Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman mine?

[Cubfan64]

Not to speak for Marius here, but perhaps the back story of the assay might help clarify the idea of just how 'representative' it might be. The assay was done because the buyer was uncertain of the value, in other words 'demanded' before buying it. That would mean that the sample was more likely chosen by the buyer, not the seller, and would not be the richest piece(s) of the lot. If the ore assay was done by a prospector looking to sell a prospective mine, then naturally it would have been the richest he could get, but in this case it was at the demand of the buyer.

That said, it obviously would have been hand cobbed to reduce the amount of waste rock to have to haul away. Even so, at 5500 ounces per ton, it is not as rich as some other mines have produced. We are speculating until someone finds the mine of Jacob Waltz.

Please do continue, sorry for the interruption.

Hi Roy,

Your explanation of the assay "back story" is how I've always understood it as well - thanks for clarifying. I probably wasn't exactly clear that what I was referring to wasn't the specific piece or pieces chosen to do the assay on, but rather the entire "collection" that was being offered for sale. It's my belief that what was being offered for sale was NOT representative of a vein of ore in a mine so trying to calculate a value for a vein of ore based on that assay is flawed is all.

I decided I'm not going to be able to make the Rendezvous this year. Combination of things including work, $ and just the fact that while I enjoy the opportunity to say hello to some folks I don't see very often, the get together just hasn't had the same feel for the last few years. Too much drinking for my taste, more people with completely crazy ideas and theories than usual and too many discussions about TV episodes, etc...

I'll go again at some point, but this just isn't the year for me unfortunately.

 

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[PotBelly Jim]

Not to speak for Marius here, but perhaps the back story of the assay might help clarify the idea of just how 'representative' it might be. The assay was done because the buyer was uncertain of the value, in other words 'demanded' before buying it. That would mean that the sample was more likely chosen by the buyer, not the seller, and would not be the richest piece(s) of the lot. If the ore assay was done by a prospector looking to sell a prospective mine, then naturally it would have been the richest he could get, but in this case it was at the demand of the buyer.

That said, it obviously would have been hand cobbed to reduce the amount of waste rock to have to haul away. Even so, at 5500 ounces per ton, it is not as rich as some other mines have produced. We are speculating until someone finds the mine of Jacob Waltz.

Please do continue, sorry for the interruption.

Roy, good to hear you weigh in, Amigo...hope all is well with you!

The back story you brought up would indeed be something I'm interested in hearing...right now, all I know about the assay comes from the Brownie Holmes affidavit and the Bob Corbin affidavit...excerpts quoted below:

BROWNIE HOLMES AFFIDAVIT

"Keeping several pieces for specimens, my father sold the remainder of the ore to Goldman & Co., who were general merchants on East Washington Street, receiving about $4,800.00 in the transaction."

"One piece of ore was taken to Joe Porterie,(emphasis mine) an assayer, whose office was on West Washington Street, in the next block west of Goldman’s. The assay showed $110,000.00 per ton in gold, the price of gold then being $20.67 per ounce."

"As a means of identification, the matchbox weighs 48.4 grams, and measures 2.489-in. long, 1.317-in. wide and 0.525-in. thick. It is engraved, bearing the inscription “J. L. & Co. to G. H. H.” It is made with inlays of gold-bearing quartz, with free wire fold stringers varying from .06-in. to .13-in. in width, and which would assay an estimated quarter million dollars per ton."



BOB CORBIN AFFIDAVIT

“I have seen the report on said ore which was assayed at Goldman’s Store by Dick Holmes. This report states that the ore assayed out at $110,000 a ton.”

Couple of observations: First, Brownie says only one piece of ore was assayed. Is there information to contradict that?
Second, it would appear Brownie also estimates that the ore in the matchbox would assay at approx. $250K per ton.

I believe this sufficiently illustrates the point that Paul made, and I happen to emphatically agree with...neither the one piece of ore that was assayed, nor the estimation of the jewelry ore in the matchbox, can be reliably used as an estimate as to how much gold was present, per ton, in the actual mine itself...

More importantly, Brownie does not discuss any assay that may or may not have been done on the ore that was sold to Goldman's store for $4.8k...I personally know of none, but that doesn't mean much Does anyone know if there was one? Take care, Jim

 

[Al D]

Skirmishes with the Apache grew more frequent and more intense as the white men invaded more and more of their territory during the time period you speak of, but they were definitely a force to be reckoned with, even during Kino's time. I have several Jesuit maps on which you can see the words "Apache" surrounded by blank space, which seems to suggest that the area was not explored but rather avoided.

Here is a link to a paper you may find interesting:

https://repository.arizona.edu/bits...6/AZU_TD_BOX260_E9791_1966_313.pdf;sequence=1

An excellent piece of information, thank you

 

[Cubfan64]

Roy, good to hear you weigh in, Amigo...hope all is well with you!

The back story you brought up would indeed be something I'm interested in hearing...right now, all I know about the assay comes from the Brownie Holmes affidavit and the Bob Corbin affidavit...excerpts quoted below:

BROWNIE HOLMES AFFIDAVIT

"Keeping several pieces for specimens, my father sold the remainder of the ore to Goldman & Co., who were general merchants on East Washington Street, receiving about $4,800.00 in the transaction."

"One piece of ore was taken to Joe Porterie,(emphasis mine) an assayer, whose office was on West Washington Street, in the next block west of Goldman’s. The assay showed $110,000.00 per ton in gold, the price of gold then being $20.67 per ounce."

"As a means of identification, the matchbox weighs 48.4 grams, and measures 2.489-in. long, 1.317-in. wide and 0.525-in. thick. It is engraved, bearing the inscription “J. L. & Co. to G. H. H.” It is made with inlays of gold-bearing quartz, with free wire fold stringers varying from .06-in. to .13-in. in width, and which would assay an estimated quarter million dollars per ton."



BOB CORBIN AFFIDAVIT

“I have seen the report on said ore which was assayed at Goldman’s Store by Dick Holmes. This report states that the ore assayed out at $110,000 a ton.”

Couple of observations: First, Brownie says only one piece of ore was assayed. Is there information to contradict that?
Second, it would appear Brownie also estimates that the ore in the matchbox would assay at approx. $250K per ton.

I believe this sufficiently illustrates the point that Paul made, and I happen to emphatically agree with...neither the one piece of ore that was assayed, nor the estimation of the jewelry ore in the matchbox, can be reliably used as an estimate as to how much gold was present, per ton, in the actual mine itself...

More importantly, Brownie does not discuss any assay that may or may not have been done on the ore that was sold to Goldman's store for $4.8k...I personally know of none, but that doesn't mean much Does anyone know if there was one? Take care, Jim

It's always interesting to me how you can get something in your head for quite some time and suddenly look at it a different way and see something different.

Here is how I always interpreted the assay and sale of the gold ore to Goldman & Co.

1. Holmes had a collection of gold ore in matrix
2. He selected a few "choice" specimens to keep for himself for whatever purpose
3. Of the rest of the ore he planned to sell to Goldman & Co, one piece was chosen (probably agreed upon by Goldman and Holmes) and assayed by Porterie
4. Based on that assay (the one int the affidavit), the rest of the ore (other than the few "choice" specimens he set aside) was sold to Goldman and Co.

Reading Brownie's affidavit again, an argument could be made that Porterie's assay was done on one of the "choice" pieces Holmes had set aside and had nothing to do with the ore Goldman & Co. bought.

As with everything else Dutchman - who knows?

 

[deducer]

An excellent piece of information, thank you

This, however, is not to say that the Jesuits were not up to something, north of the Gila. Everything that I have come across points to major activity conducted by them, in that region.

 

[Al D]

This, however, is not to say that the Jesuits were not up to something, north of the Gila. Everything that I have come across points to major activity conducted by them, in that region.

My study of the Jesuit documents, i.e. letters and such, indicates to me that the secret activity seems to be localized to the Pimeria Alta / Sonora,
what I think happened is that sometime after the Pima uprising of 1751, a group of spanish workers were massacered in the Superstition mountains, not the ones in Massacre canyon, but an earlier different group. A Jesuit went into the mountains to give them a proper Christian burial, yet for some reason, the Jesuits chose to keep that act a secret

 

[coazon de oro]

Howdy Cubfan,

One other thing you need to consider is that gold buyers buy gold, not gold ore. Goldman & Co. may have bought one of the ore pieces that had been set aside by Holmes, for the matchbox they had made as a presentation. The rest of the gold they bought, had been cleaned. you may remember that Roberts, and Holmes had been seen breaking the ore apart. A gold buyers concern is the purity of the gold he is buying since copper, nikel, silver, ect. aren't worth as much as gold.

Homar

 

[deducer]

An excellent piece of information, thank you

The one thing I am trying to wrap my mind around is: we know that what the Jesuits were doing north of the Gila didn't quite align with the king's interest. Why then did they persistently request military escorts to make the "moqui connection"?

The one possible scenario I have been entertaining is that they had the ability to handpick soldiers to escort them, and picked soldiers who were more loyal to the company than to the crown.

Of all the connections we examine, I think the Basque connection is one that's overlooked but is more critical than most think.

 

[Al D]

The one thing I am trying to wrap my mind around is: we know that what the Jesuits were doing north of the Gila didn't quite align with the king's interest. Why then did they persistently request military escorts to make the "moqui connection"?

The one possible scenario I have been entertaining is that they had the ability to handpick soldiers to escort them, and picked soldiers who were more loyal to the company than to the crown.

Of all the connections we examine, I think the Basque connection is one that's overlooked but is more critical than most think.

The Jesuits always had their own agenda regardless of which country they served, as for the Basque connection, I think you may be onto something there.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Howdy Cubfan,

One other thing you need to consider is that gold buyers buy gold, not gold ore. Goldman & Co. may have bought one of the ore pieces that had been set aside by Holmes, for the matchbox they had made as a presentation. The rest of the gold they bought, had been cleaned. you may remember that Roberts, and Holmes had been seen breaking the ore apart. A gold buyers concern is the purity of the gold he is buying since copper, nikel, silver, ect. aren't worth as much as gold.

Homar

Hey Homar,

Not to respond or comment between you and Paul...but a question from the peanut gallery, if you will...

If there existed, at that time, a few doors down from Goldman's, a means of assaying gold ore...it seems to me that by the very nature of that assay, there existed the means to process said ore...especially if it were less than 50lbs...would an iron ball mill, and the equipment used to conduct the assay, be all that was needed to process said ore into its various parts of gold, silver, and dross?...and then as you said, a purchaser would be able to purchase the gold...having taken a fairly deep dive into chemistry in college, I'm tempted to see this as a fairly rudimentary process...but as a lifelong student of the college of hard knocks, I'm certain I'm missing the real info...

I'm hoping that you, Roy, and Dave will take the time to answer what I'm asking in layman's terms...laborious as it is...

Hope all is well with you Homar...take care, Jim

 

[deducer]

The Jesuits always had their own agenda regardless of which country they served, as for the Basque connection, I think you may be onto something there.

One good example is Captain Juan Bautista De Anza who was suddenly made a Jesuit Brother sometimes prior to Nov. 4, 1729 despite receiving no formal training or taking any vows. De Anza rose to the rank of Captain in 1726 and succeeded Quirós at Fronteras, and became responsible for assigning soldiers to amongst others, the (wait for it) upper Santa Cruz River Valleys in the Pimería Alta. It's not farfetched to imagine him assigning hand-picked soldiers for certain, sensitive tasks.

He was also a Basque.

 

[azdave35]

Hey Homar,

Not to respond or comment between you and Paul...but a question from the peanut gallery, if you will...

If there existed, at that time, a few doors down from Goldman's, a means of assaying gold ore...it seems to me that by the very nature of that assay, there existed the means to process said ore...especially if it were less than 50lbs...would an iron ball mill, and the equipment used to conduct the assay, be all that was needed to process said ore into its various parts of gold, silver, and dross?...and then as you said, a purchaser would be able to purchase the gold...having taken a fairly deep dive into chemistry in college, I'm tempted to see this as a fairly rudimentary process...but as a lifelong student of the college of hard knocks, I'm certain I'm missing the real info...

I'm hoping that you, Roy, and Dave will take the time to answer what I'm asking in layman's terms...laborious as it is...

Hope all is well with you Homar...take care, Jim

jim...when doing an assay you are only dealing with an assay ton (about an ounce of ore)..so the assay house might have just used a mortar and pestle to crush the ore...also i dont know how it was back then but ore of that caliber is called jewelry rock and is never crushed...it is sold to jewelers and made into gemstones and set in jewelry (or matchbox's..stick pins...cuff links etc )..my guess is that ore was never crushed but sold off to jewelers...the jewelry that was made from that ore could be still floating around somewhere and whoever owns it has no clue where it came from

 

[gollum]

One good example is Captain Juan Bautista De Anza who was suddenly made a Jesuit Brother sometimes prior to Nov. 4, 1729 despite receiving no formal training or taking any vows. De Anza rose to the rank of Captain in 1726 and succeeded Quirós at Fronteras, and became responsible for assigning soldiers to amongst others, the (wait for it) upper Santa Cruz River Valleys in the Pimería Alta. It's not farfetched to imagine him assigning hand-picked soldiers for certain, sensitive tasks.

He was also a Basque.

Source for that please? Never heard of the Senior de Anza being made a Jesuit.

Mike

 

[markmar]

On that panel in the picture , you can see how the pieces of ore sold by Holmes looked like . And in the other pic is a pin made by Waltz/Holmes ore .

 

[deducer]

Source for that please? Never heard of the Senior de Anza being made a Jesuit.

Mike

Hey Mike,

Here you go. From: Juan Bautista de Anza: Basque Explorer in the New World, 1693-1740. By Donald T. Garate

 

[Azquester]

One good example is Captain Juan Bautista De Anza who was suddenly made a Jesuit Brother sometimes prior to Nov. 4, 1729 despite receiving no formal training or taking any vows. De Anza rose to the rank of Captain in 1726 and succeeded Quirós at Fronteras, and became responsible for assigning soldiers to amongst others, the (wait for it) upper Santa Cruz River Valleys in the Pimería Alta. It's not farfetched to imagine him assigning hand-picked soldiers for certain, sensitive tasks.

He was also a Basque.

From the archives in Arizona.

Juan Bautista de Anza , (1693-1740), was born in Basque country before leaving for New Spain when he was nineteen years old. He quickly became involved in several silver mines throughout Sonora. On August 2, 1721, he joined the regular cavalry as an alférez, or second lieutenant, at the Janos Presidio under Captain Antonio Bezerra Nieto. In November of 1726, he was promoted to captain and assigned to Fronteras, where he established several livestock ranches. At the time of the discovery of silver Arizonac in 1736, he was Captain of the Presidio de Santa Rosa de Corodeguachi and Chief Justice for His Majesty in the Province of Sonora. Thus, it fell to him to decide the question of whether the find was a mine or hidden treasure, the answer of which affected ownership rights of His Majesty. Anza continued as a soldier and statesman for the next few years, until May 9, 1740 when he was ambushed and killed by a group of Apaches when coming home from a routine supply trip.
Juan Bautista de Anza ’s son, also Juan Bautista de Anza (1735-1788), was Governor of New Mexico from 1777 to 1787. He began his career when he enlisted in the army at the Presidio of Fronteras. His military duties mainly consisted of forays against hostile Native Americans, during the course of which he explored much of what is now Arizona. After the Spanish began colonizing Alta California in 1769, a land route was needed to avoid the long, arduous see voyage. On January 8, 1774 de Anza and a team set out to find the land route. They returned in late May of the same year. In addition, de Anza also found the first overland route to San Francisco Bay, although he did not establish settlement, and a route from Santa Fe to Sonora. On August 24, 1777, the Viceroy of New Spain appointed de Anza as the Governor of the Province of Nuevo Mexico, present day New Mexico. During his tenure as governor, he completed several local military expeditions against tribes defending their homelands. In 1887 he returned to Sonora. He was appointed commander of the Presidio of Tucson in 1788 but died before he could take office.
José de Zúñiga was born in 1755 in Cuautitlán, near Mexico City. He began his military career on October 18, 1781 when he enlisted in the frontier army. On September 8, 1781, he became Commandant of the Presidio of San Diego. In 1792 he was promoted to captain and assigned to the Presidio of Tucson, where he did not arrive until 1794. Zúñiga blazed a trail between Tucson and the Zuni pueblos in 1795, but Apache hostilities prevented that route from becoming well-traveled. During 1804—1806 Zúñiga was the commander at Tucson. He later served at Arizpe, and retired as lieutenant colonel and Adjutant Inspector of Presidios.​

Which One?

 

[deducer]

From the archives in Arizona.


Which One?

The first. The second (his son) went by the name Juan Batista de Anza II. Note that de Anza the first was born in the Basque country of Spain.

 

[coazon de oro]

Hey Homar,

Not to respond or comment between you and Paul...but a question from the peanut gallery, if you will...

If there existed, at that time, a few doors down from Goldman's, a means of assaying gold ore...it seems to me that by the very nature of that assay, there existed the means to process said ore...especially if it were less than 50lbs...would an iron ball mill, and the equipment used to conduct the assay, be all that was needed to process said ore into its various parts of gold, silver, and dross?...and then as you said, a purchaser would be able to purchase the gold...having taken a fairly deep dive into chemistry in college, I'm tempted to see this as a fairly rudimentary process...but as a lifelong student of the college of hard knocks, I'm certain I'm missing the real info...

I'm hoping that you, Roy, and Dave will take the time to answer what I'm asking in layman's terms...laborious as it is...

Hope all is well with you Homar...take care, Jim

Howdy Jim,

I see that Dave, who knows more than I do about assaying mineral ore, has responded to this already. I would still say that it could be possible for some assayer to have such a setup. I was not there, so he may have just had a larger hammer, since the law only permits prospectors one sample for such purpose.

However, on Helen Corbin's book, which I have not read, you will find on page 152, that Dick Holmes stated he, and Mr. Roberts, hand ground most of the ore from the candlebox, setting some pieces aside. On some other book, or the Bark notes, Bark also stated he saw them doing this the day after Waltz passed away.

What I don't recall is if Goldman's bought all those unbroken pieces to make the jewlery, or if it was Holmes who had them made into jewley.

Homar

 

[azdave35]

Howdy Jim,

I see that Dave, who knows more than I do about assaying mineral ore, has responded to this already. I would still say that it could be possible for some assayer to have such a setup. I was not there, so he may have just had a larger hammer, since the law only permits prospectors one sample for such purpose.

However, on Helen Corbin's book, which I have not read, you will find on page 152, that Dick Holmes stated he, and Mr. Roberts, hand ground most of the ore from the candlebox, setting some pieces aside. On some other book, or the Bark notes, Bark also stated he saw them doing this the day after Waltz passed away.

What I don't recall is if Goldman's bought all those unbroken pieces to make the jewlery, or if it was Holmes who had them made into jewley.

Homar

homar...in 1892 only rich people had milling equipment...most guys just had a hammer...lol

 

[gollum]

From the archives in Arizona.



Which One?

HAHAHAHA

Come on Bill. It woulda been kinda hard for Juan II to have been made a Jesuit Lay Brother "prior to 1729" when he was born in 1735!


Deducer,

It would not have been too difficult for Juan I to become a Jesuit Lay Brother. He was not a Jesuit Priest by any stretch.

Mike