Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman mine?

[azdave35]

Very pretty rock!

Is interesting, an old timer years ago told me that gold was only found in milky quartz, stay away from glassy quartz. I've always followed that advice. Looks to me like your sample is not all milky, but has some glassy-ness to it.

Just goes to show you, keep your eyes and ears open and you'll learn something new every day.

define milky and glassy?...is milky white and glassy clear?

 

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[audigger53]

Very pretty rock!

Is interesting, an old timer years ago told me that gold was only found in milky quartz, stay away from glassy quartz. I've always followed that advice. Looks to me like your sample is not all milky, but has some glassy-ness to it.

Just goes to show you, keep your eyes and ears open and you'll learn something new every day.

actually gold has been found in clear quartz, don't know what you call glassy quartz.

 

[azdave35]

actually gold has been found in clear quartz, don't know what you call glassy quartz.

exactly...i've seen gold in white quartz..clear quartz.. rose quartz...rusty quartz...all types of quartz...i've seen gold in rocks that the "experts" claim will never carry gold...just like the old saying says..gold is where you find it

 

[Lucky Baldwin]

define milky and glassy?...is milky white and glassy clear?

milky = opaque
glassy = translucent

 

[Lucky Baldwin]

actually gold has been found in clear quartz, don't know what you call glassy quartz.

The old timer to which I refer, was born and raised in Briceburg, in the Merced river canyon. His advice was concerning the motherload region of California, in general, Mariposa county in particular. Obviously, his advice isn't universal.

I've seen some glassy quartz from that region, that the owners claimed contained gold. In actuality the "gold" was just mica inclusions. One guy still wouldn't believe me even after I showed him that his "gold" ore doesn't set off a metal detector.

Look at Mr. Hiker's beautiful specimen. It has some semi-translucent (glassy) quartz, but is still 90%+ milky quartz. I'd love to see a 100% glassy (transparent) quartz-gold specimen.

 

[John_Arizona]

I was way up fish creek and found a juniper tree growing amongst saguaros and no other juniper trees for miles in a very rugged remote location near Apache Res., now maybe its a random tree and not sayin its ol dutch's place either, but just perplexed but it could be nothing, I dont want to post the photo or someone might go snooping lol... just say'n

 

[somehiker]

Keep your eyes open for any old ironwood stumps while you're out there John.

 

[cactusjumper]

Just another story?

Ron
Feldman, a local historian, said
the
Lost Dutchman Mine is on the
opposite
end - on the eastern half of the
mountains. The mine
is an existing mine
called
the Silver Chief.
Feldman
owns Mammoth Mine Gift and
Rock
Shop and his sons operate OK Corral
lnc., a horse
rental business on the same
property.
He has written two books about
the
legend. He owns severalgold mines in
the
area including the Black Queen, which
is
still in operation by him and his family.
""1
followed everybody's footsteps that
led
you nowhere," Feldman said. "The
first
25 years, I became an expert on
where
the Lost Dutchman was not. lt was
the
next 25 years of my life that I got into
information that took
me to the east side
and
I explored the east side."
Feldman
said he has matched up
gold
from the east side to pieces from
the
treasure like the matchbox tied to
Dutchman
gold. He said stone maps that
were
once found off a roadway aren't
legitimate
as some have believed.
Feldman
moved to the area in l-968
and said
there was a time when he took
"a
steady stream" of people back in the
mountains
to search for the gold.
The business
owner said those numbers
have
dwindled since the 1984 moratorium
that
prohibits mining in the Superstition
Mountains.
PART
3
He
said the east side has "perfect
geology" for gold, unlike the western
side.
"Most of
the information on the Lost
Dutchman
mine is bogus, except for what
I
have written," Feldman joked.
Preserving history
Over
the years, the folklore of the
mine
has grown with events such as Lost
Dutchman
Days and the construction of
Goldfield
Ghost Town.
Tuttle
said he and the'tlose-knit" group
who
helps hosttheTreasure Hunterof the
Year
and the Dutch Hunter Rendezvous,
an
annual camping event held to pay
homage to
Jacob Waltz.
He
said the group does its best to
protect
the legacy of the mountains.
"We
value what's in the mountains,"
Tuttle
said. "We don't always want to just
share
everything because we worry there
are people
out there that are just going to
go
out and ruin it."
Tuttle
said there are arEifacts such as a
copper
cross wedged in rock in a cave in
an
undisclosed location.
He
said there isn't yet a way to protect
similar items
left in the mountains other
than
mines that have been intentionally
dynamited
shut.
"There's
nothing we can do, and the
biggest shame
in the world is to go up
there and
find it's gonei' Tuttle said.
"Because
that's what's going to happen.
There's
no way to protect it."
Feldman
said area historians and Dutch
hunters alike have done
their best to not
revea
I eve ry tid bit of facts they know - I i ke
the whereabouts
of the famed matchbox.
The matchbox
is said to contain a small
portion of
gold ore from the Dutchman's
treasure.
About 48 pounds of gold ore
was
found underneath the Dutchman's
deathbed,
according to legend. After
Waltz's death, gold ore
from that location
was sent
to an out-of state jeweler who
made items such
as cuff links, ear rings,
the
matchbox and other jewelry out of
the
treasure. Those items were given to
different
individuals as gifts.
The matchbox is
now owned by a local
historian and
the item is one of the last
known objects
that contains Dutchman
gold.
"(Not
everything is revealed because of)
the
history behind it," Feldman said.
"lt's
because it's the most publicized,
famous mine in
the world. You are right.
I
can probably dig more gold out of the
Black Queen
than I could've today out
of
the Dutchman. Why is that more
important?
lt's more story. The Black
Queen
has a story. But it's not as famous.
It's not
as well-known."

 

[markmar]

Joe

You wrote :

" I
can probably dig more gold out of the
Black Queen
than I could've today out
of
the Dutchman. Why is that more
important?
lt's more story. The Black
Queen
has a story. But it's not as famous.
It's not
as well-known."

Waltz said how his mine has gold to make twenty men millionaires . With the gold then to be about $20 an ounce , this means about one million ounces .
In today value is more than one billion .
This is what make the difference between LDM and Black Queen .

 

[Dirt1955]

I am not a disbeliever in Feldman's story. Feldman's and Jack San Felice books tell a compelling story. Lots to glean between the lines. Feldman and company have lived it, walked it, and dug for it. He deserves a lot of respect for that. Just don't buy the "Pit Mine" is the Lost Dutchman. Of all the published accounts, I tend to believe Charles Kenworthy (with John Wayne's financing) either found it and covered it up when he left the Supers or its still out there yet to be found. If Ted Cox's widow had given me papers that indicated a rich find near the "Pit Mine" I might have come to the same conclusion as Feldman. To each his own. That's what makes for great camp fire conversation!

 

[Al D]

Joe

You wrote :

Waltz said how his mine has gold to make twenty men millionaires . With the gold then to be about $20 an ounce , this means about one million ounces .
In today value is more than one billion .
This is what make the difference between LDM and Black Queen .

That would be about 71,000 pounds, I do not think that even in the richest mine, you would be able to actually see 71,000 pounds of gold unless it had already been mined, which means its actually a cache and not a mine.

 

[markmar]

That would be about 71,000 pounds, I do not think that even in the richest mine, you would be able to actually see 71,000 pounds of gold unless it had already been mined, which means its actually a cache and not a mine.

Joe Porterie who made the assay on the Waltz/Holmes ore , found it at $110,000 per ton . So , about 5500 ounces per ton in that era . The vein runs about 230 feet between the LDM inclined shaft and the LDM Placer/tunnel .

 

[Al D]

That would mean that someone dug 230 feet of hard rock tunnel without extracting the gold that was visible?

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Ted Cox and his partners were in the Pit Mine...I think Ted Cox, while he may have had a continual case of sunstroke, was looking for the processed stuff that came out of that mine and was hidden nearby...I believe they found some of it...I think Waltz did too...I think Herman eventually figured out generally where it was, but it was too late for him...

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who later found that mine, and why that person was up there in the first place...and who he then showed it to...and why there was a pause between when that covered mine was found and when it was covertly mined again...and I'm not talking about the HEAT dig...

It would not surprise me in the least if someone surfaces some day with a piece of ore that has the same characteristics of that in the matchbox...

 

[cactusjumper]

Ted Cox and his partners were in the Pit Mine...I think Ted Cox, while he may have had a continual case of sunstroke, was looking for the processed stuff that came out of that mine and was hidden nearby...I believe they found some of it...I think Waltz did too...I think Herman eventually figured out generally where it was, but it was too late for him...

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who later found that mine, and why that person was up there in the first place...and who he then showed it to...and why there was a pause between when that covered mine was found and when it was covertly mined again...and I'm not talking about the HEAT dig...

It would not surprise me in the least if someone surfaces some day with a piece of ore that has the same characteristics of that in the matchbox...

Jim,

The man who showed Feldman that Pit Mine did not work it, or even go into it. When he found it, it was covered over. The finder told me the story personally. His word was as good as "gold" for me. I believe it was a worked out silver mine that was used to cache a horde of gold.

Three men rode up to that mine and observed two dug out caches as they approached it. One of the men was the finder, the other was the man who eventually opened it up over a three year period, working only in the summer months. Two of those men told me the same story sitting in my front room. The third man, who shall remain nameless, was the same man who took the pictures of the Kochera Ore. I asked him if he thought that ore came out of the Pit Man, and he said he was sure it did. He would be in a position to know.

Many of you folks can connect the dots here, except for who that third man was. If any of you know who worked that mine, and I know plenty of you do, you can ask him how close my story fits the facts of that ride up to the mine. I would bet a lot of money on the truth of the story. Eventually I will probably name the finder of that mine, or at least the man who showed it to those who worked it. It was an old, old mine.

Take care,

Joe

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Jim,

The man who showed Feldman that Pit Mine did not work it, or even go into it. When he found it, it was covered over. The finder told me the story personally. His word was as good as "gold" for me. I believe it was a worked out silver mine that was used to cache a horde of gold.

Three men rode up to that mine and observed two dug out caches as they approached it. One of the men was the finder, the other was the man who eventually opened it up over a three year period, working only in the summer months. Two of those men told me the same story sitting in my front room. The third man, who shall remain nameless, was the same man who took the pictures of the Kochera Ore. I asked him if he thought that ore came out of the Pit Man, and he said he was sure it did. He would be in a position to know.

Many of you folks can connect the dots here, except for who that third man was. If any of you know who worked that mine, and I know plenty of you do, you can ask him how close my story fits the facts of that ride up to the mine. I would bet a lot of money on the truth of the story. Eventually I will probably name the finder of that mine, or at least the man who showed it to those who worked it. It was an old, old mine.

Take care,

Joe

Joe,

You may be right, that this particular mine was a silver mine, and held a significant cache of gold...I do believe that this was the mine described (funnel shaped pit above a tunnel). It doesn't really matter as I see it, how the gold got in there, if it was the actual mine, or raw or semi-processed ore was hidden in there. I don't think it's the only mine in the area that was being worked. And I do believe Waltz was directing Julia and Riney to a cache. So some of the following would make sense:

The story of Waltz placering in a trib of Pinto Creek fits, the story of him following the gold to its source fits, there definitely was at least one outcropping because they were found by other miners not long after, the physical description of the mine fits, the ease of getting from the board house to the mine fits, the presence of caches made outside the mine fits, there are too many things that fit...we could even say that Holmes' story of the mine being covered and the drawing he "got" from Waltz fits...then we have Herman and his activities there, then we have what Herman told Ted Cox about the numerous Spanish mines there, and if we don't want to believe Cox, we just have to read Herman's last interview in Desert Mag and he says the same thing...for Pete's sake, Bicknell's and/or Julia's directions even fit if one takes the time to look...Julia just started in the wrong spot...

In my opinion, there is no other place in the Supes that fits so well...people all have their "pet" places for the LDM, and that's all good, but at least this site had actual gold in it...anyone wants to convince me they found the LDM, show me the gold...and it's also not based on some after-the-fact map or Barry Storm story...all the clues that point to the Pit Mine came from people who knew Waltz or Herman...pretty good evidence in my book...at least it's the best I've seen to date. Glad to see you posting again
Jim

 

[somehiker]

For those who haven't seen this doc yet.....

 

[Cubfan64]

Joe Porterie who made the assay on the Waltz/Holmes ore , found it at $110,000 per ton . So , about 5500 ounces per ton in that era . The vein runs about 230 feet between the LDM inclined shaft and the LDM Placer/tunnel .

Marius, your statement is flawed in my opinion and it's a pet peeve of mine whenever I see the assay values mentioned. Does anyone really believe that the ore Joe Porterie did the assay on was representative of the whole vein of gold that Waltz got it from?

That ore (whether Waltz got it from a vein himself or from a cache) was surely hand picked as the richest pieces possible so any assay done on it would be seriously skewed towards a much higher value than the "whole," and definitely not a representative sample.

 

[sgtfda]

Jim,

The man who showed Feldman that Pit Mine did not work it, or even go into it. When he found it, it was covered over. The finder told me the story personally. His word was as good as "gold" for me. I believe it was a worked out silver mine that was used to cache a horde of gold.

Three men rode up to that mine and observed two dug out caches as they approached it. One of the men was the finder, the other was the man who eventually opened it up over a three year period, working only in the summer months. Two of those men told me the same story sitting in my front room. The third man, who shall remain nameless, was the same man who took the pictures of the Kochera Ore. I asked him if he thought that ore came out of the Pit Man, and he said he was sure it did. He would be in a position to know.

Many of you folks can connect the dots here, except for who that third man was. If any of you know who worked that mine, and I know plenty of you do, you can ask him how close my story fits the facts of that ride up to the mine. I would bet a lot of money on the truth of the story. Eventually I will probably name the finder of that mine, or at least the man who showed it to those who worked it. It was an old, old mine.

Take care,

Joe

 

[markmar]

Marius, your statement is flawed in my opinion and it's a pet peeve of mine whenever I see the assay values mentioned. Does anyone really believe that the ore Joe Porterie did the assay on was representative of the whole vein of gold that Waltz got it from?

That ore (whether Waltz got it from a vein himself or from a cache) was surely hand picked as the richest pieces possible so any assay done on it would be seriously skewed towards a much higher value than the "whole," and definitely not a representative sample.

Paul

Waltz was a miner engineer . I am sure at his university they learned to can deduce how rich could be a vein by their rules . Waltz was in the inclined shaft and knew how rich the vein was and how was running downward to the lip of the clif , where was the tunnel and the outcrop.