JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[gollum]

But the Map of Tumacacori has no mention of Jesuit Treasure anywhere on it.


Although the Jesuit Warlocks helped hide the mines and treasures for the most part all treasures / mines belonged to the Hacienda owners and the Kings of Spain.

At that time all men were very religious and the Maps were in religious settings of the Catholic Chruch.

So with that "Jesuit" analogy in mind (They worked for the Catholic Church ) we should put all of them under "King's and Hacienda Presidio Treasures".

Personally I would just leave it as it is.

Except for the fact that there was NEVER a presidio named Tumacacori. TUBAC was the presidio. San Jose de Tumacacori was originally only the visita for the Guevavi Mission. It eventually became a mission itself, but there was NEVER a Tumacacori Presidio.

So, if a treasure has anything to do with Tumacacori, it would be a church treasure (before 1767 it would be a Jesuit Treasure, and after 1767 it would be a Franciscan Treasure). Come on Bill, you live in Tucson! You could throw a rock and hit the Mission at Tumacacori!

Mike

 

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[deducer]

All the more reason to re-name this subforum.

 

[Azquester]

The Fact that the original Tumacacori was a walled Presidio down by the present day Calabasas long before the present day location of a mission vista with the same name tells the whole story!

No Mission Vista's were walled city compounds of any sort.

The very First Tumacacori Presidio was a round walled structure fortified for Indian attacks.

I have photo's of it from the Historical archives of Archaeology in Tucson.

I suspect they named the Mission Vista Tumacacori after the original Presidio was destroyed during an Indian uprising.

This was before Tubac or that other mission down by the border.

Were talking long, long ago. Before the Jesuit's were expelled.

After that we're talking Franciscan's naming everything differently.

 

[BILL96]

I guess that I have been out of touch for awhile but you are saying that tumacacori was originally a presidio and you have a photo ?. I would really like to see it if you don't mind posting it. I have never been able to find anything identifying tumacacori as a walled presidio.
Thanks
Bill

 

[Azquester]

I guess that I have been out of touch for awhile but you are saying that tumacacori was originally a presidio and you have a photo ?. I would really like to see it if you don't mind posting it. I have never been able to find anything identifying tumacacori as a walled presidio.
Thanks
Bill

Bill96,

I had to go back in my archives for this one. But in a nut shell this is what I just read from the Tubac city website about it's own History.

"a Spanish rancheria supporting Mission Tumacacori 3 miles to the south; a major Spanish Presidio which gave rise to Tubac"

Right off their site.

But the real designation was a walled "Rancheria" which I guess according to what I just posted was the Rancheria named San Cayentano of Tumacacori or Rancheria Presidio Tumacacori!

At some point in time when Father Kino was down there he added Vista Buildings inside the walled Rancheria which is the confusion people may have for calling it a "Vista" of the Guevavi Mission which it was not.

Either way the Tubac city website says it became a Presidio after the large successful Presidio named Tumacacori a short distance to the south.

View attachment 1143694

 

[Azquester]

Here's a map of some mines possibly connected to the Treasure of Tumacacori Map from the Historical Society in Tucson. It show Calabasas as the turning point for finding the "Mina De San Isbel" one of the mines from the Treasure Map of Tumacacori. Calabasas was the site of the original Rancheria Presidio Tumacacori.


View attachment 1143559

 

[Azquester]

I guess that I have been out of touch for awhile but you are saying that tumacacori was originally a presidio and you have a photo ?. I would really like to see it if you don't mind posting it. I have never been able to find anything identifying tumacacori as a walled presidio.
Thanks
Bill

Here's another view of the Rancheria walled Presidio of Tumacacori after the Indian houses were torn down and the Kino Vista Buildings were added in the walled compound.

View attachment 1143567

 

[Hal Croves]

Mike,

There is no argument that the Jesuits had gold and silver vestments in their mission churches. Since you know the Jesuit history so well, can you tell us how, other than mining and enslaving the natives, they could have acquired those artifacts? If you can, please name sources, as you have done with your side of the debate.

Thank you,

Joe

cactusjumper, gollum,
If a Jesuit mining operation did exist in the SWA, would slave labor have been used?
What about later, during the Mexican or so called Peralta period? Would they have used slaves?

It's the other side of any lost mine discovery story. Someone did the physical labor, suffered and perhaps died.
Slaves?

Thanks!

 

[cactusjumper]

cactusjumper, gollum,
If a Jesuit mining operation did exist in the SWA, would slave labor have been used?
What about later, during the Mexican or so called Peralta period? Would they have used slaves?

It's the other side of any lost mine discovery story. Someone did the physical labor, suffered and perhaps died.
Slaves?

Thanks!

Hal,

Since I no longer believe in extensive Jesuit mining in the Southwest, I'm a poor person to answer the question of slaves being used. There is a legend of Garden Valley being used as the location of slave quarters, but I don't believe there is any solid evidence to back up the story.

On the other hand, Ben Davis or one of his.......folks, might have a story that cozies up to such a tale.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal,

Since I no longer believe in extensive Jesuit mining in the Southwest, I'm a poor person to answer the question of slaves being used. There is a legend of Garden Valley being used as the location of slave quarters, but I don't believe there is any solid evidence to back up the story.

On the other hand, Ben Davis or one of his.......folks, might have a story that cozies up to such a tale.

Good luck,

Joe

Thanks cactusjumper,
You did not comment on the Mexicans (the Peraltas). Would slave labor have been used as late as 1847?

 

[BILL96]

Bill Riley
Thanks for your clarifaction.
Bill

 

[Oroblanco]

"a Spanish rancheria supporting Mission Tumacacori 3 miles to the south; a major Spanish Presidio which gave rise to Tubac"

Right off their site.

But the real designation was a walled "Rancheria" which I guess according to what I just posted was the Rancheria named San Cayentano of Tumacacori or Rancheria Presidio Tumacacori!

At some point in time when Father Kino was down there he added Vista Buildings inside the walled Rancheria which is the confusion people may have for calling it a "Vista" of the Guevavi Mission which it was not.

Either way the Tubac city website says it became a Presidio after the large successful Presidio named Tumacacori a short distance to the south.

　
I must respectfully disagree with this set of statements. All presidios were military forts, not missions OR visitas. Presidios had their own churches to be sure, and were apparently tended to by the missionaries whom were also taking care of the flocks at the missions.

This appears to have arisen from misreading or misunderstanding what is written on Tubac's web site. The meaning is that Tubac presidio was established near the missions and visita of Tumacacori, to protect them by order of the King. Not that Tumacacori was a presidio (military fort). Calabasas was not established as a mission until 1756 by father Pauer. Tubac presidio was established by the Spanish military in 1752. Prior to 1752 the nearest Spanish military forces available for protection of the missions was well south in Sonora.

　
Cactusjumper wrote

Since I no longer believe in extensive Jesuit mining in the Southwest, I'm a poor person to answer the question of slaves being used. There is a legend of Garden Valley being used as the location of slave quarters, but I don't believe there is any solid evidence to back up the story.

On the other hand, Ben Davis or one of his.......folks, might have a story that cozies up to such a tale.

What would you define as "extensive mining"? Considering the technology available, and only a limited labor force (some were needed to tend livestock and fields) I am impressed at the amount that appears to have been done. Not counting the once-documented and remaining lost mines, there were mines worked in Arivaca, Guevavi, in the Santa Ritas especially, much more than some hobby digging to obtain enough precious metals to make a salt cellar. How large an operation would have to be, to be considered "extensive" in your opinion? Thank you in advance.

On the question of slaves being used - we are again faced with the question, what is meant by the term "slaves"? Only a scant handful of African slaves are recorded as having been brought into Arizona prior to becoming part of the US. If "enslaved" Indians of the Missions are meant, they were not truly slaves by definition, although many aspects of Mission life are akin to slavery. So we should define exactly what is meant by that term slaves, to get at the answer.
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

Food for thought:

I am distressed at not knowing whether the thousand pesos which my Pimas and I promised for the tomb of our holy Father St. Ignatius reached Rome and, though we have dispatched to Mexico City various quantities of silver for this purpose (on one occasion we sent nintey-seven marcos which come to more than seven hundred pesos), I have received no word that they were forwarded;

from Kino Reports to Headquarters, correspondence from New Spain with Rome, Eusebio Francisco Kino, Institutum Historicum Societatis Jesu, pp 105

Where did all this silver come from, that father Kino and "his Pimas" were able to ship out so much to Rome? Note also that Kino himself was shipping SILVER and NOT coins!
　

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

 

[gollum]

MY GOODNESS! Look what the cat dragged in!

Hey Beth and Roy

Roy, you are absolutely correct. As I stated to Bill previously, Tumacacori was NEVER a Presidio. Before Tubac, the closest Presidio was Altar:



These are period maps of the Presidios of Altar and Tubac.

Hal,

I don't believe the Jesuits ever had any mines in the Superstitions. If they did, they would have likely used newly converted Indians to work them. I think that the Supers (Salt River) were far at the Northernmost reaches of Spanish Jesuit Exploration. I do think it is highly possible the Jesuits did use the imposing Superstition Mountains to hide their wealth when they saw the Suppression coming.

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Food for thought:


from Kino Reports to Headquarters, correspondence from New Spain with Rome, Eusebio Francisco Kino, Institutum Historicum Societatis Jesu, pp 105

Where did all this silver come from, that father Kino and "his Pimas" were able to ship out so much to Rome? Note also that Kino himself was shipping SILVER and NOT coins!
　

Roy,

As you know, Father Kino was one of the most successful Jesuits in the New World. His missions raised cattle and crops wherever possible. The excess which was not needed for their flock was sold to mines. Many of the priests required that they be paid in silver. They recorded their transactions and listed their assets on a regular basis.

I am not surprised nor suspicious of the letter/report you have quoted.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

What "supplies" were his mission Indians selling to raise raw silver in payment thereof? Why did father Saeta say in his very last letter, just before he was killed by his own Indians, that he could pay for the clothing he ordered in wheat or silver (and NOT in pesos, meaning raw silver bullion)? Kino himself even mentioned the Pima Indians whom offered to BUY a padre for themselves, using their own silver mines to pay for him! Are you saying that those silver mines were immediately shut down on the arrival of the padres? Who managed all of the financial affairs of the Indians at the missions? Was it not the padres?

We have Kino himself mentioning that he had shipped silver to Mexico city, and a respectable amount at that, not long after those same Pima Indians had offered to buy a padre, how much silver would it cost they asked. We have father Saeta mentioning that he would be able to pay in silver, although he had not been at his mission more than a few weeks (can't recall exactly offhand). We might note that his Indians at Caborca rose in rebellion and killed him as the first one to get killed, and later stated they were being mistreated by one of Saeta's foremen, a trusted Opata Indian.

We have the Catholic study, The Wealth of the Jesuits in Mexico, 1767, which lists some mines owned (openly) by the Jesuits; several researchers have turned up other instances where the Jesuits were mining, and always it was assumed to be a singular occurrence. We have smelting slag found at Guevavi and San Xavier del Bac, some of it right in the walls of Tumacacori and Bac in fact. Old mines were found by early American prospectors who claimed they were following Jesuit documents found in the missions, including several mines in the Santa Ritas, one in the Silver Bell mountains, several near Arivaca, and we have the gold mine near Guevavi which remains undiscovered today although mentioned by Nentvig in Rudo Ensayo. We have the letters of one Jesuit (from Switzerland) in which he complains of being in the Silver mountains, and yet has no silver ware to eat with, which by implication means there was an abundance of silver around him but no silverware, and the same source later complains that he cannot work the mines in safety because of the hostile Indian threat.

I just wonder what is your own definition of "extensive" mining operations. As far as I can see, the Jesuits were pretty active in searching for and developing mines, up to the limits of the manpower, technology, and threats of hostile Indians would allow. Clearly they also shipped at least some silver to Mexico City, intended for Rome, but this hardly accounts for the amount of workings and tailings as found by the early American prospectors.

I don't expect to convince you at this point Joe, however I am still curious about what you would mean to be 'extensive' mining, thanks in advance. I hope all is well with you folks, don't forget to spoil Smoky a little bit tonight with an extra treat for no reason.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

Just to show that I was not making that up, here are two of the references mentioned earlier but not posted:

From father Saeta's last letter to Kino:

I shall be glad if the articles of clothing referred to can be brought at the time of meeting from some of these mining towns for my children, for they are limited to sack-cloth, blankets, tunics and pisiete. I will promptly pay what they are worth, either in wheat or in silver, at the latest at wheat harvest, for here work proceeds with vigour, feruet opus, and i realize that these attractions are very helpful for the spiritualities as well as for the temporalities.

**"feruet opus" - Latin meaning "the work glows"
from Kino's Historical Memoir of Pimeria Alta vol 1, pp 138

It is necessary for the missionary fathers to regale the mandarin in Great China with various gifts and presents in return for permission to preach our Holy Catholic Faith, whereas, as Father Daniel Angel, who was rector, visitor, and missionary of Matape (the commission as provincial which came to him from Rome found him dead) was accustomed to say, when some nations had failed to secure the fathers whom they requested, here they asked him, as they have asked me, how much a father would cost, in order that, as in their simple discourse they put it, with the silver which which their maize and mines they might assemble, they could buy a missionary father, to baptize them and minister to them for their eternal salvation.

Kino's Historical Memoir of Pimería Alta: A Contemporary Account ..., Volume 2 By Eusebio Francisco Kino, pp 145

Clearly, the Indians already had silver mines even before they had padres! A priest sent to manage (and in their eyes, BOSS) these Indians, would also be managing their mines correct? All to the greater glory of God of course.

Please do continue amigos, sorry for getting off on a tangent there.
Oroblanco


　

 

[deducer]

Great to see this thread busy again.

 

[Oroblanco]

Just a bit of extrapolation here, but based on Kino's letter to Rome, it is clear that some silver must have vanished in shipping it to Mexico city. Ninety seven marcos in one shipment (example). Clearly, the security of shipping silver (and gold) was a major issue, at least in the time of Kino, and we know from the letters of another Jesuit that it remained an issue forty years later. This by itself, may explain at least one motive for stockpiling the silver and gold near the missions, rather than trying to ship it to Rome where it could be stolen along the route. Just more food for thought of course, but it could be one major reason why the inventory of Tayopa seems extraordinarily large, as also with the Molina document. They could not ship it safely!

Please do continue amigos,
Oroblanco