Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman mine?

[cactusjumper]

Marius,

I have no idea how you came up with that, but I have never seen or heard it before.

Good luck,

Joe

 

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[markmar]

Marius,

I have no idea how you came up with that, but I have never seen or heard it before.

Good luck,

Joe

Is one of the German clues :

“Ich versteckte die miene genau so wie die Mexicaner.”
I hid the mine like the Mexicans.

 

[cactusjumper]

Is one of the German clues :

“Ich versteckte die miene genau so wie die Mexicaner.”
I hid the mine like the Mexicans.

Marius,

Been a long time since I looked at the "German Clues". Actually, there's a good reason for that. Those clues are highly suspect for any kind of authenticity. According to Jim Hatt, even though I seldom quote him, he wrote the following:

[THE "GERMAN" CLUES

by Jim Hatt » Sat Sep 12, 2009 9:41 am
For those who do not know what clues djui is talking about. He appears to be referring to the "German Clues". As to whether or not they came "directly from Waltz's mouth" is highly debatable. It is more in the realm of Helen said... The Holmes Camp said... Herman said... Julia said... Waltz said, which is a long, long ways from "directly from Waltz's mouth", but it is the only "List of clues" that comes to mind from that particular book.

As I keep repeating in these forums. Only someone who spoke directly to Waltz could say that "He said". Anything else falls under... According to "So and So" Waltz said.

Jacob Waltz is the "Primary Source" for anything concerning the Lost Dutchman Mine.
Julia Thomas and Rhiney Petrasch are "Secondary Sources".
Bark and Ely would be "Third Hand Sources". Anyone quoting Bark or Ely would be "Fourth Hand Sources"... etc. Every step away from Waltz presents the possibility of the information being misquoted, misunderstood or intentionally altered, by the time it gets to us.

The German Clues first appeared to the public on pages 184-187 in Helen Corbin's book The Bible on the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine and Jacob Waltz Published in June 2002.

According to the information provided to Helen along with them. Sometime around the turn of the century Herman Petrasch, approached members of the Holmes Camp, and presented them with this list of clues.

That in itself, should be enough to make anyone immediately suspicious about the source of the clues. If that is not enough… Then you have to wonder why neither Jim Bark or Sims Ely ever heard of these clues, and why none of them match up with anything Julia Thomas, or the Petrasch’s told Ely or Bark?

Here are the clues as presented in Helen Corbin's book identified above:

Am I the only one that finds it hard to believe that Herman Petrasch was the source for these clues, and that he went out of his way to hand them over to the Holmes camp?]
_______________________________________________

Anything from Roberts and Edwards is "historically" unsupported. If you choose to use it, you should consider the source.


Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[markmar]

Joe

From my part , I found the German clues very accurate , enough to put them in the right order .
Also , three clues were wrong translated . And , in some clues , Waltz described his drawing .

 

[cactusjumper]

Marius,

I believe the "German Clues" were meant to mislead Dutch Hunters. They were created, like many maps, clues, etc. by people familiar with the range and the different legends. They contain enough facts to enable anyone trying to follow them to be encouraged.......just as you are. It's unlikely they will lead anyone to great riches. If they could, the people (person) who created them would have already removed anything of worth.

This is not meant to discourage you from following your dreams, just to open your eyes to something/clues that many Dutch Hunters have looked at for years and eventually discarded. Jim Hatt had this exactly right. Mark this date, as you won't often hear this from me.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[markmar]

Marius,

I believe the "German Clues" were meant to mislead Dutch Hunters. They were created, like many maps, clues, etc. by people familiar with the range and the different legends. They contain enough facts to enable anyone trying to follow them to be encouraged.......just as you are. It's unlikely they will lead anyone to great riches. If they could, the people (person) who created them would have already removed anything of worth.

This is not meant to discourage you from following your dreams, just to open your eyes to something/clues that many Dutch Hunters have looked at for years and eventually discarded. Jim Hatt had this exactly right. Mark this date, as you won't often hear this from me.

Good luck,

Joe

Joe

I'm sure the person who created them found something worth , because was Waltz .
Here are the clues ( in the right order ) which describe the Waltz drawing :

“Ein hoher berg steht zu dem osten.”
A high mountain is to the east. ( Looking south )


“Ein tiefes tal lieft zu dem wester.”
A low valley lies to the west.


Schav fur die felsenspitze die Mexicaner benutzten die felsenspitze al sein anhaltspunkt.”
Look for the spire, the Mexicans used the spire(s) as their marker(s). ( Weaver's Needle )


“Zu dem westen kannst du den sehen.”
To the west you will see another peak. { The righ translation is : " You will see it to the west " ( above the low valley , like in the Waltz drawing ) }

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe

I'm sure the person who created them found something worth , because was Waltz .
Here are the clues ( in the right order ) which describe the Wasltz drawing :

“Ein hoher berg steht zu dem osten.”
A high mountain is to the east. ( Looking south )


“Ein tiefes tal lieft zu dem wester.”
A low valley lies to the west.


Schav fur die felsenspitze die Mexicaner benutzten die felsenspitze al sein anhaltspunkt.”
Look for the spire, the Mexicans used the spire(s) as their marker(s). ( Weaver's Needle )


“Zu dem westen kannst du den sehen.”
To the west you will see another peak. { The righ translation is : " You will see it to the west " ( above the low valley ) like in the Waltz drawing }

Marius,

As Jim Hatt put it, why didn't Jim Bark or Sims Ely mention these clues? They were the first searchers to interview Julia and Herman. This after Julia had given up on the search. Later on, Julia was probably interviewed by P.C. Bicknell, one of the first to write up the story for the newspapers.

At this point in time, I could write different "clues" which would take you everywhere and nowhere. You would travel from clue to clue, just as surely as you are following the German Clues. I am not alone, hundreds of Dutch Hunters could create "authentic" clues which could be transferred to a realistic looking "map" to the "LDM". If I make it to the next Rendezvous, and you are there, I will be happy to make such a map leading to wherever you wish. If I don't make it, just ask anyone there.

Would you say that's a reasonable assumption? Could you draw a "fake" map with realistic, on the ground, markers for somewhere in the Superstitions? I know I could and make it end up at a dozen old, sealed mines in the range. Many of the long time Dutch Hunters have followed those "German Clues" foot for foot into the mountains. Have you left your tracks in there?

One other question......Have you looked for historical records for the source of the "German Clues"?

I hope you find the dream you are seeking.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Marius,

Been a long time since I looked at the "German Clues". Actually, there's a good reason for that. Those clues are highly suspect for any kind of authenticity. According to Jim Hatt, even though I seldom quote him, he wrote the following:

[THE "GERMAN" CLUES

by Jim Hatt » Sat Sep 12, 2009 9:41 am
For those who do not know what clues djui is talking about. He appears to be referring to the "German Clues". As to whether or not they came "directly from Waltz's mouth" is highly debatable. It is more in the realm of Helen said... The Holmes Camp said... Herman said... Julia said... Waltz said, which is a long, long ways from "directly from Waltz's mouth", but it is the only "List of clues" that comes to mind from that particular book.

As I keep repeating in these forums. Only someone who spoke directly to Waltz could say that "He said". Anything else falls under... According to "So and So" Waltz said.

Jacob Waltz is the "Primary Source" for anything concerning the Lost Dutchman Mine.
Julia Thomas and Rhiney Petrasch are "Secondary Sources".
Bark and Ely would be "Third Hand Sources". Anyone quoting Bark or Ely would be "Fourth Hand Sources"... etc. Every step away from Waltz presents the possibility of the information being misquoted, misunderstood or intentionally altered, by the time it gets to us.

The German Clues first appeared to the public on pages 184-187 in Helen Corbin's book The Bible on the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine and Jacob Waltz Published in June 2002.

According to the information provided to Helen along with them. Sometime around the turn of the century Herman Petrasch, approached members of the Holmes Camp, and presented them with this list of clues.

That in itself, should be enough to make anyone immediately suspicious about the source of the clues. If that is not enough… Then you have to wonder why neither Jim Bark or Sims Ely ever heard of these clues, and why none of them match up with anything Julia Thomas, or the Petrasch’s told Ely or Bark?

Here are the clues as presented in Helen Corbin's book identified above:

Am I the only one that finds it hard to believe that Herman Petrasch was the source for these clues, and that he went out of his way to hand them over to the Holmes camp?]
_______________________________________________

Anything from Roberts and Edwards is "historically" unsupported. If you choose to use it, you should consider the source.


Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

Not to derail the discussion, but I have to admit being in agreement with Joe and Jim Hatt here. I would add that the so-called German clues are also <besides Jim Bark or Sims Ely> not mentioned by Bicknell, John Mitchell or the Pioneer interviews. One would think that if these clues existed, one of the earliest researchers would have mentioned them. Also, considering the source, even IF Herman Petrasch actually passed these clues on to the Holmes camp, remember Herman was a little bit deluded himself. If memory serves, he made several questionable statements in a magazine interview, which could not be true or were highly unlikely.

Please do continue,

 

[markmar]

I wrote only my opinion . I don't know the reasons Herman or Julia didn't tell the German clues to Bark or Bicknell , but i believe everyone make his own decisions to whom he would talk about the clues to a rich gold mine .
From all who had something to write about the German clues , nobody found the mistakes in the translation and nobody put them in the right order . But here is a logical explanation . Someone have to know about what Waltz was talking or to know where the LDM is to put the German clues in the right order .


What about this German clue that was lost in the translation ?

“Von meiner lagerstatte wen du im sattel sitz kannst du in ferne im suden durch ein loch vom Berg sehen.”
From my camp in the saddle you will see a peak in the distance to the south with a hole.

The right translation is : " From my campsite in the saddle you can see in the far south through a hole from the mountain " .

What about the relation of the right translation with the clues :

- Theres a trick in the trail. You have to go through a hole. (Joe Deering)
- Deering said the hole you go thru was "in a rock". (Chunning to Barkley)
- Say John, you have to go through a hole. (Deering to Chunning)

 

[cactusjumper]

I wrote only my opinion . I don't know the reasons Herman or Julia didn't tell the German clues to Bark or Bicknell , but i believe everyone make his own decisions to whom he would talk about the clues to a rich gold mine .
From all who had something to write about the German clues , nobody found the mistakes in the translation and nobody put them in the right order . But here is a logical explanation . Someone have to know about what Waltz was talking or to know where the LDM is to put the German clues in the right order .


What about this German clue that was lost in the translation ?

“Von meiner lagerstatte wen du im sattel sitz kannst du in ferne im suden durch ein loch vom Berg sehen.”
From my camp in the saddle you will see a peak in the distance to the south with a hole.

The right translation is : " From my campsite in the saddle you can see in the far south through a hole from the mountain " .

What about the relation of the right translation with the clues :

- Theres a trick in the trail. You have to go through a hole. (Joe Deering)
- Deering said the hole you go thru was "in a rock". (Chunning to Barkley)
- Say John, you have to go through a hole. (Deering to Chunning)

Marius,

Sounds like you have it all lined out.

Best of luck,

Joe

 

[deducer]

Very interesting discussion. Hopefully it continues.

 

[coazon de oro]

Howdy Marius,

I am in agreement with you that the German clues fall somewhat in order showing them to be more credible than not. Herman only took down the clues which both Julia, and Rhiney had heard because he knew Rhiney (as Julia would say) was not paying attention. Makes me wonder what was left out coming from Rhiney, that may have been really important. Just like the clue of the square rock close to the mine which he told Bark about.

Now why weren't the German clues revealed earlier? Everyone holds on to the best cards when they are playing to win. Herman folded his cards when he gave up his search.

And about other mines being found covered by Mexicans in the same manner as the LDM, even Tom K. has mentioned it. Pictures have been posted before, so that doesn't make the so called Pit Mine, the LDM. I have yet to see one Dutchman clue which describes the LDM, fit like a puzzle with the Pit Mine. Seems more to me like a failed tunnel site prospecting project.

Homar

 

[Oroblanco]

<snip>
Now why weren't the German clues revealed earlier? Everyone holds on to the best cards when they are playing to win. Herman folded his cards when he gave up his search.

<snip>

Homar

When did Herman Petrasch give up the search? Thank you in advance.

Marius I respectfully disagree with your translation of that particular clue. It can be read differently, and I would propose more accurately as this:

Von meiner lagerstatte wen du im sattel sitz kannst du in ferne im suden durch ein loch vom Berg sehen.

From my camp, where you sit in the saddle, you can see far off in the south through a hole in the mountain.

Sit in the saddle, as in sitting on your horse or mule. This implies a higher viewpoint than standing on the ground.

Please do continue:

 

[coazon de oro]

When did Herman Petrasch give up the search? Thank you in advance.

Marius I respectfully disagree with your translation of that particular clue. It can be read differently, and I would propose more accurately as this:

Von meiner lagerstatte wen du im sattel sitz kannst du in ferne im suden durch ein loch vom Berg sehen.

From my camp, where you sit in the saddle, you can see far off in the south through a hole in the mountain.

Sit in the saddle, as in sitting on your horse or mule. This implies a higher viewpoint than standing on the ground.

Please do continue:

Howdy Roy,

If you will note, I said "his" search, not "the" search. When he realized he could not find it on his own, he folded his cards to Edwards, and Roberts hoping that together they could do better.

Homar

 

[Oroblanco]

Howdy Roy,

If you will note, I said "his" search, not "the" search. When he realized he could not find it on his own, he folded his cards to Edwards, and Roberts hoping that together they could do better.

Homar

I presume you meant to say Holmes? Also, didn't Herman continue searching for the mine right up to his own death? Thanks in advance;

 

[PotBelly Jim]

So I just ran across this thread after not researching anything LDM for a couple of years, and here are a bunch of folks from the old forum...So I just had to register...Glad to see everyone's still on the case...Roy, I think you are right, Hermann stopped searching in 1953...unless you use the same source for the German clues quoted above, which would indicate he was still searching thru 1979!!! Maybe even outlived Brownie!!! Anyway, I think Joe's point has been lost, than Hermann would never, ever have given those clues "around the turn of the century" to the people it was claimed he did...Also, don't know if you remember from the old forum, but I finally found what appears to be Jack Swilling's gravesite...

Best, Jim R.

 

[coazon de oro]

I presume you meant to say Holmes? Also, didn't Herman continue searching for the mine right up to his own death? Thanks in advance;

Ahhh, the Barista del campo's signature batch, gracias.

Edwards, and Roberts were the two members of the Holmes camp that Herman showed his cards too. I don't believe he met with the whole group of Holmes camp. Just like today, there are members on your own camp that you would never trust, but there could be some members of the other camp which you find to be more trustworthy. But yes over the years he may have contacted others as he continued to search with new shared evidence.

Homar

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Hey Homar,

Sorry to interject between you and Roy...don't want to sound uppity either, just some general comments on the thread...but the supposed sharing of the German clues happened "around the turn of the century", (which was only about 10 yrs after the "under-the-bed" ore problem happened)...At this time I think Hermann was living up around Tortilla Mtn. (someone correct me if I'm wrong, it's relevant) and I can't think of any reason he would have given up the search, or wanted partners from anyone, much less a hostile entity, at that early time. I'm also not sure that a William Edwards was actually in the PHX area at the time, so I'm calling the whole episode and all the German clues as BS...my opinion.

And for Roy, who started this thread: No, I don't think the pit mine is the LDM. I think it might be one of the LDC (Cache). I do think it might be the Lost German mine, or the Lost Soldier's mine. Again, only my opinion, I have never been to the pit mine...I have been near it, but like the clues say, I would have never found it.

 

[deducer]

I presume you meant to say Holmes? Also, didn't Herman continue searching for the mine right up to his own death? Thanks in advance;

Roy,

Hermann searched for the LDM until he became seriously injured in 1938 when his horse was pulled back on top of him in Hewitt Canyon. He then moved to the area of the Martin Ranch on the Queen Creek. The Martins looked after him until he died in 1953.

 

[markmar]

Howdy Marius,

I am in agreement with you that the German clues fall somewhat in order showing them to be more credible than not. Herman only took down the clues which both Julia, and Rhiney had heard because he knew Rhiney (as Julia would say) was not paying attention. Makes me wonder what was left out coming from Rhiney, that may have been really important. Just like the clue of the square rock close to the mine which he told Bark about.

Now why weren't the German clues revealed earlier? Everyone holds on to the best cards when they are playing to win. Herman folded his cards when he gave up his search.

And about other mines being found covered by Mexicans in the same manner as the LDM, even Tom K. has mentioned it. Pictures have been posted before, so that doesn't make the so called Pit Mine, the LDM. I have yet to see one Dutchman clue which describes the LDM, fit like a puzzle with the Pit Mine. Seems more to me like a failed tunnel site prospecting project.

Homar

Hi Homar

I believe the only clue that was left out , is the three pines in line from the Julia's map , which are beside the " square " rock with an elongated corner , but not on the side of the mine .

Here I want to make clear how the " square " rock is not literally square . You can see it in the Waltz map , where he depicted the site of the mine .This map has 4 slides , with every slide to show a closer to closer image from the LDM region . I added the pines to the map slide .