JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

As I said, "The Jesuit Order had many enemies around the world and probably double the norm in Mexico. All were busy looking for any excuse to bend the king's ear against the order. I still maintain that any secret mining would have been very difficult for them to pull off."

"Why" is always an open ended question. It calls for conjecture, as proof is non-existent. I don't really have a dog in this fight, although I was raised Catholic, I am no fan of the religion. I have serious questions about Father Kino sleeping with young Indian boys.......for foot warmers.

Why the Jesuits said this or didn't say that is of no consequence to me. The vagaries of memory and recorded history leave many questions unanswered. Some will fill in the blanks to suit their own beliefs, much as you and I do. That leaves plenty of room for debate.

Also plenty of room for both of our opinions and maybe a few others as well.

Take care,

Joe

I get your point, and our little debate here will not affect a single word in history books. To a degree, I have had the impression this thread was literally "for the record" for all those undecided on the issue, and surely there is enough here for almost any viewpoint. Unfortunately, the two extremes will likely continue, so that some people will still keep looking for the vast mines and massive fortunes, while others will dismiss the idea entirely that any kind of mining or amassing of wealth happened.

It has been a most interesting discussion for me, thank you for your part in it, despite our differences and occasional barbs which I do not take personally and hope the same with you (the written word always comes across much more harsh than spoken, unfortunately) and it has been very educational for me. In fact this has turned into a rather 'lifetime' curiosity for me, as I suspect there may be something absolute which may turn up at some point. It also gives me the excuse to buy more books too. Heck I still have not got a copy of the Rim of Christendom yet, had borrowed one via the library system but other books keep getting ahead of it in the queue of books to buy.

Mowry wrote that he had found papers on over 100 mines run by the padres in Arizona (this would include the Franciscans as well) and another early source mentions some 200+ mines in Arizona (Spanish) and not all of these mines have been found today. I expect that these mines will look more like this one:

than this:


- but I would not even be too surprised if a church mine were found in the Superstitions, although I would more readily believe it to be Franciscan than Jesuit. (Father Garces was especially active in exploring, and quite popular with many of the tribes except the Yumas, remember Kino and Nentvig mentioning about the mineral discoveries)

Take care of yourself Joe, over the years I feel like we have become friends and I can't afford to lose any! Kidding aside, your recent episode could be a sort of early 'alarm' from your internal system that something needs to be taken care of. I am still hoping to take you to show you the lost Standoff Bar mine some day, along with roasting hot dogs after a tour of Mt Rushmore. I have not found the mine yet so need you to hang in there buddy!

Well I am getting carried away here so will close. I am still hoping we can talk Don Jose' el Tropical Tramp himself, to come to the next Dutch hunters rendezvous. If you are reading this mi compadre Jose', I do realize that you do not consider yourself a Dutch hunter, but in effect you are, because you have participated in the research and discussion, besides your own explorations and exploits. Besides, where else will we ever be able to all get together in one place, without bullets flying? (hee hee) I would hope that you could talk El Tigre into coming too, as you know these things are not all-male by any stretch of the imagination (I think there have been female treasure hunters about as long as there have been male treasure hunters, not a pursuit that is strictly limited to one gender) and besides, I now have to serve you the real Arbuckles Ariosa, ala calceti'n. I am still hoping and planning to come to Sonora, but may not be able to do it this year (due to Beth and the postal service) so I am keeping fingers crossed.

Good luck and good hunting to you Joe and Jose and all of you reading our long, sometimes heated but hopefully always interesting discussion; I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

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[Oroblanco]

For our readers whom do not post, here is an example of what was reported seen in San Xavier del Bac, but is missing today, besides the forty thousand dollars worth of silver. This letter mentions something removed from San Xavier del Bac, in 1862

Two years ago a cross of solid gold six feet high weighing five tons was taken from its altar down into Mexico. There are evidences everywhere about corroborating the strange traditions of the country. Most of the mines which are about to commence

from a letter written from Tucson Arizona Territory April 20th 1864 published in History of Arizona, volume 3, Thomas E. Farish, pp 226-227

Now this cross could have been made by the padres on site, either Franciscans or Jesuits, or perhaps it was a gift from the king or a wealthy donor - regardless of the origins, would you not like to find such a thing? Five tons of gold would be quite a treasure to find today!

There is actually quite a lot more, perhaps we can keep the thread going "for the record".

 

[sdcfia]

Two years ago a cross of solid gold six feet high weighing five tons was taken from its altar down into Mexico. There are evidences everywhere about corroborating the strange traditions of the country.

This little piece of church bling would be worth $175,000,000 today in gold value! Removed from the church in squalid little Tucson? When the Muslims looted St Peters Basilica in 846, they took all the church's gold - and that was only 3,000 kg. I agree that the Jesuits (probably more so the Franciscans) did some modest silver mining in the area to produce candlesticks, etc., but this report is sort of, well, just plain silly isn't it?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi sarge, the exagerations flow on both sides, there were no Jesuit Mines to Yes there were many. Course Tayopa was considered the exception, but it wasn't.

 

[markmar]

Hi sarge, the exagerations flow on both sides, there were no Jesuit Mines to Yes there were many. Course Tayopa was considered the exception, but it wasn't.

Don Jose

Talking about Tayopa and Superstitions . The Real de Superstitione has the same shape with the Real de Tayopa .
Maybe they had used the same methodology to open mines when they found a rich in precious minerals region .
This GE picture shows mines which have been decrypted from three different maps . Each colour belongs to a specific map . The red circles are caches which are depicted in the map with the yellow colour , and the one cache ( the bigger circle ) is depicted with words in the map with the blue colour as a " cache " . In the white circle is a clue ( the squared rock ) from the blue colour map ( just for those who have heard of this clue ).

 

[deducer]

The Jesuit Order had many enemies around the world and probably double the norm in Mexico. All were busy looking for any excuse to bend the king's ear against the order. I still maintain that any secret mining would have been very difficult for them to pull off.

Regarding the last sentence, how so?

Do you have any proof, or solid reasoning as to why "secret mining" would have been "very difficult" to pull off.

 

[cactusjumper]

Regarding the last sentence, how so?

Do you have any proof, or solid reasoning as to why "secret mining" would have been "very difficult" to pull off.

deducer,

I think I explained my reasoning quite well:

"The main reason for the belief for that, is the great number of constant visitations to the missions, and the inordinate searching for precious metals by........others. Those others knew where to search for gold and silver. History tells us that the Jesuits placed their missions near plentiful water supplies, natives for conversion and mines that needed priests to tend to the needs of the miners and the people who were required to support those endeavors."

If I need to make the reasons for my beliefs plainer, it would be the historical (recorded) movements through Mexico, a great deal of which was being done by folks who were not fans of the Jesuit Order. In other words, the missions had a great many visitors who came and went on their own schedules.

If, as some think, the Jesuits worked mines close to their missions, the danger of exposure would have been heightened by prospectors and visitors.

As I have said, it's just my opinion based on the history I have read and the lack of success for the many treasure hunters who have searched since the order was expelled.

As I have also mentioned before, the Spanish, themselves, were very poor at keeping secrets during that era.

Sorry if that's not enough of an explanation, as it's really all I have, and all anyone else has. Opinion.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi joe, most of the early mines only had a few miners to perhaps a dozen or so. so you can rule out that reason for the missions

As fr keeping secrets the Jesuitw were, still are, famous for keeping them, even from the king and Rome.

 

[cactusjumper]

deducer,

One other thing.......When you offer an opinion, based on written history, that history is all the proof that is needed. When you offer up a story with names, dates and places, without sources, you should be expected to provide them. For instance, if I made a statement (as fact) that the Stone Maps were removed from the floor of a mission in Arizpe, I would not be surprised if folks asked for a source.

History often gets changed one word at a time, and sometimes by entire stories. I am someone who resists that tendency.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Sdcfia wrote

<Oroblanco posted earlier:>

Two years ago a cross of solid gold six feet high weighing five tons was taken from its altar down into Mexico. There are evidences everywhere about corroborating the strange traditions of the country.

This little piece of church bling would be worth $175,000,000 today in gold value! Removed from the church in squalid little Tucson? When the Muslims looted St Peters Basilica in 846, they took all the church's gold - and that was only 3,000 kg. I agree that the Jesuits (probably more so the Franciscans) did some modest silver mining in the area to produce candlesticks, etc., but this report is sort of, well, just plain silly isn't it?

　
Is it silly? I was not there to personally weigh this cross, if it existed, nor could I say with certainty that it was indeed solid gold and not gold leaf covering a wooden cross. Considering the opulence of the silver altar service, which was still visible at least as late as 1862 but today is missing, is that SO farfetched?

　
How much gold and silver were actually produced by the mining operations of the Spanish colonial period? The Jesuits, Franciscans, Dominicans and others did not report their productions. In fact we have only fragmentary records of the Spanish productions. That example of looting/pillaging you cited, occurred long before Columbus reached the Americas and the fantastic productions of precious metals that followed. How much gold or silver were shipped out of Mexico annually, during the period of say, 1680 to 1767? Or even later, under Franciscan operation of the missions, can we say exactly how much they were able to extract from the rocks and placers?

Here is what a visitor to the cathedral in Mexico city wrote, some years after the padres fall from grace:

"I hope Mr Nugent," laughed the padre as we turned into the cathedral. " that you cannot say with Sir John Falstaff, And I have not forgotten what the inside of a church is made of, I am a peppercorn. This is our cathedral It was once rich in treasure the offerings of the faithful. A paternal government has robbed it and left it poor indeed. I carry in my memory an inventory of its riches. You may probably be interested to hear what this glorious cathedral was at one time enabled to adorn its altars with." "Very much indeed padre." "We had six chandeliers in solid gold, a golden cup, the body and pedestal inlaid with precious stones, a golden filagree cross, six gold bouquets frosted with diamonds, twenty gorgeous chalices, six golden wine and water ewers with golden trays, a pyx that weighed one hundred and four ounces of gold and covered with diamonds to the number of nearly seventeen hundred, a golden chalice, eighty four ounces inlaid with a hundred and twenty diamonds and as many emeralds and rubies, many golden censers and tw i silver statues life size of the Mother of God Our principal censer that stood one yard from the ground was studded with nearly six thousand diamonds three thousand emeralds over a hundred amethysts forty rubies and eight sapphires and its weigh was seven hundred and four ounces We also had eleven golden lustres of twenty four branches each four golden perfume stands standing three yards high besides minor articles of considerable value. These Mr Nugent all used for the beautifying of His house were taken by sacrilegious wretches who have forced themselves into high places melted into money and that money has been spent in the vilest manner it is possible to conceive. We made a tour of the splendid cathedral its five naves chapels and six grand altars. We visited the where we were shown the superb vestments presented by monarchs of Spain. One set is so heavy with bullion it amounts to a physical impossibility to celebrate Mass wearing it. The panels if I may use the term scenes in the life of our Lord are so exquisitely worked in silk the hues so delicately interwoven that they resemble much more than needlework and the colors are as as the day they left the Old World for the New.

Catholic World, pp 783-784 Sept 1880

　
Is it not also a possibility, that an error has crept in through the translation of Spanish to English? For example, if he were told it weighed five quintals, and thought quintals meant tons. On the other hand, if it were just a wooden cross, gilded with gold leaf or painted gold, it would not make sense that any effort would have been made to extract it to Mexico.

As to the whole issue of "secret" mines and mining, it is not a case of black and white. The mines are not SO close to the missions that they could not be operated without notice by visitors to the missions except in rare instances. Some of the mines are considerable distances from the missions, one example is over 100 miles from the mission it was associated with. Some mining was obviously noticed by the Spaniards, as with the Baja gold mines or the rich silver mines complained about by bishop Palafox. Virtually all of the religious Orders were engaged in mining, as well as agriculture, fishing, you name it even the slave trade. There is a reason why the repeated Spanish crown orders against 'religious' having mines did not specify Jesuits.

 

[deducer]

deducer,

I think I explained my reasoning quite well:

"The main reason for the belief for that, is the great number of constant visitations to the missions, and the inordinate searching for precious metals by........others. Those others knew where to search for gold and silver. History tells us that the Jesuits placed their missions near plentiful water supplies, natives for conversion and mines that needed priests to tend to the needs of the miners and the people who were required to support those endeavors."

If I need to make the reasons for my beliefs plainer, it would be the historical (recorded) movements through Mexico, a great deal of which was being done by folks who were not fans of the Jesuit Order. In other words, the missions had a great many visitors who came and went on their own schedules.

If, as some think, the Jesuits worked mines close to their missions, the danger of exposure would have been heightened by prospectors and visitors.

As I have said, it's just my opinion based on the history I have read and the lack of success for the many treasure hunters who have searched since the order was expelled.

As I have also mentioned before, the Spanish, themselves, were very poor at keeping secrets during that era.

Sorry if that's not enough of an explanation, as it's really all I have, and all anyone else has. Opinion.

Good luck,

Joe

Not all missions received heavy traffic, and especially not the satellite missions and vistas.

And knowing the Jesuits to be very skillful in concealment, it is not altogether unrealistic to have mines close by or within reasonable distance that had the means to be covered up quickly should any visitors be spotted on the horizon by any of the Pima sentries stationed around the missions.

The same would have been done in the event of an Apache attack which was a far worse danger.

Said visitors/prospectors would not be a danger unless they knew to look for something, and how many of them would know? Even if they suspected something, it would be quite time-consuming to zero in on the mines, being that many of these mines were quite small, and their tailings scattered to the winds.

 

[sdcfia]

<cut>
Is it not also a possibility, that an error has crept in through the translation of Spanish to English? For example, if he were told it weighed five quintals, and thought quintals meant tons. On the other hand, if it were just a wooden cross, gilded with gold leaf or painted gold, it would not make sense that any effort would have been made to extract it to Mexico.

Absolutely! IMO, this is exactly the problem with the greatly exaggerated legends. For example, you take a gilded wooden cross with a couple pounds of gold on it and someone assumes it's solid gold and another guy figures it weighs five tons. I suspect that many of the "lost Jesuit caches", "lost treasures" and "fabulous lost mines" as reported in the old newspapers and more recent adventure magazines and internet sites are likewise greatly exaggerated tales based on much more modest truths. It makes for sensational "news", but ... It makes things difficult when you're trying to separate the wheat from the chaff.

 

[Oroblanco]

Absolutely! IMO, this is exactly the problem with the greatly exaggerated legends. For example, you take a gilded wooden cross with a couple pounds of gold on it and someone assumes it's solid gold and another guy figures it weighs five tons. I suspect that many of the "lost Jesuit caches", "lost treasures" and "fabulous lost mines" as reported in the old newspapers and more recent adventure magazines and internet sites are likewise greatly exaggerated tales based on much more modest truths. It makes for sensational "news", but ... It makes things difficult when you're trying to separate the wheat from the chaff.

While I agree that exaggeration is rampant in lost treasures and lost mines, I am not entirely in agreement that we are always dealing with "GREATLY" exaggerated values.

An example, the $40,000 worth of silver of the San Xavier del Bac mission. Not 40 million, not 40 billion, but forty thousand. Does that sound like it is so greatly exaggerated to you?

I don't think San Xavier del Bac, Guevavi, Tumacacori, Arivaca or any of the missions/visitas in what is Arizona today, were visited by Spaniards all that much. Even so, there is record of the use of secret chambers; example:

The pulpits in the cathedral attracted me very much they are of onyx or Puebla marble quaintly carved each pulpit being chiselled out of a single block. In the choir which is panelled in carved oak, I opened a book of chants it was of vellum illuminated and bore date 1690. On leaving the choir we crossed into a side chapel and through a secret door that swung lazily open upon the pressing of to us an invisible button entered a low ceilinged and somewhat gloomy apartment in which hung the portraits of the archbishops taken from life and in their archiepiscopal robes. A great oaken coffer bound with quaint brass clamps used for the keeping of the coin of the cathedral occupied one corner and in another stood a great oaken table over three hundred years old upon which the offerings of the faithful used to be counted. There were no banks in those days, laughed the padre nor machinery for counting money. It was all done in the simplest manner. The church received its portion the clergy theirs, and the poor the lion's share. The portion for the use of the cathedral was dropped through this hole thrusting his hand into an orifice in the table and through this spout into yon strongbox.

Catholic World, Vol 31, pp 784-785

Was this chamber searched in the expulsion of 1767? We can never know.



Arizona was the 'far frontier' of Spanish colonial America, not really populated with Spanish colonists even as well as Texas or New Mexico of the same time period.

These are the twenty nine Missions with seventy three towns and several ranches of Christian Indians. Three towns and two ranches are inhabited by Jovas and are visiting places of Opata Missions, twenty seven belong to the Opatas with some Eudebes partly mixed and form with the Jovas eleven Missions. Ten towns in four Missions belong to Eudebes alone. The Pimas of the low country dwell in fourteen towns and constitute six Missions, those of the high country live in twenty two towns making eight Missions. In these Missions there is not any place which is or may be called the head of all. The Mission whichever it may be where the Father resides who has been appointed by his Superiors to govern them under the title of Visitor is the head one of all during the three years of the rule of such Father and thither people direct themselves as the seat of the Superior of all the Missionaries of this Province.

<from Rudo Ensayo>

These Indians were quite literally "ruled" by the padres, and there were instances in which mines were discovered and attracted the Spanish, as at the "planchas de plata" deposit, which certainly seems to have irked the Jesuits. Even father Segesser refers to this episode and wryly remarked how he had not discovered this treasure, for he was out saving souls.

 

[deducer]

Even so, there is record of the use of secret chambers; example:

The pulpits in the cathedral attracted me very much they are of onyx or Puebla marble quaintly carved each pulpit being chiselled out of a single block. In the choir which is panelled in carved oak, I opened a book of chants it was of vellum illuminated and bore date 1690. On leaving the choir we crossed into a side chapel and through a secret door that swung lazily open upon the pressing of to us an invisible button entered a low ceilinged and somewhat gloomy apartment in which hung the portraits of the archbishops taken from life and in their archiepiscopal robes. A great oaken coffer bound with quaint brass clamps used for the keeping of the coin of the cathedral occupied one corner and in another stood a great oaken table over three hundred years old upon which the offerings of the faithful used to be counted. There were no banks in those days, laughed the padre nor machinery for counting money. It was all done in the simplest manner. The church received its portion the clergy theirs, and the poor the lion's share. The portion for the use of the cathedral was dropped through this hole thrusting his hand into an orifice in the table and through this spout into yon strongbox.

Catholic World, Vol 31, pp 784-785

Was this chamber searched in the expulsion of 1767? We can never know.

Roy,

The Jesuit penchant for skillful concealment goes back over 100 years prior to their entry into the new world.

An interesting example: Harvington Hall

Harvington Hall was built around 1580 by Humphrey Pakington, who remodelled an earlier medieval house. It was presumably Pakington who built the priest holes into the house, probably using the services of Nicholas Owen, a master builder working for Father Henry Garnett, the Jesuit superior in England.

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

The Jesuit penchant for skillful concealment goes back over 100 years prior to their entry into the new world.

An interesting example: Harvington Hall



View attachment 1173866

That is pretty interesting, especially considering what Garnett was involved with. Secret chambers and passageways are also reported for the missions of Arizona too:

As a closing word it may be well to mention the underground passages. Most missions of early date possessed secret passages as a means of escape in case they were besieged. It is difficult to locate any of them now as they are well concealed or fallen in. San Diego mission has an underground passage of very ingenious arrangement leading perhaps from some room in the mission to the well at the foot of the hill. Its entrance has never been sought for and it has for the most part fallen in as can be found by exploring from the well. The passage led underground to the well opening into the side several yards below the level of the grade. The padres could then go and fetch water without being seen by a hostile band of Indians. Across the well the passage continued some distance further and made an exit in a group of palm trees planted by the fathers. Hence in the time of great danger the padres would enter the passage leap across the well and escape by the exit at a considerable distance from the mission. The mission at an early date was destroyed and several of the fathers escaped by this means. Tumacacori is said to have had a passage and the story goes that there was an iron door leading to it in the garden.

Mission Architecture as Examplified in San Xavier Del Bac, pp 45

I have often wondered if Don Jose had found any sign of these at Tayopa, it seems almost a certainty there must be at least one such escape tunnel, which may also have a treasure vault or room.

 

[sdcfia]

While I agree that exaggeration is rampant in lost treasures and lost mines, I am not entirely in agreement that we are always dealing with "GREATLY" exaggerated values.

An example, the $40,000 worth of silver of the San Xavier del Bac mission. Not 40 million, not 40 billion, but forty thousand. Does that sound like it is so greatly exaggerated to you?
<cut>

I don't know. When we read about a five ton solid gold cross, massive lost gold caches, etc - the accumulation of this gold being attributed to the Southern Arizona Jesuits using unskilled labor under the noses of the Spanish military at Tubac - well, it's tough to know what to believe. I know we've had this discussion before and it's no use repeating allegations that the gold is still hidden and forgotten by the brothers, the military was inept, etc. Those arguments lack support, and considering the "exaggeration factor", can't be validated with "what if" logic. Others' results may vary.

To me, it's plain that the Jesuits likely did locate a few modest silver mines in the area and refined the ore for use in producing church paraphernalia. Some of these mines were also likely Franciscan, misidentified as Jesuit. I will add this - I suspect that the Jesuits may possess knowledge about sites of great historic/economic value in the Southwest that has not appeared in the old correspondence or the modern legends.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Oro de Tayopa posted ---- I have often wondered if Don Jose had found any sign of these at Tayopa, it seems almost a certainty there must be at least one such escape tunnel, which may also have a treasure vault or room.

##########################

Did, in the floor of the mission above , leading down to the workings exiting through the main portal. Lower area still closed because of the possibility fo bad air. We are looking for external indications to the main portal now, geochem kit will be used.

Reverse engineering you might say

You asked me once about this regarding an escape route, I partially answered you at that time..

 

[deducer]

deducer,

One other thing.......When you offer an opinion, based on written history, that history is all the proof that is needed.

Joe

Written history is still subjective, and is what is culturally and socially acceptable. For example, the version of WWII taught in Soviet schools are much different than what is taught in schools here.

And along this line of thinking, one can only imagine what was lost forever when JHI merged with UA to form what would come to be the DRSW, under the supervision of Charles Polzer who undoubtedly realized (and relished) the opportunity to re-edit Jesuit history in the Southwest, especially as the DRSW grew and absorbed or merged with other university collections; your proverbial fox supervising the henhouse.

My opinion isn't based just on written history, but on a combination of many things, including putting foot on ground, and walking in the footsteps of the Jesuits. As I was told many times, "you have to think like a Jesuit."

They had the means, motive, and definitely the opportunity.

 

[cactusjumper]

Written history is still subjective, and is what is culturally and socially acceptable. For example, the version of WWII taught in Soviet schools are much different than what is taught in schools here.

And along this line of thinking, one can only imagine what was lost forever when JHI merged with UA to form what would come to be the DRSW, under the supervision of Charles Polzer who undoubtedly realized (and relished) the opportunity to re-edit Jesuit history in the Southwest, especially as the DRSW grew and absorbed or merged with other university collections; your proverbial fox supervising the henhouse.

My opinion isn't based just on written history, but on a combination of many things, including putting foot on ground, and walking in the footsteps of the Jesuits. As I was told many times, "you have to think like a Jesuit."

They had the means, motive, and definitely the opportunity.

deducer,

IMHO, your entire post is "subjective". It is based on your opinion, no matter what methodology you have used to reach those opinions.

Father Polzer is an accepted authority on Jesuit history. Your own expertise is based on your apparent conviction that you can "think like a Jesuit", because you have walked some of the same trails that they did. I have no wish to get into a pissing match with you over who has delved deepest into Jesuit thinking and history.

Did you just put your feet in the dirt of Mexico, or did you really look into the Jesuit mindset? How familiar are you with the Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius?

Do you know who said, "The Society wants men who are as accomplished as possible in every discipline that helps it in its purpose. Can you become a good logician? Then become one! A good theologian? Then become one! The same for being a good humanist, and for all the other disciplines that can serve our Institute.....and do not be satisfied with doing it half-way!"

That is an important part of how a Jesuit thinks.

Father Polzer had a deep respect for history. Before you accuse such a man of wanting to "re-edit Jesuit history in the Southwest", you should establish your own qualifications. Right now, I am unimpressed.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Oroblanco]

I don't know. When we read about a five ton solid gold cross, massive lost gold caches, etc - the accumulation of this gold being attributed to the Southern Arizona Jesuits using unskilled labor under the noses of the Spanish military at Tubac - well, it's tough to know what to believe. I know we've had this discussion before and it's no use repeating allegations that the gold is still hidden and forgotten by the brothers, the military was inept, etc. Those arguments lack support, and considering the "exaggeration factor", can't be validated with "what if" logic. Others' results may vary.

To me, it's plain that the Jesuits likely did locate a few modest silver mines in the area and refined the ore for use in producing church paraphernalia. Some of these mines were also likely Franciscan, misidentified as Jesuit. I will add this - I suspect that the Jesuits may possess knowledge about sites of great historic/economic value in the Southwest that has not appeared in the old correspondence or the modern legends.

Well I sure don't want to try to tell you what to believe.

What we do have in this subject however, are a group of legends of lost mines and a few treasures; almost all are attributed to the Jesuits but not all. Not every mission has such a legend either. The Jesuits certainly did operate in the area for some seventy years (and more, according to several padres writing prior to 1767) and several mines were later found by American prospectors, often through the help of friendly Indians and/or documents they claimed they found in the missions, attributing the mines to the Jesuits. The slag left at one tested fairly high in silver and gold, meaning that despite the simple or primitive extraction methods available, the original ore must have been considerably richer.

We have a mass of circumstantial evidence pointing to the Jesuits mining in the southwest, and even one rather dammin' statement in a private letter from a Jesuit in that period. We also have the record of the Spanish making some effort to find the wealth they were apparently convinced that the Jesuits had amassed and hidden, with only limited success in finding it. I don't see what is so unbelievable about this, except where misconceptions on the part of treasure hunters might be interpreting things. As an example, the "massive' treasures or fantastically rich mines, these are not what the evidence points to and it seems that some of this magnification may be on the part of the readers, not in the writing. It is well to remember that the padres were really the first 'prospectors' in the field, and surface deposits can often be very rich. Some of the documented mines in Arizona have been very rich indeed, so I fail to see what is so unbelievable that the padres, with the help of friendly Indians, could have found some very nice mines that might well fit the 'fantastically rich' description, and yet still not require a vast mining operation to extract the bullion.

On the other hand we do NOT have legends that have no basis at all, like for instance we don't have a legend of a lost Capuchin monks diamond mine or the lost treasure of the Cathars hidden in the Superstitions. We also don't have a record of a lot of Spanish or Mexican mining operations in Arizona either, there was some but not as much as in say New Mexico. I do not understand why the Jesuit mining has been given this whitewash treatment, even to complete denials it ever happened. Mining was only one of the many commercial enterprises the Jesuits (and Franciscans, and Dominicans etc) were undertaking to make the mission system self supporting. They were required to make the missions self supporting. The mines may have been legally titled to a college or a mission, or to the Indians although I doubt this as the Indians were not allowed to own property, nor do business without the padres handling it. The fact you can actually go to some of the mines of the Jesuits today, like the Salero or the Wandering Jew and others, just as you can go to the Silver King mine, seems like very solid proof to me but apparently for some people the fact you can do this means nothing.

Silver mines produce silver, and gold mines produce gold - yet very little of these seem to have been shipped out by the Jesuits. We know they had issues with thieving even in there own numbers, the obvious solution would be to store the bullion until safe and secure methods of shipping could be devised, which plan got upended with the expulsion. Where is the silver and gold?

Lastly but I find it rather queer (and I don't mean gay) that we have had a regular string of Jesuits here on a treasure forum, always doing their best to discourage anyone from not just searching for the treasures and mines but from even believing they ever existed. Why? If they never existed, what possible harm could there be for anyone to hunt for it? It is like trying to discourage someone from hunting for the Easter bunny, if there really is no treasure and no lost mines to be found. Yet there have been at least five Jesuits here on a treasure forum, usually not admitting they are Jesuit without a good deal of prodding, and arguing every conceivable angle to prevent anyone searching or even believing.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, and for the record, I do not trust father Polzer on the Jesuits at all. He certainly seems to be a very good historian on many other aspects, but the fact that he was a Jesuit, and we know that he was lying by omission about the mines of the Jesuits (thanks to the Catholic study) and followed the same pattern of ridicule and discouragement to treasure hunters, in my view he can not be trusted. Sorry if this seems harsh or offensive and were we talking of the Spanish military operations of the 1600s or almost any other subject than the Jesuits, I have no problem in trusting Polzer. Joe pointed out their dedication, and they took oaths and swore obedience, including to defend their Order against all enemies (real and perceived) so even did we not know about the mines listed that he omitted mention of, he should be viewed as a biased source where the Jesuits are concerned. It could hardly be otherwise.

Oroblanco