darwin and later as the Constitution mine is located in the southern part of the area 7 miles northwest of Patagonia. It is among the oldest mines in the region the deposit having been discovered by the pioneer Jesuits in the seventeenth century. It was worked about 1828 to 1830 by the Tumacacori missionaries and later by Mexicans In 1856 or 1858 John W Wrightson of the Cincinnati Enquirer and his brother became the next owners. They sunk a 75 foot shaft and opened some drifts. About 1858 the mine passed into the hands of the Salero Mining Co of Cincinnati Ohio. From 1858 to 1861 Tubac was the company's headquarters. Its leading men were John W Wrightson manager HC Grosvenor an Englishman engineer Gilbert superintendent Hopkins mineralogist and R Pumpelly geologist. All these men except Pumpelly were killed by the Indians and in 1865 the company retired. 1 During and after the Civil War the mine lay idle until it was relocated by John E McGee for an English corporation but as the mine was on the Boca Float No 3 grant which could not be held it was relinquished. Early in the seventies in the lead silver days it was relocated by George Clark of the Peterson & Clark firm who after working it to some extent bonded it to the Kranz brothers of Sonora Mexico. Later Clark and his partner Peterson worked it themselves took out and shipped $10,000 worth of ore mostly from old workings at about the 60 foot level and it is said left 1,500 tons of second grade 12 ounce silver ore on the dump. About 1897 98 the mine was worked by John Wier of New York City who sunk a 300 foot shaft on the property and did considerable drifting. About 1900 Peterson & Clark sold the mine for $15,000 to the Salero Mines Co of which CH Ferry of New York and WP Blake of Tucson were the leading men. This company began to develop the mine in 1902 started the new shaft in 1904 and installed the present substantial machinery and enlarged the shaft to a two compartment shaft in 1908. At the time of visit the company was drifting east and west on the 400 foot level and running crosscuts. Recently since Mr Blake died Mr Ferry is said to have become the sole owner of the mine. The property comprises a group of several claims among them the Eureka and Thunderer both patented and said to have much ore blocked out in the ground. The mine is opened mainly by two shafts 441 feet apart PI XIV drifts and crosscuts aggregating about 2,000 feet of work. <snip>

ibid, pp 192-193

Here is a view of the mine in 1909


There is plenty online as well:

Salero Camp or Salero Mine is one of the first silver mines to be discovered and worked in Santa Cruz County Arizona.

Considering this is 100% a real mine that really produced a respectable amount of silver, what is SO doubtful about the stories of other mines which remain lost today?

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[sdcfia]

Well I sure don't want to try to tell you what to believe.

Well you sure do a lot of typing trying not to! Just kidding.

<cut>
I don't see what is so unbelievable about this, except where misconceptions on the part of treasure hunters might be interpreting things. As an example, the "massive' treasures or fantastically rich mines, these are not what the evidence points to and it seems that some of this magnification may be on the part of the readers, not in the writing. <cut>

Exactly! I would suggest that the readers are misled by the writing however, not the other way around.

Silver mines produce silver, and gold mines produce gold - yet very little of these seem to have been shipped out by the Jesuits. We know they had issues with thieving even in there own numbers, the obvious solution would be to store the bullion until safe and secure methods of shipping could be devised, which plan got upended with the expulsion. Where is the silver and gold?<cut>

It seems obvious that one answer to that question that must remain on the table is that there just isn't a great deal of gold and silver missing. This has been my suspicion from the git-go. "When the legends become facts, print the legends."

 

[sdcfia]

<cut>
As to the route via los Caballos in New Mexico, have to respectfully disagree on that one. That route makes no sense to me, and as far as I have been able to determine, regardless of their penchant for secrecy, the Jesuits were ultimately pretty logical guys. That route is long, dangerous and exposed, and is in direct contradiction to the single reported instance of where a pack train of silver was being smuggled OUT of Tayopa, which route appears to have been headed for the Pacific coast somewhat to the south of Tayopa not far to the northeast. New Mexico was technically the Franciscans territory and although there clearly was some 'poaching' by the Jesuits in NM, it appears to have been not all that successful. To me, linking Tayopa to the Caballos is connecting the wrong dots.

This is clearly a sensible, and I believe, spot-on analysis. Don Jose has forwarded his argument solely based on the, uh, "questionable" Noss map that NP posted some months ago on one of the Victorio Peak threads. I hope his evidence supporting discovery of Tayopa is more convincing, because this argument fails on a number of critical factors - all listed on the VP thread.

On the Jesuits in New Mexico, this is a rather curious tidbit:


Mission Architecture as Examplified in San Xaier Del Bac: By Prentice Duell pp 127

At first glance, I took this to be a mistake on the part of the author. On checking his sources, which includes rather good reference works on the Jesuits, and re-reading it, I am not at all sure that was a mistake. As you know the Franciscans successfully re-established missions in New Mexico following the Reconquista of 1692, they were not "unsuccessful" in their attempts. The "unsuccessful" attempts to reclaim the field would seem to dovetail with the various attempts of the Jesuits to establish contact with the Moqui from Arizona, even father Kino exhibited some interest in attempting it. I am sure you are also aware of the lack of written records for New Mexico prior to the 1680 revolt, as most of the records were literally burned and lost. However even so, the area where the Moqui lived, is in northern New Mexico not near the Caballos at all, so I still do not see reason to link Tayopa with a treasure there.

Have a bit more to add, but will post this for now.

Two points I've noticed which might explain the misconception that the Jesuits were active in New Mexico prior to their expulsion (they weren't, except for a couple small "secret missions", IMO). For one, many early maps included today's Arizona in an all-incompassing "New Mexico", thus all the San Pedro River valley Jesuit activity might be placed in New Mexico by a writer. Here's an example from 1857.



Second, it seems a lot of folks - especially treasure hunter types - just don't distinguish a difference between Jesuits and, say, Franciscans. I guess all early church people were the same to them. I've seen this error especially used in the Caballo region by experts pushing their shaky-to-begin-with theories. Statement sucgh as, "... the Jesuit Fra Cristabol had a secret mine ...", "... all the Jesuit missions on the Rio Grande ...", etc. Faulty knowledge. Leads to faulty logic.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Oro, Sdc, if you look at a map of Mexico you will see that the obvious, most practical route to a shipping point on the east coast is via El Rio Grande.

A short jog to the north from Chihuahua puts you at the Caballos, Rio Del Norte, both for storing and shipping, saving a thousand or so miles of burro, Mule travel.

Also there is no other reasonable explanation for the massive deposits , Than from the mines in the western states.

 

[Oroblanco]

Oro, Sdc, if you look at a map of Mexico you will see that the obvious, most practical route to a shipping point on the east coast is via El Rio Grande.

A short jog to the north from Chihuahua puts you at the Caballos, Rio Del Norte, both for storing and shipping, saving a thousand or so miles of burro, Mule travel.

Also there is no other reasonable explanation for the massive deposits , Than from the mines in the western states.

Well - firstly, the mines of Tayopa were not the only mines producing gold or silver right? A treasure in the Caballos could have come from other mines, could it not? Nentvig lists quite a few in Sonora and never even mentions the numerous mines in Chihuahua, plus there were mines in New Mexico itself. The Santa Rita del Cobre mine(s) come to mind as an example.

Secondly, we have the account from a Spanish explorer traveling the Pacific coast of Mexico, who on landing in quest of fresh water and supplies, <posted in this thread some time ago, don't have time to hunt it up right now> expecting to find virgin wilderness, instead encounters a pack train of mules loaded with silver from Tayopa headed for the very coast he was exploring. They were apparently sneaking to the Pacific with it. Now recall that the Jesuits actually had their own ship which traveled with the Manila galleon, a smaller ship than the huge thousand-ton galleons but one they did not have to provide shipping manifests to Spanish authorities to load their goods on it. This means we have a reported encounter of their smuggling, and the Jesuits had their own cargo ship operating in those very waters at that time. I do not know why they would choose to ship out silver by that route, when the east coast looks more direct to Rome or Spain, but we don't really know exactly where they wanted to send the bullion either - maybe it was not being ALL sent to Rome.

No offense to NP or his map but he was very vague on the provenance of it, we simply don't know where it originated. It could have been made, incorporating information that you yourself have provided in various discussions some years ago, that now seems to dovetail with info you know. You and I were discussing Tayopa on this very site way back in the 90s and in fact on a couple of other web sites years before this in the days of dial up and almost NO graphics online, a person with an interest in Tayopa could easily have been following your informative posts for quite some time.

Sdcfia - sorry my posts are too long winded for you. This topic has been a personal favorite for a long time so I tend to expend more time/effort to try to show why I am convinced. It really doesn't matter to me if others don't believe there ever were Jesuit mines or treasures, that is less competition in fact. But one last thing to weigh in the balance, the ID of the mines (most of them anyway) in Arizona alleged to be Jesuit, often comes from local Indians. In fact one USGS publication even states that several "still living" but very old Indians could remember when the black robes were running the mines, not the grey robed Franciscans. "The black robes" had "made us work hard" one old woman remembered. The Salero was operated by both so may not be the best example, and the placer and one lode mine of the Colorado river area are clearly Franciscan yet even so, some newspaper writers have changed that to Jesuit too even though no Jesuit was present at the twin missions which were the center of activity. Misidentification is clearly a factor especially in newspaper accounts.

I suspect that the Jesuits did make some kind of effort with the Moquis prior to 1680, that is not well documented. They seemed more interested in reaching the Moquis after 1680 than the Franciscans whom had some five documented missions among them. Also, after NM became part of the US, it was not that many years until the Jesuits came to New Mexico and remained for quite some time, even attempting to take over the school system in the whole territory among other things. The history of New Mexico is far more complex than Arizona, and very interesting.


Good luck and good hunting amigos I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[sdcfia]

Oro, Sdc, if you look at a map of Mexico you will see that the obvious, most practical route to a shipping point on the east coast is via El Rio Grande.

A short jog to the north from Chihuahua puts you at the Caballos, Rio Del Norte, both for storing and shipping, saving a thousand or so miles of burro, Mule travel.

Also there is no other reasonable explanation for the massive deposits , Than from the mines in the western states.

Here's the route of El Camino Real de Tierra Adentro, in use continuously since Onate in 1598. It was frequented by Spanish and Franciscan from Mexico throuigh Chihuahua and into new Mexico via Paso del Norte, and up the Rio Grande.



Why travel north of Paso del Norte, in plain sight of Spaniards and Franciscans, to the Caballos? Then, later, travel back down the Camino Real to Paso del Norte, risking detection again by the Spanish and Franciscans, in order to reach the Gulf of Mexico? Not only is there no mention of any such observations in the Spanish records, it doesn't make sense. if you wanted to get to the Rio Grande, why not cross Camino Real only once, say above or below el Carrizal, then straight to the Rio Grande - a more secure route saving hundreds of double-back travel miles?

Going through Janos is no better. Janos was a Spanish-Franciscan stronghold since 1580. And don't forget the issue of the Apaches. How did the Jesuits manage to avoid them on their way to the Caballos? We know these natives were in a constant state of guerilla war in the border regions. By the way, NP's map listing all the Jesuit traffic to the Caballos prior to 1767 fails to account for the fact that the mountains were named El Perrillo Sierra at that time and wasn't known by its present name until Zebulon Pike's reference in 1807. Oops.

If the Jesuits felt a need to make shipments east via the Rio Grande, it seems a no-brainer they would have no good reason to travel north through troublesome terrain to then go back south. It would have made more sense to take the easier route east to the river.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi Oro del Tayopa, you posted ---- Well - firstly, the mines of Tayopa were not the only mines producing gold or silver right? A treasure in the Caballos could have come from other mines,

I agreed on that

#########

maybe it was not being ALL sent to Rome.

of coures not. But they did have a backlog at the Caballos.




ORO-It could have been made, incorporating information that you yourself have provided in various discussions some years ago, that now seems to dovetail with info you know. You and I were discussing Tayopa on this very site way back in the 90s and in fact on a couple of other web sites years before this in the days of dial up and almost NO graphics online, a person with an interest in Tayopa could easily have been following your informative posts for quite some time.

True, but there are some points that I did not give out, nor have others. Points that were developed since the 90's when I first found Tayopa. (some day perhaps we will make a belated dime off of Tayopa, Beth will appreciate that )

No the circumstances are too great for to to have been made later. There is far more than meets the eye in the Caballos, nt the least " There is no easily accountable way for the deposits to contain such amount of Dore' bars, no other complex in NM, ARIZ, or anywhere else could account for a deposit of that size.

Remember this was a clandestine opration, so why would any other mines be involved.? Exactly why the shipments ceased is still debateble This we have to explore.

#########################

And your posts are NOT TOO long, even when they are argueing aginst my ""irrefugable"" data, which is mostly casual relation to
The Caballos.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Sdc, we ony have a reorted data on the conditions.

During wwii (42) I was stationed on Guadacanal. We shot down Japanese planes with US 41 & 42 made instruments. When questioned, we were told to keep quiet, you arent asking where the rubber for your tires came from"? They had a point, " business as usual ".

Perhaps the Jesuits operated on the same principal, HENCE NO RECORDS..

 

[sdcfia]

Sdc, we ony have a reorted data on the conditions.

During wwii (42) I was stationed on Guadacanal. We shot down Japanese planes with US 41 & 42 made instruments. When questioned, we were told to keep quiet, you arent asking where the rubber for your tires came from"? They had a point, " business as usual ".

Perhaps the Jesuits operated on the same principal, HENCE NO RECORDS..

I'm sure they did, but what about the Spanish? Don't you suspect they might have raised an issue, seeing heavily armed packtrains of illegal contraband passing through El Paso, coming and going? Are you going to claim they just took their mordida and looked the other way? If so, what was their share? Half?

There's just no need to travel northeast when an eastern route would cut the mileage in half. Assuming, that is, that the Jesuits had the gold they were rumored to have.

 

[Oroblanco]

Hi Oro del Tayopa, you posted ---- Well - firstly, the mines of Tayopa were not the only mines producing gold or silver right? A treasure in the Caballos could have come from other mines,

I agreed on that

#########

maybe it was not being ALL sent to Rome.

of coures not. But they did have a backlog at the Caballos.




ORO-It could have been made, incorporating information that you yourself have provided in various discussions some years ago, that now seems to dovetail with info you know. You and I were discussing Tayopa on this very site way back in the 90s and in fact on a couple of other web sites years before this in the days of dial up and almost NO graphics online, a person with an interest in Tayopa could easily have been following your informative posts for quite some time.

True, but there are some points that I did not give out, nor have others. Points that were developed since the 90's when I first found Tayopa. (some day perhaps we will make a belated dime off of Tayopa, Beth will appreciate that )

No the circumstances are too great for to to have been made later. Thre is far more than mets the eye in the Caballos, nt the least " There is no easily accountable way for the deposits to contain such amount of Dore' bars, no other complex in NM, ARIZ, or anywhere else could account for a deposit of that size.

Remember this was a clndestine opration, so why would any other mines be involved.? Exactly why the shipments ceased is still debateble This we have to explore.

#########################

And your posts are NOT TOO long, even when they are argueing aginst my ""irrefugable"" data, which is mostly casual relation to
The Caballos.

Well sorry but this Caballos theory just doesn't make sense to me. Why would one even be looking in that direction, with all the problems just listed, not to mention the extra distances, when we know the Jesuits had their own ship operating in the Pacific, and the only known instance where a shipment of silver from Tayopa was encountered, was on an unknown road or trail heading west to the Pacific, <trail unknown to the Spanish that is> found only by sheer accident? I would think that amounts to a rather 'smoking gun' for the direction and method used for the illicit shipments, that is, bullion not being reported openly. The only reason I can see for them to change their shipping route would be that it had gotten discovered by accident, and since nothing was done by the Spanish authorities even after this reported smuggling, why would they have needed to? No Apaches to deal with, no one watching at all, and their own ships right there to haul it away without so much as raising an eyebrow of the Spanish govt.

Now throw in the Dutch corsairs operating in that same Pacific, including up the gulf of California where the Jesuits had other ships of their own, and yet never seem to have been bothered by those pesky Dutch and English pirates whom were busily raiding every Spanish settlement and mission church they could find. Isn't it odd, that the Spanish Manila galleon was attacked a number of times over the years, yet not once was the Jesuit merchant ship that was sailing right along with it, ever bothered? Curious no?

In short I don't think the Tayopa bullion was getting shipped via the Atlantic at all, it was going west across the Pacific, a long and roundabout route but still ending in Rome and thus largely avoiding any prying Spanish eyes. This may even be why the shipments stopped, although the Indian troubles seem to be the root problem that pretty well "killed" the original Tayopa even before Pimeria Alta was getting explored by Kino and Salviaterra. I think that inventory of what was stored there, is still there, not because of any problems with their smuggling route but because the whole mission was practically wiped out and abandoned. Hence the continuing Jesuit interest in searching the site, as you know from personal encounters and as has been reported in the newspapers in the 1880s. Also we might note the rather great importance that Jesuits like Kino put on establishing stations in California to support that cross-Pacific traffic, which otherwise seems a bit odd when the short route to Spain is to the east.

If there is a treasure in the Caballos, I think we need to look elsewhere than Tayopa for the source of the riches. There could be a Jesuit priest involved (La Rue) but so far very little to substantiate that story either.

 

[markmar]

Oro and Sdcfia

I believe , to avoid the dangers they had to choose a not logical route . Who would suspect a mules caravan with priests going north who carried flour and cornflour ( aka Maximilian gold practice ) in their baskets ?

 

[deducer]

deducer,

IMHO, your entire post is "subjective". It is based on your opinion, no matter what methodology you have used to reach those opinions.

Father Polzer is an accepted authority on Jesuit history. Your own expertise is based on your apparent conviction that you can "think like a Jesuit", because you have walked some of the same trails that they did. I have no wish to get into a pissing match with you over who has delved deepest into Jesuit thinking and history.

Did you just put your feet in the dirt of Mexico, or did you really look into the Jesuit mindset? How familiar are you with the Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius?

Do you know who said, "The Society wants men who are as accomplished as possible in every discipline that helps it in its purpose. Can you become a good logician? Then become one! A good theologian? Then become one! The same for being a good humanist, and for all the other disciplines that can serve our Institute.....and do not be satisfied with doing it half-way!"

That is an important part of how a Jesuit thinks.

Father Polzer had a deep respect for history. Before you accuse such a man of wanting to "re-edit Jesuit history in the Southwest", you should establish your own qualifications. Right now, I am unimpressed.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

Nadal’s exhortatio complutensis at Alcala in 1561, while it offers some clues in how the first generation Jesuits were trained, and subsequently how they thought, still is just a recruitment pitch to those demonstrating inherent traits in certain areas such as the ability to competently grasp theology or logic, and not “halfway” anything, and not any sort of insight in how those talents were then developed over the next 20 years to further Ignatius’s visions. A better understanding of what was really taught would be an examination of what came to eventually form the Ratio atque Institutio Studiorum Societatis Iesu, or the Ratio Studiorum with an emphasis on the logic theology of St. Thomas of Aquinas, that became the standardized Jesuit education, beginning in 1599, a curriculum which included such arcane subjects as symbolic logic, the very presence of which attests to the Jesuit penchant for secrecy, a thing that would not have been necessary if there were no surreptitious agenda.

It would also be better go back another 21 years and perhaps further back, to understand how and why the Jesuits came to be, and the extraordinary circumstances that gave rise to the genesis that was the Regimini militantis Ecclesiae, a militant reaction to the growing schism within Western Christianity from the Protestant Reformers such as Luther, Calvin, et al., which questioned papal infallibility and catechal absolutism amongst other things. It is fairly common knowledge that the jesuits spearheaded and were the most effective organization behind the counterreformation movement and it is by no accident that the first generation Jesuits simply were known as the “reformed priests.” The Jesuit approach to counterreformation as compared to the other orders founded at the same time were well organized and naturally involved maneuvers of the militantis variety, employing the dual doctrine of futurism and preterism to counter the humanistic logic of Protestant doctrine.

Such warlike enterprise in battling the rise of Protestant Reformation require prodigal sums of money to fund, as all wars do. Don’t think you could find a bigger motive for mining and hoarding of “Jesuit treasure” in Nueva España than that.

The Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius, IMO, is a very good insight into what the model Jesuit was intended to be, in it’s core doctrine of devotionalism- with its four major themes, three of which had to do with the life, passion, and resurrection of Jesus, but altogether and with the help of a spiritual director, within the novitiate training program, were intended to instill the doctrine of Ad maiorem Dei gloriam, that one suffer as Christ once did, the reenactment and the act of which ensured that any act done for the “greater glory of God” would be an act done to perfection, and one that didn’t cut corners, or left anything “half-way” done.

It is not hard to then envision Polzer applying his version of militantis in revising Jesuit in the Southwest history not only to facilitate Kino’s conversion into sainthood, but also to redact any and all references to mining mineral wealth, the refining and storage of, or any mention thereof, not because such things were taboo, but that he and the organization knew that it would be hard for the secular to comprehend that such things really were done for Ad maiorem Dei gloriam, not for sake of hoarding or accumulating wealth.

IMO far better to put my feet in Arizona, the furthermost reach of the Nueva España Jesuits, for it is in such inhospitable territory (at the time) that we learn the most about who and what they really were, than in or near the center of civilization that Mexico was at the time.

 

[somehiker]

I don't know. When we read about a five ton solid gold cross, massive lost gold caches, etc - the accumulation of this gold being attributed to the Southern Arizona Jesuits using unskilled labor under the noses of the Spanish military at Tubac - well, it's tough to know what to believe. I know we've had this discussion before and it's no use repeating allegations that the gold is still hidden and forgotten by the brothers, the military was inept, etc. Those arguments lack support, and considering the "exaggeration factor", can't be validated with "what if" logic. Others' results may vary.

To me, it's plain that the Jesuits likely did locate a few modest silver mines in the area and refined the ore for use in producing church paraphernalia. Some of these mines were also likely Franciscan, misidentified as Jesuit. I will add this - I suspect that the Jesuits may possess knowledge about sites of great historic/economic value in the Southwest that has not appeared in the old correspondence or the modern legends.

I believe you are correct in this assumption.
And that Fr. Claude Sicard SJ, as an example, wasn't looking for souls to save in the Valley of the Kings.

 

[sdcfia]

Oro and Sdcfia

I believe , to avoid the dangers they had to choose a not logical route . Who would suspect a mules caravan with priests going north who carried flour and cornflour ( aka Maximilian gold practice ) in their baskets ?

The Spanish likely would have inspected the loads.

The Franciscans likely would have raised the roof about the Jesuit presence.

The Apaches would have likely killed them all and taken the grain.

 

[markmar]

The Spanish likely would have inspected the loads.

The Franciscans likely would have raised the roof about the Jesuit presence.

The Apaches would have likely killed them all and taken the grain.

The Spanish would not did this to the priests . They were good Catholics with high respect for the Church . Acts like these could be considered a blaspfemy and could cost lives .


The Franciscans and Jesuits were/are " stepbrothers " under the same God . None problem would existed if the Jesuits wanted only to store and not to claim their privileges . Like the infantry and the cavalry of the same army .

The Indians wouldn't kill padres without a very good reason . Supposed the padres had protected the Indians against the Spanish atrocities , and surely the Natives knew that . So , maybe existed between them a friendship relation . I would imagine how the priest carried some goods for these circumstances .

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

ok, snce the trip from Ciudad Chihuahua was on relatively flat ground, carrettas would be used, not strings of burros. as for going north, it was isolated area and had plenty of natural caves

And yes, mordida was an established practice, not even the Franciscans, nor the King, were able to stop it. - A few carretas, no matter how heavily loaded, would be worth a handsome mordida, enough to make any inspector happy.- and did.

And the Tayopa output was in silver, not gold. Tayopa was closed during the Apche uprising. Dobies' map of Tayopa was / is 100 % correct. It shows the Capilla on top of it, which the "Apaces dismantled and threw down into the barrancas - I would love to know the source of the Map..

It has never been reopened, the Jesuits had hidden it too well, but they did retrun to the area and continued working. These were illegal or clandestine mines which were exported to Rome via Los Caballos.

Regarding the name change for the Caballos, May I remind you of the building structure at the bottom of NP's lil map which shows a date later the name change.

AS for Oros suggestion of a trans pacific route to Rome, that is highly illogical. Why trade a trip of a few weeks for one of A year or more through Pirate infested waters = other than the ones Oro suggested.

No, there is no other source of that amount of metal in yet undiscovered silver deposits in the Caballos -

 

[sdcfia]

The Spanish would not did this to the priests . They were good Catholics with high respect for the Church . Acts like these could be considered a blaspfemy and could cost lives .


The Franciscans and Jesuits were/are " stepbrothers " under the same God . None problem would existed if the Jesuits wanted only to store and not to claim their privileges . Like the infantry and the cavalry of the same army .

The Indians wouldn't kill padres without a very good reason . Supposed the padres had protected the Indians against the Spanish atrocities , and surely the Natives knew that . So , maybe existed between them a friendship relation . I would imagine how the priest carried some goods for these circumstances .

I believe you're completely wrong on all three counts Marius. First, if the ban on Jesuit mining in the New World was a real deal, then the brothers were carrying contraband. At the very least, I believe the Crown would have demanded their fifth share of the gold. Did they?

The Franciscans and Jesuits were very territorial, and New Mexico belonged to the Franciscans. The Jesuits had no privileges there.

The Apaches would kill anyone for loot, especially Europeans. There was no love lost for priests. Remember the 1680 Revolt? The normally placid pueblo natives made a special effort to hunt down and kill the local priests first. It took more than a hundred years following the expulsion for the war-bent Apaches to become blanket Indians.

 

[Oroblanco]

ok, snce the trip from Ciudad Chihuahua was on relatively flat ground, carrettas would be used, not strings of burros. as for going north, it was isolated area and had plenty of natural caves

And yes, mordida was an established practice, not even the Franciscans, nor the King, were able to stop it. - A few carretas, no matter how heavily loaded, would be worth a handsome mordida, enough to make any inspector happy.- and did.

And the Tayopa output was in silver, not gold. Tayopa was closed during the Apche uprising. Dobies' map of Tayopa was / is 100 % correct. It shows the Capilla on top of it, which the "Apaces dismantled and threw down into the barrancas - I would love to know the source of the Map..

It has never been reopened, the Jesuits had hidden it too well, but they did retrun to the area and continued working. These were illegal or clandestine mines which were exported to Rome via Los Caballos.

Regarding the name change for the Caballos, May I remind you of the building structure at the bottom of NP's lil map which shows a date later the name change.

AS for Oros suggestion of a trans pacific route to Rome, that is highly illogical. Why trade a trip of a few weeks for one of A year or more through Pirate infested waters = other than the ones Oro suggested.

No, there is no other source of that amount of metal in yet undiscovered silver deposits in the Caballos -

Now I know you are kidding. I would remind you that there were numerous mines in operation over the centuries, including other lost mines associated with the Jesuits and Franciscans. We could as well surmise that the treasure in the Caballos came from El Naranjal as Tayopa, especially considering that treasure in the Caballos has yet to be discovered. After it is found, it will likely be possible to identify the origins much easier.


As to the Pacific route, my theory is based on the evidence of the only intercepted load of Tayopa silver ever reported, and that was on a trail or road unknown to the Spanish, headed for the Pacific where the Jesuits had their own ships operating. Considering that they had missions in the Philippines, India, Africa etc it would be a longer route but one with far less interference from Spanish royal government. I would also point out that pack train of silver was loaded on mules, not carretas which require a better road than what mules can travel, and Segesser reported in one of his letters that the missions of his area were allotted a number of mules for their exports. Not carts or wagons, just pack mules. If the Tayopa silver was being shipped east and northeast all the way into New Mexico, why did a confounded Spanish explorer looking for fresh water and supplies happen on to a pack train headed for the Pacific?

Tayopa was hardly the only mining operation going on in Spanish America, and most of the output was shipped south and east not northeast into what was the frontier, with wild enemies roaming about. So I have to respectfully disagree, any treasure that may or may not exist in the Caballos is more probably originating from some other mining operations.

29 de Mayo de 1860
La Basura is the first mining region discovered in the country of the Papajos and is situated twenty four miles north west of Caborca. Its veins are numerous especially those of gold but although they are of marvelous richness this lasts but a short time as the deposits extend but a short distance below the surface. San Perfecto was the second discovery made in the Papajo country. Quitovac was the third discovery about seventy miles north west from Caborca and the same distance from the town of Guadalupe or Altar. The placers were first worked they being very abundant in gold which lay in grains on the surface as at San Francisco and Cieneguilla. Afterwards many mines were opened to the depth of ten or fifteen varas about 33 inches to each vara some of which yielded from four to eight ounces of gold to the bowl or batea others not more than a few cents. Occasionally pockets were found of large extent that yielded marvelously. Nuggets of large size were also found one weighed twenty one marcs each marc weighing 4,608 grains. A large piece of gold bearing quartz was extracted from a ledge that was nearly all gold and weighed over thirty marcs. San Antonio another placer about ten miles west of Quitovac was discovered a few days after the latter and was exceedingly rich at the surface. The discovery of these placers was owing to Father Faustino Gonzalez who prevailed upon the Papajo Indians to reveal their locality in 1835. Gonzalez made a large fortune and he was soon surrounded by whites and Indians in great numbers. The placer continued rich for several years and was worked until 1841 when the Papajos rose and expelled the whites. After quiet was restored a few persons returned to Quitovac and worked some mines discovered after the placers in the neighborhood of an abundant spring capable of supplying a population of 30,000 or 40.000 inhabitants .

HAMILTON'S Mexican Handbook A COMPLETE DESCRIPTION of the Republic of Mexico 1884, pp 75<Just prior to this extract are mentioned the lost mines of Las Lamas and Espiritu Santo, on the road to Banamichi>

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