JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[deducer]

Sorry for the extreme length of the debate, it was kind of necessary to get some of the evidence out. Things have gone quiet because most of our skeptics have apparently gotten bored and-or disgusted with the evidence presented, wanting to see something absolute, beyond the Catholic study which listed some mines owned by the Order and the letter from a Jesuit at San Xavier, sent to his brother, complaining that he could not work the mines in safety due to the danger of hostile Indians. I don't know what would convince our skeptics.

Roy,

Would you have a copy of that letter? Would love to see it.

This thread is dead because it's hidden in the Tumacacori forum so nobody will find it. I sent the mods a few emails on changing the name of the sub-forum to "Jesuit treasures" and none have been answered.

 

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[Oroblanco]

Roy,

Would you have a copy of that letter? Would love to see it.

This thread is dead because it's hidden in the Tumacacori forum so nobody will find it. I sent the mods a few emails on changing the name of the sub-forum to "Jesuit treasures" and none have been answered.

Perhaps if enough members request the name change? Maybe if everyone who reads/posts here were to ask?

That letter was father Segesser writing to his brother in Switzerland, a link was posted here a while ago but the whole collection is online at:
Introduction to Philipp Segesser's Letters (in English Translation | Dr. Albrecht Classen


I did not find the specific letter (yet) it is in that collection, but anyway perhaps it will jog your memory that Cactusjumper took issue with the English translation of the shopping list item Segesser (stationed for some time at San Xavier in Arizona) of a "crow bar" in the same letter where he had just explained how there were practically NO rocks in their crop fields. Segesser also mentioned (early in his time at San Xavier) that he was in the "silver mountains" and yet they had few silver eating utensils. Considering there were practically NO Spanish colonists in the area at the time, the only logical miners were the Indians, under Jesuit directions. I thought that letter in which he complained that he could not readily work the mines due to the hostile Indians was pretty 'dammin'.

Segesser also has several other statements that clearly hint at mining/wealth, like his reference to his desire to send a "golden ball" to another padre whom was elderly and living in penury, which brought to mind the reports of Spanish authorities finding the balls of gold they found coated in chocolate, being shipped out of Mexico by the Jesuits to Jesuits in Spain, and chocolate was one of the most popular items being shipped around by Jesuits. In another letter Segesser mentions how a gold mine has been discovered near a Jesuit mission (and remember their missions were largely among Indians, not Spaniards) and states this will improve the finances of the mission.

I suspect that our skeptics/apologists are not interested in participating, from some of the comments posted previously, like referring to the numerous posts and evidence as "evidence" in quotes, implying it is hardly fit for that term, and others are just "thrown against the literary wall to see if it will stick". Modern historians state there never were any Jesuit treasures or mines, and that seals it for our skeptics.

 

[deducer]

I see that the name of this sub-forum has been changed to "Jesuit Treasures" so thanks to the mods.

The subheading still reads: "Treasures of Tumacacori legend from the city by the same name and Tumacacori Mountains south of Tucson as well as the Lost Jesuit Mines."

Perhaps that could be changed to "Legends, lost mines, and hidden treasures of the Jesuits"?

 

[deducer]

Perhaps if enough members request the name change? Maybe if everyone who reads/posts here were to ask?

That letter was father Segesser writing to his brother in Switzerland, a link was posted here a while ago but the whole collection is online at:
Introduction to Philipp Segesser's Letters (in English Translation | Dr. Albrecht Classen


I did not find the specific letter (yet) it is in that collection, but anyway perhaps it will jog your memory that Cactusjumper took issue with the English translation of the shopping list item Segesser (stationed for some time at San Xavier in Arizona) of a "crow bar" in the same letter where he had just explained how there were practically NO rocks in their crop fields. Segesser also mentioned (early in his time at San Xavier) that he was in the "silver mountains" and yet they had few silver eating utensils. Considering there were practically NO Spanish colonists in the area at the time, the only logical miners were the Indians, under Jesuit directions. I thought that letter in which he complained that he could not readily work the mines due to the hostile Indians was pretty 'dammin'.

Segesser also has several other statements that clearly hint at mining/wealth, like his reference to his desire to send a "golden ball" to another padre whom was elderly and living in penury, which brought to mind the reports of Spanish authorities finding the balls of gold they found coated in chocolate, being shipped out of Mexico by the Jesuits to Jesuits in Spain, and chocolate was one of the most popular items being shipped around by Jesuits. In another letter Segesser mentions how a gold mine has been discovered near a Jesuit mission (and remember their missions were largely among Indians, not Spaniards) and states this will improve the finances of the mission.

I suspect that our skeptics/apologists are not interested in participating, from some of the comments posted previously, like referring to the numerous posts and evidence as "evidence" in quotes, implying it is hardly fit for that term, and others are just "thrown against the literary wall to see if it will stick". Modern historians state there never were any Jesuit treasures or mines, and that seals it for our skeptics.

I've been meaning to get that book of Segesser's letters, but knowing that Albrecht has been outspoken against the Jesuits having done any mining, I'm not hopeful of finding anything to that effect.

 

[Oroblanco]

I've been meaning to get that book of Segesser's letters, but knowing that Albrecht has been outspoken against the Jesuits having done any mining, I'm not hopeful of finding anything to that effect.

First thank you to our moderators, Jesuit Treasures is a very good title for all the threads under it. (kudos)

Second - I did not realize it but apparently almost the whole of the online translations at the link I posted have vanished. No trace of them, even in a Google cache. So I guess anyone interested will have to buy the book, but to refresh the memory for anyone interested, here are several extracts:

Here in the silver mountains there are hardly any silver spoons among us Fathers Missionaries, such as yesterday when I was called to Hímuri to another Father to discuss some business with the Honorable Capitan of this Pimería alta. We four at at the table had not more than two spoons, one fork, and one knife, the little salt was in a broken husk of a fruit. A Dios.

From a letter written shortly after Segesser had arrived at San Xavier del Bac mission - he is in the "silver mountains" yet has few silver eating utensils.

What I have requested from the Juncker Brother to have sent to me, I await to receive with the greatest desire. The Juncker Brother should not forget to deliver the shotguns, and perhaps one for the small birds built in the same manner, which would be very useful here insofar as the the same birds as in Europe, like the finches, are found here, particularly small pigeons, which no one either catchs or eats. Could the Juncker Brother also send me a little mold with a strong bottom or something like that where small pellets can be poured in. Here there is as much lead as silver.
One sugar scale, if available with yellow [brass] weights. And if possible, a gold scale, also with the weights.

and

Would the Juncker Brother cover everything that is out of iron with tallow, or, even better, cover it with chalk.
Tools out of iron [cont.]
2 little ladles
1 little roast spit
1 sugar scale
1 gold scale, if it is not too expensive

Two separate requests for a GOLD SCALE. Handy thing when you are running precious metals mines.

　
　
The many affairs, the constant couriers (in the year 1753, two reams of paper did not suffice to answer letters and to write new letters, so that I do not even find time for the breviary and other spiritual exercises), the ceaseless daily guests; among whom are the most important people of these provinces such as governors, local officials, military officers, all with very many servants, who use my mission without ever paying for even the smallest thing. All these exhaust me to such an extent that I frequently do not know where my head is. I must take care of and arrange everything that concerns kitchen, garden, fields, seedling box, cattle and horses, chickens, doves, geese, pigs, and mule. In a word, both church and household all depend on me. I can find no loyal servants in this land, because they quickly become arrogant and demand that the missionary wait on them. In addition they cost five to six hundred Spanish thalers, and that requires much sweat and toil to obtain.

Because of the constant unrest among the Indians, one cannot work in the silver and gold mines. Last week eighty Apache attacked and killed a pastor and seven servants who were traveling from his parish house to the home of a sick person to hear a confession. Apache on one side surround my mission, Seri on the other side. Also, some of the PIma are hostil and cause me very great damage.

<A Jesuit Missionary in Eighteenth-Century Sonora: The Family Correspondence, By Raymond H. Thompson
pp295-296>

I included the relevant context, so you can see that Segesser is clearly complaining about having to RUN EVERYTHING, and can't operate the mines as he wished. This puts to rest the idea that the padres were utterly innocent of the mining operations, they were the "managers" for everything done not just the care of the souls as the modern revisionists would have us believe. In fact from Segesser (and others) it becomes clear that the padres were so busy with their 'labors' as father Garces put it, that they were remiss in their duties of religion and education of their Indians. I think this amounts to the 'smoking gun' especially when considered along with the Catholic study The Wealth of the Jesuits in Mexico 1767 that lists mines owned openly by the Order, the mounds of smelting slag at several missions as well as built into the very mission walls (showing that the slag was available as a building material when the Franciscans were building the newer buildings) and the mass of other evidence from official US government documents to treasure stories obtained from Indians.


A bit hard to find but here is the listing on Amazon:
A Jesuit Missionary in Eighteenth-Century Sonora: The Family Correspondence of Philipp Segesser: Thompson Raymond H Dahlquist Robert E Zimmt Werner S: 9780826354259: Amazon.com: Books

 

[Oroblanco]

Dammitol but I forgot another point I wanted to make from Segesser's letter, he complains of the numerous visitors and their servants, always taking stuff and NEVER PAYING FOR IT! So how does this equate to the padres obtaining money/silver by SELLING supplies/foods when clearly the visitors to the missions were just helping themselves without paying at all?

 

[Oroblanco]

My memory must be getting worse and worse because I forgot yet another point from father Segesser's letters, mentioned in the extract in post #3378. Namely that bit on how few silver eating utensils he found available, despite living in the "silver mountains" implying that while silver itself was plentiful enough, actual usable silver utensils were scarce.

The point I had intended to raise regards a treasure "legend" involving the visit of a Bishop who toured the missions around this same time, and he too found that silver utensils were scarce - in fact they had but a single salt cellar for the whole party eating at the Bishop's table. Segesser mentions that their salt cellar (in his letter) was a broken husk of a fruit. The treasure "legend" holds that the padres were upset by the Bishop's comment and dispatched Indians to locate a silver deposit right away, and sure enough they found a vein of silver and during the night a silver salt cellar was made from it. The salt cellar was later given to the Bishop, who sent it to Spain, but the mine became known as the Salero mine. <Salero means "salt cellar" named for the item resulting in its original discovery> You can actually go to the Salero mine today (if you get permission of course) so this is one of the examples where you can literally stand in the mine of the legend, because it was rediscovered and worked by the Anglos. Segesser is providing circumstantial evidence in support of that "legend".

Like most of our good treasure legends, the Salero story exists in at least three different versions, with enough variations to raise doubts for our skeptics as they do not like to see any details in a story wrong. So the story is set at three different locations (Tubac, Tumacacori, and San Xavier del Bac) with two different bishops (Crespi and Reyes, whose visit did not even occur during the time when the Jesuits were in Mexico) but anyway this story should not be classed as impossible by any means.

Please do continue, I have to sign off for now.

 

[somehiker]

Dammitol but I forgot another point I wanted to make from Segesser's letter, he complains of the numerous visitors and their servants, always taking stuff and NEVER PAYING FOR IT! So how does this equate to the padres obtaining money/silver by SELLING supplies/foods when clearly the visitors to the missions were just helping themselves without paying at all?

Two possibilities Roy....

That Segessor's complaining that so many visitors to the mission expected the supplies for nothing.
In some cases perhaps, even leaving without paying.
I've been in business and know what he's talking about.
I don't know if the Jesuits were officially allowed to operate a business selling supplies such as tallow and meat, since they were sponsored by the Crown.
But if they were, in a black market sense, they would certainly be open to such a form of extortion.

A second possibility and related to the first, is that in his letter he has thus accounted for "missing inventory". This of course, having been taken by those ungrateful Spanish ranchers and miners.

Regards:SH.

 

[Leones Corazon]

Something i have found strange and has set my mind to wander a bit as of late. I am slowly reading "My life among the savage nations of new spain." by Andres Perez De Ribas. The book was written in 1644 and is a wealth of knowledge about the day to day life and building of new spain. At the time all military actions were controlled by the church no less if i am reading this correctly. The Cpt General appointed by said church of Sinaloa was one don Diego Martinez de Hurdaide, whom was an amazing man in what he was able to accomplish with 50 soldiers. Anyways most of what i have read transpired around 1609-11. I found it quite interesting that De Ribas mentions several times that in dealing with the natives the soldiers horses had armor. Not a big deal if you did not realize iron was very pricey in those times and only those who came from wealth were able to afford it. Since Hurdaide worked for the church and not the crown...i would have to surmise the church had deeper pockets than the crown...
Although i have no idea what said armor was made of...i do believe most foot soldiers of the time had morions and were lucky to have a leather armor if i am correct as iron breast plates there again were pricey. I hope at some point to be able to figure out what the equestrian armor was made of. I am betting steel because the good padre notes the soldiers ditched their equestrian armor as it slowed the horses down and they were actively being chased by pissed off natives...

DW

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

All quite true. Nothing stating that Segessar or his people were involved in mining. It's also true that the Jesuits tried to place their missions close to mines. They did that to serve the miners and the people required to support them, including families. For me, all of the things you have noted, could be read to mean that Segessar was involved in mining, if you believe that from the jump.

I don't, so I read it the other way.

Hope all is well,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Two possibilities Roy....

That Segessor's complaining that so many visitors to the mission expected the supplies for nothing.
In some cases perhaps, even leaving without paying.
I've been in business and know what he's talking about.
I don't know if the Jesuits were officially allowed to operate a business selling supplies such as tallow and meat, since they were sponsored by the Crown.
But if they were, in a black market sense, they would certainly be open to such a form of extortion.

A second possibility and related to the first, is that in his letter he has thus accounted for "missing inventory". This of course, having been taken by those ungrateful Spanish ranchers and miners.

Regards:SH.

Segesser repeatedly complains of the numerous visitors to his mission in several letters over the years, and always the same complaint, that they eat and take things without ever offering to pay for what they are taking. This does not match up well with the theory of the missions "selling" supplies to visitors.


Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,

All quite true. Nothing stating that Segessar or his people were involved in mining. It's also true that the Jesuits tried to place their missions close to mines. They did that to serve the miners and the people required to support them, including families. For me, all of the things you have noted, could be read to mean that Segessar was involved in mining, if you believe that from the jump.

I don't, so I read it the other way.

Hope all is well,

All is well here, if a bit more busy than I like - however it sounds like you have been having it rough. I hope you find what caused that latest episode and are able to do something about it. It may have been one of those 'shot across the bow' type things.

Considering the context, and the other passage in which he mentions that a gold mine has been discovered near his mission which he expects will enrich his mission, not to mention the half dozen crowbars, gold scales, being in the 'silver mountains' etc and the fact that the Jesuits owned and operated some mines openly (yet these are never mentioned by our apologists) and in conjunction with Nentvig's description that includes mines in Arizona, the slag mounds and in walls etc I don't see how we can read it that Segesser is NOT involved in mining at his missions. In fact I think we have the proverbial 'smoking gun' that locks with all the rest. What do you suppose that "golden ball" was that Segesser was considering sending to his padre friend?

Take care Joe, I hope you are feeling a lot better.
Roy

 

[Oroblanco]

Forgot to include that passage from Segesser's letters, about the discovery of a gold mine near his mission:

In the meantime few events have occurred that would be worth to be reported, except that not far from here a goldmine was discovered. They say that it is very rich. May God grant that this will be true. Then this mission will recover a little, after it has, as I have told you previously, suffered many losses because of the constant unrests by the hostile neighbors and because of the need to entertain guests and soldiers who either stay here or pass through. Apart from that, I am busy to create some security for this mission church and the houses by means of the remains of the previous constructions. I try to erect a good ring wall with a gate and thus to secure everything, especially to prevent that the hostile Indians do not burn down everything to ashes, which is the first thing which they usually do.

Now remember Nentvig, writing years after Segesser

From Tucson we must trek thirty leagues south to reach the royal presidio of Tubac where we can rest and then proceed to Tumacacori, one league south, and then to Calabazas;[SUP]40[/SUP] both are dependent missions of Guebavi,[SUP]41[/SUP] the main mission located at 32 degrees, 28 minutes latitude by 263 degrees, 12 minutes longitude. It is administered by Father Custodio Jimeno who is also in charge of the dependent missions. These are Sonoitac, ten leagues to the northeast; Calabazas, four leagues to the north; and Tumacacori, seven leagues to the northwest. There was a fourth mission: Aribaca, twelve leagues to the northwest, that was destroyed in the 1751 uprising. There are several silver mines and one gold mine in the vicinity of Guebavi, but they are not being worked.

Who or whom do you say was the owner/operator of those mines? We have a number of sources among early Americans that stated they discovered mines of the Jesuits in this part of Arizona, and in several cases from documents found in the missions (which unfortunately we no longer have). Thanks in advance.

 

[Oroblanco]

And that request for the crow bars,

If the Juncker Brother has not yet sent the requested items, would you please add also: 6 scissors to shear sheep, of which I have half a dozen. Item[Latin: also] good, strong, round and flat crow bars, ca. half a dozen, of every kind, also smaller ones. Item [Latin: also]. A dozen whetting stones. Item. 2 or four hatchets or picks. Item. 2 gardening knives Item. 12 small pie moulds.

and that the crow bars arrived fine;

Only the objects out of iron wrapped in leather were affected a little by rust. By contrast, the crow-bars that had been wrapped, have reached me without any damage. The abgesicht [perhaps the sight?] of the larger rifle has fallen off because it had not been attached to the barrel like it should have been. Instead it had only been soldered on to it. Here it can hardly be reattached.

San Xavier del Bac is still in existence. It is a mission church of great size and beauty, magnificently ornamented within ; $40,000 in solid silver served to adorn the altar

<American Geographic Society 1857>


and again, Segesser:

Here there is as much lead as silver.

now Mowry:

Empire or Montezuma Mine: I have mentioned above this mine as forming a part of the Santa Cruz Sierra. It is half way between the Mowry Mine and the town of Santa Cruz. The ores are composed of lead and silver composed The first owners were Gardner and Hopkins who it seems sold their interest out to New York companies Santa Rita Mining Company The Sierra de la Santa Rita as that of the Santa Cruz incloses rich deposits of precious ores The Cazada Florida and Salero Mines are united in one company under the above title The last one was known a long while ago and was worked by the Jesuits In that one also the argentiferous galena dominates. Shortly furnaces will be put up for smelting and reducing they will be erected on the very mountains of Santa Rita which are to the east of Tubac at the distance of about ten miles

<Mowry, Arizona and Sonora, pp 79>

 

[Oroblanco]

Last bit and I have to sign off for the night, but let me ask this question for anyone:

If the mines listed by Nentvig in Rudo Ensayo under the chapter for the Jesuit missions are not their own, then why did he include a separate chapter for the Spanish mines and settlements, and make it a point to specifically state when a mine was owned by Spaniards if it were near a mission district?

9.2. Mining Camps and Settlements of Spaniards

So that we may not omit any point worthy of attention, we will take a look at Basochuca real where a few poor Spaniards are unable to work the several mines in its vicinity

.

Then remember what father Kino wrote about the Indians offering to "buy" a padre from the proceeds of their silver mines, and that Indians were not allowed to own property - all property at the missions (and their districts) were "managed" and controlled physically and really by the padres not the Indians. Thanks in advance;
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Last bit and I have to sign off for the night, but let me ask this question for anyone:

If the mines listed by Nentvig in Rudo Ensayo under the chapter for the Jesuit missions are not their own, then why did he include a separate chapter for the Spanish mines and settlements, and make it a point to specifically state when a mine was owned by Spaniards if it were near a mission district?

.

Then remember what father Kino wrote about the Indians offering to "buy" a padre from the proceeds of their silver mines, and that Indians were not allowed to own property - all property at the missions (and their districts) were "managed" and controlled physically and really by the padres not the Indians. Thanks in advance;
Oroblanco

Hi Roy,

You have convinced me that there was some Jesuit mining in Mexico. I think I have said that before.

The Jesuit Order had many enemies around the world and probably double the norm in Mexico. All were busy looking for any excuse to bend the king's ear against the order. I still maintain that any secret mining would have been very difficult for them to pull off.

The main reason for that belief for that is the great number of constant visitations to the missions, and the inordinate searching for precious metals by........others. Those others knew where to search for gold and silver. History tells us that the Jesuits placed their missions near plentiful water supplies, natives for conversion and mines that needed priests to tend to the needs of the miners and the people who were required to support those endeavors.

That being said, I still have doubts that every utterance of a Jesuit that mentioned silver or gold meant they were involved in mining. I seem to remember, somewhere in the dim past, reading that they were tasked by the king to record the financial dealings of some of the mines. Must admit I have little desire to dig through my library to find that mentioning.

As I'm sure you remember, I was seeking "Jesuit" treasure for many years. Even though I no longer believe in those treasures as a common occurrence, I have to admit a grudging fondness for the genre.

I wish you good luck and a golden future.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Hi Roy,

You have convinced me that there was some Jesuit mining in Mexico. I think I have said that before.

The Jesuit Order had many enemies around the world and probably double the norm in Mexico. All were busy looking for any excuse to bend the king's ear against the order. I still maintain that any secret mining would have been very difficult for them to pull off.

The main reason for that belief for that is the great number of constant visitations to the missions, and the inordinate searching for precious metals by........others. Those others knew where to search for gold and silver. History tells us that the Jesuits placed their missions near plentiful water supplies, natives for conversion and mines that needed priests to tend to the needs of the miners and the people who were required to support those endeavors.

That being said, I still have doubts that every utterance of a Jesuit that mentioned silver or gold meant they were involved in mining. I seem to remember, somewhere in the dim past, reading that they were tasked by the king to record the financial dealings of some of the mines. Must admit I have little desire to dig through my library to find that mentioning.

As I'm sure you remember, I was seeking "Jesuit" treasure for many years. Even though I no longer believe in those treasures as a common occurrence, I have to admit a grudging fondness for the genre.

I wish you good luck and a golden future.

Take care,

Joe

Well I am not that sure the mining operations were really "secret" at all, just not broadcast. There are a number of references to the padres desire to keep Spanish colonists OUT of the mission districts, which hints at keeping the mines not secret but not spread like the California gold rush, or the Arizonac silver rush. In other words QUIET mining not "secret" per se.

I am having trouble reading that paragraph and sentence, in a way that does not link the Jesuits with mining. Let me break it down sentence by sentence:

The many affairs, the constant couriers (in the year 1753, two reams of paper did not suffice to answer letters and to write new letters, so that I do not even find time for the breviary and other spiritual exercises), the ceaseless daily guests; among whom are the most important people of these provinces such as governors, local officials, military officers, all with very many servants, who use my mission without ever paying for even the smallest thing.

Segesser is buried in work, has an endless stream of visitors who use "his" mission without ever paying - right? Am I getting this sentence interpreted correctly? Next:

All these exhaust me to such an extent that I frequently do not know where my head is. I must take care of and arrange everything that concerns kitchen, garden, fields, seedling box, cattle and horses, chickens, doves, geese, pigs, and mule.

Segesser complains that he must manage everything. Correct?

In a word, both church and household all depend on me.

Segesser is saying that every operation is dependent on himself, right?

I can find no loyal servants in this land, because they quickly become arrogant and demand that the missionary wait on them.

Segesser can not find good hired managers, apparently had some bad experiences with hired foremen, correct?

In addition they cost five to six hundred Spanish thalers, and that requires much sweat and toil to obtain.

He tells us how much it would cost to hire a foreman or overseer, and that amount would take a lot of labor to come up with - right?

Because of the constant unrest among the Indians, one cannot work in the silver and gold mines.

This very next sentence, after saying that the cost of hiring an overseer would take much labor, tells us that due to the Indian troubles, "one" cannot work in the silver and gold mines. Right? If he is not talking about his OWN mines, to be worked by his OWN Indians, why would he bother to mention this at all? The very next sentence also links to this:

Last week eighty Apache attacked and killed a pastor and seven servants who were traveling from his parish house to the home of a sick person to hear a confession.

The Apaches killed a pastor and servants, while on religious duties. Correct?

Apache on one side surround my mission, Seri on the other side.

Segesser's mission is literally surrounded by enemies.

Also, some of the Pima are hostile and cause me very great damage.

Even some of the 'friendly' Indians are nearly as dangerous as the Apaches and Seris. Right?

This letter was written and sent from San Miguel de los Ures, April 28, 1754. What does father Nentvig tell us about Ures?

Finally we arrive at Ures, the head mission in charge of Father Andrés Michel since the death of Father Felipe Ségesser [September 28, 1761]. Its geographical position is 30 degrees latitude by 264 degrees, 20 minutes longitude. Its dependent mission, Santa Rosalía, is twelve leagues to the southwest. The real of San José de Gracia is seven leagues west, and the deserted real of Antúnez is six leagues northwest. San Miguel de Horcasitas is about ten leagues west of Ures, and Nacameri, the dependent mission of Opodepe, is six leagues northeast of Antúnez. Nacameri is inhabited by Eudebes, while the Indians in Opodepe are Pimas. Opodepe,[SUP]31[/SUP][SUP][/SUP] where we are going out of curiosity, at 30 degrees, 40 minutes latitude and 264 degrees, 3 minutes longitude, is six leagues almost due north of Nacameri.[SUP]32[/SUP][SUP][/SUP] One league north is the real

[page 98]

of San José,[SUP]33[/SUP][SUP][/SUP] and two leagues beyond, there used to be a settlement of gente de razón, breeders of cattle. The mission of Opodepe, ministered by the Rector Francisco Loaiza, has silver and gold mines within its district, the latter having the reputation of producing ore with the highest fineness, and I have seen a piece of gold without rocky mixture weighing seven ounces.

　
Notice that Nentvig specifically mentions the Real of San Jose', and that there was a settlement of 'gentlemen of reason' (gente de razon). If all these mines are really Spanish or 'gente de razon' then why does he bother to mention where some ARE, and others no mention?

I think a big part of our difficulties in this debate is on the issue of SCALE. There are treasure legends with almost ridiculous amounts of gold and silver involved, which would have left scars on the Earth like the Homestake mine if they were true. At the other end of the scale, the operations were more than what father Och described in his bit of copper picking (technically he was placer mining copper) for making some bells. Otherwise why should there be mounds of slag at the missions, which were apparently there when the Franciscans built the now-visible mission churches, so one could say this points to the smelting having occurred prior to the Franciscans arrival. The padres were running not just mines but also cattle raising, sheep, horses, mules, fields of corn and grain, had their own gardens to tend, making leather, just as Segesser (and at least one other padre) complained about, a whole community of various different business operations even including lending money like banks in some places.

I have never been able to trace the origins of the legend of Jesuit treasure and/or mines in the Superstitions. It seems to have cropped up after the Peralta story, perhaps from some treasure writer trying to mix together different stories as has happened all too often with treasure legends. If you should find the time to go through your rather impressive library, I would appreciate if you could locate the oldest story you know of, that refers to a Jesuit treasure and/or mine(s) in the Superstition mountains. Beth has made me pack up a big part of our own books while trying to get the interior done in the living room so only a few relevant books are handy (apparently I boxed up Unknown Arizona by Manje for example, as I looked for it yesterday) of course when that work is done I can search for myself but if you have the time and inclination I would appreciate it.



　

　
　

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

As I said, "The Jesuit Order had many enemies around the world and probably double the norm in Mexico. All were busy looking for any excuse to bend the king's ear against the order. I still maintain that any secret mining would have been very difficult for them to pull off."

"Why" is always an open ended question. It calls for conjecture, as proof is non-existent. I don't really have a dog in this fight, although I was raised Catholic, I am no fan of the religion. I have serious questions about Father Kino sleeping with young Indian boys.......for foot warmers.

Why the Jesuits said this or didn't say that is of no consequence to me. The vagaries of memory and recorded history leave many questions unanswered. Some will fill in the blanks to suit their own beliefs, much as you and I do. That leaves plenty of room for debate.

Also plenty of room for both of our opinions and maybe a few others as well.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

coadjuters

 

[Oroblanco]

coadjuters

I must respectfully disagree. At least not for every padre at every mission where mining was going on - look at how father Segesser complains, repeatedly, that he must manage EVERYTHING, that he cannot hire a trustworthy helper etc. If he had a coadjutor handling the mining, or cattle herding, or tending of crops, he would have less to complain of.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Some, like today, were chronic complainers