Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
Gold Member
Oro, you keep forgetting that Tayopa has been found, and probablyy the route to Rome.via Los Caballos in New Mexico and the Rio Bravo (Rio del Norte )
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Oro, you keep forgetting that Tayopa has been found, and probablyy the route to Rome.via Los Caballos in New Mexico and the Rio Bravo (Rio del Norte )
Mission Architecture as Examplified in San Xaier Del Bac: By Prentice Duell pp 127The Missions of New Mexico
The Jesuits labored faithfully in this region until 1680 when the Zuni Indians revolted against the tyranny of the Spanish government. All the padres along with the settlers were massacred and the missions destroyed. A few unsuccessful attempts were made later to reclaim the field.
Mineral Deposits of the Santa Rita and Patagonia Mountains, Arizona By Frank Charles Schrader, James Madison Hill, UNITED STATES GEOLOGICAL SURVEY Bulletin 582 pp 22Emory Boundary Survey prospectors In 1856 an exploring party outfitted at San Antonio Tex arrived at Tubac and proceeded to examine the silver mines in the Santa Rita and adjoining mountains and in 1857 the Sonora Mining & Exploring Co and the Arizona Mining Co were formed for the purchase and development of these mines. About the same time an association formed in Cincinnati Ohio with office also in Tubac which by this time had a population of about 500 acquired title to valuable mining property in the Atascosa Mountains on the west and the Santa Rita Mountains on the east including the old Salero mines of the Jesuits. Here too was the headquarters of the Sonora Exploring & Mining Co of which Maj Heintzelman of the United States Army was president. Its operations were conducted mostly north of Tubac the principal property being the Heintzelman mine which in 1857 had been opened to a depth of 50 feet and had on the dump $20,000 in silver sulphide ore that averaged about $1,400 to the ton. In 1860 practically without machinery this mine was still producing annually about $2,500 in silver which was cast into small bars and used as a circulating medium So rich was some of the ore from this and adjoining regions that it paid for transportation on muleback more than 1,000 miles to the City of Mexico
ibid, pp 192-193SALERO MINE
The Salero mine also known as the Darwin and later as the Constitution mine is located in the southern part of the area 7 miles northwest of Patagonia. It is among the oldest mines in the region the deposit having been discovered by the pioneer Jesuits in the seventeenth century. It was worked about 1828 to 1830 by the Tumacacori missionaries and later by Mexicans In 1856 or 1858 John W Wrightson of the Cincinnati Enquirer and his brother became the next owners. They sunk a 75 foot shaft and opened some drifts. About 1858 the mine passed into the hands of the Salero Mining Co of Cincinnati Ohio. From 1858 to 1861 Tubac was the company's headquarters. Its leading men were John W Wrightson manager HC Grosvenor an Englishman engineer Gilbert superintendent Hopkins mineralogist and R Pumpelly geologist. All these men except Pumpelly were killed by the Indians and in 1865 the company retired. 1 During and after the Civil War the mine lay idle until it was relocated by John E McGee for an English corporation but as the mine was on the Boca Float No 3 grant which could not be held it was relinquished. Early in the seventies in the lead silver days it was relocated by George Clark of the Peterson & Clark firm who after working it to some extent bonded it to the Kranz brothers of Sonora Mexico. Later Clark and his partner Peterson worked it themselves took out and shipped $10,000 worth of ore mostly from old workings at about the 60 foot level and it is said left 1,500 tons of second grade 12 ounce silver ore on the dump. About 1897 98 the mine was worked by John Wier of New York City who sunk a 300 foot shaft on the property and did considerable drifting. About 1900 Peterson & Clark sold the mine for $15,000 to the Salero Mines Co of which CH Ferry of New York and WP Blake of Tucson were the leading men. This company began to develop the mine in 1902 started the new shaft in 1904 and installed the present substantial machinery and enlarged the shaft to a two compartment shaft in 1908. At the time of visit the company was drifting east and west on the 400 foot level and running crosscuts. Recently since Mr Blake died Mr Ferry is said to have become the sole owner of the mine. The property comprises a group of several claims among them the Eureka and Thunderer both patented and said to have much ore blocked out in the ground. The mine is opened mainly by two shafts 441 feet apart PI XIV drifts and crosscuts aggregating about 2,000 feet of work. <snip>
Well I sure don't want to try to tell you what to believe.
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I don't see what is so unbelievable about this, except where misconceptions on the part of treasure hunters might be interpreting things. As an example, the "massive' treasures or fantastically rich mines, these are not what the evidence points to and it seems that some of this magnification may be on the part of the readers, not in the writing. <cut>
Silver mines produce silver, and gold mines produce gold - yet very little of these seem to have been shipped out by the Jesuits. We know they had issues with thieving even in there own numbers, the obvious solution would be to store the bullion until safe and secure methods of shipping could be devised, which plan got upended with the expulsion. Where is the silver and gold?<cut>
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As to the route via los Caballos in New Mexico, have to respectfully disagree on that one. That route makes no sense to me, and as far as I have been able to determine, regardless of their penchant for secrecy, the Jesuits were ultimately pretty logical guys. That route is long, dangerous and exposed, and is in direct contradiction to the single reported instance of where a pack train of silver was being smuggled OUT of Tayopa, which route appears to have been headed for the Pacific coast somewhat to the south of Tayopa not far to the northeast. New Mexico was technically the Franciscans territory and although there clearly was some 'poaching' by the Jesuits in NM, it appears to have been not all that successful. To me, linking Tayopa to the Caballos is connecting the wrong dots.
On the Jesuits in New Mexico, this is a rather curious tidbit:
Mission Architecture as Examplified in San Xaier Del Bac: By Prentice Duell pp 127
At first glance, I took this to be a mistake on the part of the author. On checking his sources, which includes rather good reference works on the Jesuits, and re-reading it, I am not at all sure that was a mistake. As you know the Franciscans successfully re-established missions in New Mexico following the Reconquista of 1692, they were not "unsuccessful" in their attempts. The "unsuccessful" attempts to reclaim the field would seem to dovetail with the various attempts of the Jesuits to establish contact with the Moqui from Arizona, even father Kino exhibited some interest in attempting it. I am sure you are also aware of the lack of written records for New Mexico prior to the 1680 revolt, as most of the records were literally burned and lost. However even so, the area where the Moqui lived, is in northern New Mexico not near the Caballos at all, so I still do not see reason to link Tayopa with a treasure there.
Have a bit more to add, but will post this for now.
Oro, Sdc, if you look at a map of Mexico you will see that the obvious, most practical route to a shipping point on the east coast is via El Rio Grande.
A short jog to the north from Chihuahua puts you at the Caballos, Rio Del Norte, both for storing and shipping, saving a thousand or so miles of burro, Mule travel.
Also there is no other reasonable explanation for the massive deposits , Than from the mines in the western states.
Oro, Sdc, if you look at a map of Mexico you will see that the obvious, most practical route to a shipping point on the east coast is via El Rio Grande.
A short jog to the north from Chihuahua puts you at the Caballos, Rio Del Norte, both for storing and shipping, saving a thousand or so miles of burro, Mule travel.
Also there is no other reasonable explanation for the massive deposits , Than from the mines in the western states.
Sdc, we ony have a reorted data on the conditions.
During wwii (42) I was stationed on Guadacanal. We shot down Japanese planes with US 41 & 42 made instruments. When questioned, we were told to keep quiet, you arent asking where the rubber for your tires came from"? They had a point, " business as usual ".
Perhaps the Jesuits operated on the same principal, HENCE NO RECORDS..
Hi Oro del Tayopa, you posted ---- Well - firstly, the mines of Tayopa were not the only mines producing gold or silver right? A treasure in the Caballos could have come from other mines,
I agreed on that
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maybe it was not being ALL sent to Rome.
of coures not. But they did have a backlog at the Caballos.
ORO-It could have been made, incorporating information that you yourself have provided in various discussions some years ago, that now seems to dovetail with info you know. You and I were discussing Tayopa on this very site way back in the 90s and in fact on a couple of other web sites years before this in the days of dial up and almost NO graphics online, a person with an interest in Tayopa could easily have been following your informative posts for quite some time.
True, but there are some points that I did not give out, nor have others. Points that were developed since the 90's when I first found Tayopa. (some day perhaps we will make a belated dime off of Tayopa, Beth will appreciate that )
No the circumstances are too great for to to have been made later. Thre is far more than mets the eye in the Caballos, nt the least " There is no easily accountable way for the deposits to contain such amount of Dore' bars, no other complex in NM, ARIZ, or anywhere else could account for a deposit of that size.
Remember this was a clndestine opration, so why would any other mines be involved.? Exactly why the shipments ceased is still debateble This we have to explore.
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And your posts are NOT TOO long, even when they are argueing aginst my ""irrefugable"" data, which is mostly casual relation to
The Caballos.
deducer,
IMHO, your entire post is "subjective". It is based on your opinion, no matter what methodology you have used to reach those opinions.
Father Polzer is an accepted authority on Jesuit history. Your own expertise is based on your apparent conviction that you can "think like a Jesuit", because you have walked some of the same trails that they did. I have no wish to get into a pissing match with you over who has delved deepest into Jesuit thinking and history.
Did you just put your feet in the dirt of Mexico, or did you really look into the Jesuit mindset? How familiar are you with the Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius?
Do you know who said, "The Society wants men who are as accomplished as possible in every discipline that helps it in its purpose. Can you become a good logician? Then become one! A good theologian? Then become one! The same for being a good humanist, and for all the other disciplines that can serve our Institute.....and do not be satisfied with doing it half-way!"
That is an important part of how a Jesuit thinks.
Father Polzer had a deep respect for history. Before you accuse such a man of wanting to "re-edit Jesuit history in the Southwest", you should establish your own qualifications. Right now, I am unimpressed.
Take care,
Joe Ribaudo
I don't know. When we read about a five ton solid gold cross, massive lost gold caches, etc - the accumulation of this gold being attributed to the Southern Arizona Jesuits using unskilled labor under the noses of the Spanish military at Tubac - well, it's tough to know what to believe. I know we've had this discussion before and it's no use repeating allegations that the gold is still hidden and forgotten by the brothers, the military was inept, etc. Those arguments lack support, and considering the "exaggeration factor", can't be validated with "what if" logic. Others' results may vary.
To me, it's plain that the Jesuits likely did locate a few modest silver mines in the area and refined the ore for use in producing church paraphernalia. Some of these mines were also likely Franciscan, misidentified as Jesuit. I will add this - I suspect that the Jesuits may possess knowledge about sites of great historic/economic value in the Southwest that has not appeared in the old correspondence or the modern legends.
Oro and Sdcfia
I believe , to avoid the dangers they had to choose a not logical route . Who would suspect a mules caravan with priests going north who carried flour and cornflour ( aka Maximilian gold practice ) in their baskets ?
The Spanish likely would have inspected the loads.
The Franciscans likely would have raised the roof about the Jesuit presence.
The Apaches would have likely killed them all and taken the grain.
The Spanish would not did this to the priests . They were good Catholics with high respect for the Church . Acts like these could be considered a blaspfemy and could cost lives .
The Franciscans and Jesuits were/are " stepbrothers " under the same God . None problem would existed if the Jesuits wanted only to store and not to claim their privileges . Like the infantry and the cavalry of the same army .
The Indians wouldn't kill padres without a very good reason . Supposed the padres had protected the Indians against the Spanish atrocities , and surely the Natives knew that . So , maybe existed between them a friendship relation . I would imagine how the priest carried some goods for these circumstances .
ok, snce the trip from Ciudad Chihuahua was on relatively flat ground, carrettas would be used, not strings of burros. as for going north, it was isolated area and had plenty of natural caves
And yes, mordida was an established practice, not even the Franciscans, nor the King, were able to stop it. - A few carretas, no matter how heavily loaded, would be worth a handsome mordida, enough to make any inspector happy.- and did.
And the Tayopa output was in silver, not gold. Tayopa was closed during the Apche uprising. Dobies' map of Tayopa was / is 100 % correct. It shows the Capilla on top of it, which the "Apaces dismantled and threw down into the barrancas - I would love to know the source of the Map..
It has never been reopened, the Jesuits had hidden it too well, but they did retrun to the area and continued working. These were illegal or clandestine mines which were exported to Rome via Los Caballos.
Regarding the name change for the Caballos, May I remind you of the building structure at the bottom of NP's lil map which shows a date later the name change.
AS for Oros suggestion of a trans pacific route to Rome, that is highly illogical. Why trade a trip of a few weeks for one of A year or more through Pirate infested waters = other than the ones Oro suggested.
No, there is no other source of that amount of metal in yet undiscovered silver deposits in the Caballos -
HAMILTON'S Mexican Handbook A COMPLETE DESCRIPTION of the Republic of Mexico 1884, pp 75<Just prior to this extract are mentioned the lost mines of Las Lamas and Espiritu Santo, on the road to Banamichi>29 de Mayo de 1860
La Basura is the first mining region discovered in the country of the Papajos and is situated twenty four miles north west of Caborca. Its veins are numerous especially those of gold but although they are of marvelous richness this lasts but a short time as the deposits extend but a short distance below the surface. San Perfecto was the second discovery made in the Papajo country. Quitovac was the third discovery about seventy miles north west from Caborca and the same distance from the town of Guadalupe or Altar. The placers were first worked they being very abundant in gold which lay in grains on the surface as at San Francisco and Cieneguilla. Afterwards many mines were opened to the depth of ten or fifteen varas about 33 inches to each vara some of which yielded from four to eight ounces of gold to the bowl or batea others not more than a few cents. Occasionally pockets were found of large extent that yielded marvelously. Nuggets of large size were also found one weighed twenty one marcs each marc weighing 4,608 grains. A large piece of gold bearing quartz was extracted from a ledge that was nearly all gold and weighed over thirty marcs. San Antonio another placer about ten miles west of Quitovac was discovered a few days after the latter and was exceedingly rich at the surface. The discovery of these placers was owing to Father Faustino Gonzalez who prevailed upon the Papajo Indians to reveal their locality in 1835. Gonzalez made a large fortune and he was soon surrounded by whites and Indians in great numbers. The placer continued rich for several years and was worked until 1841 when the Papajos rose and expelled the whites. After quiet was restored a few persons returned to Quitovac and worked some mines discovered after the placers in the neighborhood of an abundant spring capable of supplying a population of 30,000 or 40.000 inhabitants .