Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman mine?

[Oroblanco]

I don't have an opinion on the photos, just would add that sometimes it can be tough to tell the difference between a human path, a cow path, and a wild game trail especially from aerial photos or satellite images.

Please do continue;

 

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[393stroker]

Here's an enhancement of the foot trails from the campsite to the pit mine area.


View attachment 1521082

View attachment 1521083

Hey Bill, that green brush you see on the east side of the ridge is like 8 foot high continuos hedges. When I first went to the pit I went down the ravine that's just to the south of the one with the pit and then tried to cross over through the brush. Bad idea, couldn't get through. I remember thinking that if died in there My body would never be found. It is best to stay on top of the ridge and then work your way down.

 

[audigger53]

Question: Can you ride a horse to it? Not hike ride. He rode out of Phoenix on horseback. Is there water near by where he could take his horse for watering? He would want to keep his horse close because of the Indian Threat. Now water places were known to the Indians that went through there so he had to be very careful of leaving signs that he was there. IMO of course. Just trying to put this in context of 1880's.

 

[cactusjumper]

audigger,

I believe the answers to your questions is yes! Three men rode up to the mine, and two of them told me about the ride while we sat in my front room. The one member of the ride who was not with us, was the man who is said to have worked the mine. The pit was covered over, and they thought our missing friend was dying to open it up. I believe their story is true.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

audigger,

I may have mentioned the names of the three men involved in that ride, but won't do it again.....I sincerely hope. They are both good hands and I trust their word. From what I have been told, one of the two was the man who originally found the mine.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

Question: Can you ride a horse to it? Not hike ride. He rode out of Phoenix on horseback. Is there water near by where he could take his horse for watering? He would want to keep his horse close because of the Indian Threat. Now water places were known to the Indians that went through there so he had to be very careful of leaving signs that he was there. IMO of course. Just trying to put this in context of 1880's.

audigger53 - there's really no way at all to put the terrain in the context of the 1880's and try to compare it with today's terrain. About the best you can guess is that there was water nearby because Roger's Trough Spring was available in the 1880's.

 

[audigger53]

audigger53 - there's really no way at all to put the terrain in the context of the 1880's and try to compare it with today's terrain. About the best you can guess is that there was water nearby because Roger's Trough Spring was available in the 1880's.

Actually as it is not a "developed Area", even with weather changes and the water table dropping you can find the evidence 'most of the time' where there used to be water and springs. Granted the Earthquake back then most likely changed a lot of the water placement, springs. Some gone and some new, as you look at USGS maps you can still see where the old trails were. They last for years and years. Animals, then Indians, then settlers used the easy paths to travel. Most have actually become roads by now. Just what I have noticed over the years going out in the hills and mountains. Yes you can cut cross country, I have done that also, but the trails are much easier and faster travel.

 

[Cubfan64]

Actually as it is not a "developed Area", even with weather changes and the water table dropping you can find the evidence 'most of the time' where there used to be water and springs. Granted the Earthquake back then most likely changed a lot of the water placement, springs. Some gone and some new, as you look at USGS maps you can still see where the old trails were. They last for years and years. Animals, then Indians, then settlers used the easy paths to travel. Most have actually become roads by now. Just what I have noticed over the years going out in the hills and mountains. Yes you can cut cross country, I have done that also, but the trails are much easier and faster travel.

I guess I was just thinking more along the lines of how overgrown the area may have been back in the 1880's vs what it's like now and the effect brush, cactus, catclaw, etc... may have on getting to the area. I misspoke when I used the word terrain since I guess that falls more in line with the ground, rocks, ridges, etc...

You're right about making an educated guess in regards to the water situation.

I'm at work and don't have time to look it up, but something that always pops into my head when I think about whether the Pit Mine could be/have been the LDM is when the Roger's Trough mining area was being worked on. Surely we can make a good determination as to what years people were out there actually working that area and compare it to when Waltz supposedly was going out to his location. The problem of course is we don't have exact years for Waltz and we don't know for sure how many times he actually went out there.

 

[audigger53]

The problem of course is we don't have exact years for Waltz and we don't know for sure how many times he actually went out there.[/QUOTE]

The other problem was when he left town he would be followed. If he lost them, it would be a couple weeks before he came back in. If he couldn't loose them he either made a bee line back to town or he came back and none of them trying to follow him did. On the last one statements I heard back in the 60's was that he would have money if the followers didn't come back. Did he kill them so they wouldn't try torture him for where his mine was. No idea.

 

[cactusjumper]

I guess I was just thinking more along the lines of how overgrown the area may have been back in the 1880's vs what it's like now and the effect brush, cactus, catclaw, etc... may have on getting to the area. I misspoke when I used the word terrain since I guess that falls more in line with the ground, rocks, ridges, etc...

You're right about making an educated guess in regards to the water situation.

I'm at work and don't have time to look it up, but something that always pops into my head when I think about whether the Pit Mine could be/have been the LDM is when the Roger's Trough mining area was being worked on. Surely we can make a good determination as to what years people were out there actually working that area and compare it to when Waltz supposedly was going out to his location. The problem of course is we don't have exact years for Waltz and we don't know for sure how many times he actually went out there.

Paul,

Not sure Waltz having a rich mine in the Superstitions was on a front burner, so to speak, prior to his death. Once he died and the story by Julia started making the rounds, I believe he was practically unknown in town. Believe he kept a very low profile. Nothing in his death announcement claiming he was a prospector or suspected of having a rich mine. If it was as well known as claimed, someone would have sold the story to the local papers. At his death, the "Hell I Was There" syndrome quickly came into play. Just one man's opinion.

Take care,

Joe

 

[deducer]

Paul,

Not sure Waltz having a rich mine in the Superstitions was on a front burner, so to speak, prior to his death. Once he died and the story by Julia started making the rounds, I believe he was practically unknown in town. Believe he kept a very low profile. Nothing in his death announcement claiming he was a prospector of suspected of having a rich mine. If it was as well known as claimed, someone would have sold the story to the local papers. At his death, the "Hell I Was There" syndrome quickly came into play. Just one man's opinion.

Take care,

Joe

Hi Joe,

Waltz wasn't an unknown in town. Hard to remain incognito when you're paying for everything in gold. There were quite a number of people who tried to track Waltz back into the mountains, not just Holmes.

 

[cactusjumper]

Hi Joe,

Waltz wasn't an unknown in town. Hard to remain incognito when you're paying for everything in gold. There were quite a number of people who tried to track Waltz back into the mountains, not just Holmes.

Hi deducer,

I have read just about everything I could find on Waltz. Lot's of modern-day writers make that claim, but the only things I can find that are contemporaneous with Jacob Waltz owning a gold mine are up in the Bradshaw's. Everything else falls into the "Hell I Was There" syndrome for me.

Where is it documented that he paid for everything in gold?

Just one man's opinion.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Hi deducer,

I have read just about everything I could find on Waltz. Lot's of modern-day writers make that claim, but the only things I can find that are contemporaneous with Jacob Waltz owning a gold mine are up in the Bradshaw's. Everything else falls into the "Hell I Was There" syndrome for me.

Where is it documented that he paid for everything in gold?

Just one man's opinion.

Take care,

Joe

Not to try to speak for our mutual amigo Deducer, just want to add a bit here. Trying to define Jacob Waltz in hard and fast terms is rather like the old joke about the three blind men trying to describe an elephant, "it depends on what part of the critter you touch". Waltz's life in Phoenix in his later years is of quiet obscurity, only to become famous at and after his death, when his rich gold mine became public knowledge. Yet even in Phoenix there are stories of Waltz being much more open about his mine, and in other towns such as Florence, it was quote "no big secret". As for Holmes being the ONLY one who ever tried to trail Waltz to his mine, we have Mitchell's account of at least two other fairly well known (at that time) Arizona pioneers having tried to trail Waltz, and these men were apparently still alive when this was originally published so could have easily contradicted it had the story been false. There are stories of others trying it as well. Waltz lived to a pretty good age for that time period, around 81 years if memory serves. He only moved to Phoenix in 1868 after selling his claims in the Bradshaws, but even so this still allows a rather long time period for us to examine, namely 23 years give or take a year. I very much doubt that he ONLY made a very few trips to his mine, certainly I will grant that in his old age, he probably made very few visits, hence the use of caches of ore, so that he could come back and extract a good amount of gold as he grew older and needed money, without having to mine it again. But in his younger days, say that earlier period of 1868 to say 1875, he would have been young enough and tough enough to make trips annually just as is claimed by witnesses.

More than one source claim that Waltz paid for his goods in gold, in his earlier years. This is nothing unusual in a territory with many gold miners, in fact having cash money was much more unusual and someone spending a wad of cash might be noticed more readily than a miner paying for things with gold. In Waltz's later years he was reportedly selling eggs and a few other farm products, so he probably did not pay for everything in gold by that time. Side thing here but there are still some places where it is not strange to see someone paying for their shopping in gold dust etc in remote areas of Alaska for instance.

*** for any neophytes, I would point out that there was NO Social Security in Waltz's day, it was not uncommon for a miner to save up gold or silver they were mining, for their own old age "pension" and even to stash it in caches. Waltz seems to fit that mould, rather than the greedy and murderous killer willing to kill anyone for gold as he is often portrayed. Would a vicious killer dig up his own 'retirement fund' of gold to help bail out a friend in financial trouble? Waltz did.

Please do continue, and apologies for stepping into that point of the debate un-invited.

 

[markmar]

Matthew had posted this claim map previously, and seeing as how the claim locations shown have been public for quite a long time I would think many have used it to explore that area in the hopes of finding something worthwhile. So what you say is certainly possible.

View attachment 1519804

If you want to take the time to do so, copy the claim outlines to a modern topo and/or GE views and take those along with you when you get your group together.
Should help with understanding what is what, when and if you can find the "pit mine" or any other nearby diggings out there.
Personally, I still don't believe this pit mine is the LDM. Partly because there was no mention of silver ore in the stories that Waltz or his closest associates passed on.
Nor was there any description of a cache located so deep in any mine, silver or gold, that it would take a group of men three years of work and all that equipment to recover it. Waltz only mentioned that one cache was in the "rat hole" tunnel down below the pit, and just behind the partial wall of rocks that he had concealed it with. The other two caches could be watched over from his mine, so that negates the "deep cache" theory as well IMO. If there was any connection between that "pit mine" and Waltz, I would still suggest that it may have been the mine that Waltz and Wieser helped Peralta with in the earlier chapter of that saga, with the true "LDM" being the one they or he found the Mexicans working elsewhere in the range at a later date. Having killed the Mexicans, and perhaps thinking they may have been related to their former partner, it makes sense that he might be reluctant to file a legal claim on his gold mine for that reason alone IMO.

Wayne

This is an accurate GE image with the claims in Randolf district , made with the Matthew 's picture overleyed on GE . I made it for those who are interested in searching old mines in that district .
Seems how the Pit mine ( yellow dot ) don't belonged to any claim .



And for those who like and understand better the Topo maps

 

[deducer]

Hi deducer,

I have read just about everything I could find on Waltz. Lot's of modern-day writers make that claim, but the only things I can find that are contemporaneous with Jacob Waltz owning a gold mine are up in the Bradshaw's. Everything else falls into the "Hell I Was There" syndrome for me.

Where is it documented that he paid for everything in gold?

Just one man's opinion.

Take care,

Joe

Joe,

Our research methods are different. It seems that you are big on documentation and sources. I think it's important to keep in mind that we are dealing with an era, a point in time, and a place, the Arizona frontier, where documentation was sparse and not extensive, and if they were kept, were not well preserved as far as standing the test of time.

I prefer to do as much research as I can, not with a true/false mindset, but to look for patterns, certain things that repeat, and things that are corroborated by more than one source, whether hearsay or not. I also try to think and walk in the footsteps of those I follow. And last, but not least, I get out there and explore, and hike as much as I can, and in this way have been able to verify that a handful of clues from the various tales associated with the LDM do, in fact, exist in the Superstitions.

In short Waltz was a miner. The idea of dealing in cash, or otherwise giving away gold, in exchange for paper assets (likely demand notes at the time) would not be something he would embrace. For that reason, alone, I think that he would barter only with gold, except for when he sold eggs, and other items, likely to try and disguise the source of his income.

The story that he had buried containers of gold on his property would seem to support that idea.

 

[Oroblanco]

Wayne

This is an accurate GE image with the claims in Randolf district , made with the Matthew 's picture overleyed on GE . I made it for those who are interested in searching old mines in that district .
Seems how the Pit mine ( yellow dot ) don't belonged to any claim .

View attachment 1522226

And for those who like and understand better the Topo maps

View attachment 1522230

Good post Marius, however to everyone, I would suggest to not assume claim maps are going to be 100% accurate, certainly not accurate enough to match up with satellite images or topographic maps, except in the rare cases where the claim maps are made by surveyors taking legal surveys as were done for patent applications. Otherwise as in all mining claims, the actual monuments on the ground are the final word on the boundaries regardless of what description(s) or maps drawn, unless a legal survey is done and they too must define claims by the monuments on the ground.

Please do continue:

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe,

Our research methods are different. It seems that you are big on documentation and sources. I think it's important to keep in mind that we are dealing with an era, a point in time, and a place, the Arizona frontier, where documentation was sparse and not extensive, and if they were kept, were not well preserved as far as standing the test of time.

I prefer to do as much research as I can, not with a true/false mindset, but to look for patterns, certain things that repeat, and things that are corroborated by more than one source, whether hearsay or not. I also try to think and walk in the footsteps of those I follow. And last, but not least, I get out there and explore, and hike as much as I can, and in this way have been able to verify that a handful of clues from the various tales associated with the LDM do, in fact, exist in the Superstitions.

In short Waltz was a miner. The idea of dealing in cash, or otherwise giving away gold, in exchange for paper assets (likely demand notes at the time) would not be something he would embrace. For that reason, alone, I think that he would barter only with gold, except for when he sold eggs, and other items, likely to try and disguise the source of his income.

The story that he had buried containers of gold on his property would seem to support that idea.

deducer,

I doubt our methods are that much different. Although I state that everything that is not documented as a reliable source "falls into the hell I was there syndrome" that does not mean I completely discount those in that category. Over the years I have been down many dead end trails. Each year, I have grown a little more cautious.

Unless you have lived it, written history is the best thing most of have to go on. Reading history from different viewpoints helps to sort out some truths and some falsehoods. For instance, I have read the history of the (misnamed) Fedderman Massacre from the Army's side, the side of Mrs. Carrington and the Indians who participated in the fight. Out of those accounts, I have formed my own opinion of what took place. Some of those accounts definitely fell into the Hell I was there......but I believe it's still the best methodology. Others may feel another method works better, and that's fine with me.

I happen to like most of your reasoning and conclusions.


Take care,

Joe

 

[nmth]

deducer,

I doubt our methods are that much different. Although I state that everything that is not documented as a reliable source "falls into the hell I was there syndrome" that does not mean I completely discount those in that category. Over the years I have been down many dead end trails. Each year, I have grown a little more cautious.

Unless you have lived it, written history is the best thing most of have to go on. Reading history from different viewpoints helps to sort out some truths and some falsehoods. For instance, I have read the history of the (misnamed) Fedderman Massacre from the Army's side, the side of Mrs. Carrington and the Indians who participated in the fight. Out of those accounts, I have formed my own opinion of what took place. Some of those accounts definitely fell into the Hell I was there......but I believe it's still the best methodology. Others may feel another method works better, and that's fine with me.

I happen to like most of your reasoning and conclusions.


Take care,

Joe

Not sure that I'm on a "side" here, but I can say that in at least one well-documented case of history I have touched, that the evidence on the ground told a VERY different tale, and one that's all-in-all more logical, but less romantic.

The "Circle K receipts" matter, but they are not all that matter.

 

[Azquester]

Wayne

This is an accurate GE image with the claims in Randolf district , made with the Matthew 's picture overleyed on GE . I made it for those who are interested in searching old mines in that district .
Seems how the Pit mine ( yellow dot ) don't belonged to any claim .

View attachment 1522226

And for those who like and understand better the Topo maps

View attachment 1522230

What you just posted may be true. If you have a hard rock claim you're entitled to the vein underground even if it goes off the claim markers up top. If that is the true site of the Pit. I have a few versions of locations of the pit. I may not be able to find the exact site with out some help because of this.

 

[markmar]

What you just posted may be true. If you have a hard rock claim you're entitled to the vein underground even if it goes off the claim markers up top. If that is the true site of the Pit. I have a few versions of locations of the pit. I may not be able to find the exact site with out some help because of this.

Bill

A good source told me the Pit mine is in the SNAP claim under the SKYBLUE .