Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman mine?

Garry said:
Hal,

I believe you have asked the right questions regarding the match safe!

I’m somewhat biased because I have long believed that the match safe inscription made no sense as it was being interpreted.

A couple of weeks ago I contacted an individual who had handled the actual match safe and this is an excerpt from MY e-mail.

There is supposedly an inscription on the match safe "J. L. & Co. to G. H. H." I have seen several different photos of the safe but I have never seen the inscription in a picture. Have you ever physically seen the match safe and that exact inscription? I'm relatively sure that the inscription exists as quoted and I would like to do some research but I don't want to waste my time if the inscription is not genuine. It has been speculated that J. L. is the manufacturer but that just doesn't strike me as correct. It sounds more like a commemorative gift for some service rendered to a company. Perhaps a valued customer, etc.

Although the individual had handled the match safe, he did not recall seeing the inscription.

For me, it seems important to verify the existence and exact nomenclature of the inscription on the match safe. (Has anyone ever seen a Photo of the inscription and can they share it?)

Anyway you are certainly on the right track in trying to identify “J. L. & Co.

I think that at this point in time, in your research, you should probably forget about Jimmie Douglas, John Levy, Goldmans etc. They are a distraction, only associated with the match safe through the Waltz/Holmes stories.

Can you tie Hirschfeld to Julius Liberman? Are there other candidates for J. L. & Co.? Etc.

Good Luck,

Garry
Click to expand...

Gary,

Yes, someone needs to confirm the engraving/inscription before we can move forward with any real confidence. Assuming what Matthew Roberts has shared is accurate (Brownies description), I think that this is what you are asking for: (note - Hirshfield/Hirshfeld - I have seen it written both ways but it is Hirshfeld - See the Hirshfeld Mining claim {1888} listed under Hirshfield.


View attachment 1331899

Arizona Silver Belt 14 Sep 1895
​



I wouldn't mind seeing a sample of Coarse Gold mine ore.


Hal
 

Last edited:
Hal Croves said:
Gary,

Yes, someone needs to confirm the engraving/inscription before we can move forward with any real confidence. Assuming what Matthew Roberts has shared is accurate (Brownies description), I think that this is what you are asking for: (note - Hirshfield/Hirshfeld - I have seen it written both ways but it is Hirshfeld - See the Hirshfeld Mining claim {1888} listed under Hirshfield.


View attachment 1331899

Arizona Silver Belt 14 Sep 1895
​



I wouldn't mind seeing a sample of Coarse Gold mine ore.


Hal
Click to expand...

Hal,

You are assuming incorrectly. The Robert's transcription of the affidavit has nothing to do with my desire to see an actual photo of the wording. Greg Davis provided me with the affidavit in 2009 and I posted a transcription around that time. The contents of the affidavit have been public for many years and the Robert's transcription is, for all practical purposes, identical.

I would like to see the inscription to verify the contents of the affidavit! There are three affidavits in total that deal with the match safe. Two were later (Kollenborn and Bob Corbin] and appeared in Helen Corbin's book. I believe all three were prepared with a "lot" of input from the present owner of the match safe. Some elements of those two affidavits have been very controversial and I personally hesitate to take everything in them to the bank as being absolute facts. Maybe it's just a bad habit of questioning many things that are presented as "facts".

BTW, I have been scanning the newspapers regarding Julius Liberman and I think your probably onto the solution of "J. L. & Co. to G. H. H." There are literally 100's of articles in which Liberman appears and it's going to take a long time for me to digest things. I have a milion questions!

At any rate you have done a bang up job and I hope to see more indepth information as you move along With sources. :notworthy:

It's your story to tell but we are somewhat hijacking this thread (Is the pit mine really the Lost Dutchman Mine?). The match safe probably deserves it's own thread.

Garry
 

Garry said:
<snip>
It's your story to tell but we are somewhat hijacking this thread (Is the pit mine really the Lost Dutchman Mine?). The match safe probably deserves it's own thread.

Garry
Click to expand...

As the match safe is directly related, I have no issue with discussing it here, or a new thread whichever you prefer. Sometimes it is a nuisance to try to follow the different discussions on different threads, and the famous match box or safe is key (IMHO) to making an ID on the LDM, so is related to whether the Pit mine is the LDM or not. So please do continue.

:coffee2: :coffee: :coffee2:
 

Garry said:
Hal,

You are assuming incorrectly. The Robert's transcription of the affidavit has nothing to do with my desire to see an actual photo of the wording. Greg Davis provided me with the affidavit in 2009 and I posted a transcription around that time. The contents of the affidavit have been public for many years and the Robert's transcription is, for all practical purposes, identical.

I would like to see the inscription to verify the contents of the affidavit! There are three affidavits in total that deal with the match safe. Two were later (Kollenborn and Bob Corbin] and appeared in Helen Corbin's book. I believe all three were prepared with a "lot" of input from the present owner of the match safe. Some elements of those two affidavits have been very controversial and I personally hesitate to take everything in them to the bank as being absolute facts. Maybe it's just a bad habit of questioning many things that are presented as "facts".

BTW, I have been scanning the newspapers regarding Julius Liberman and I think your probably onto the solution of "J. L. & Co. to G. H. H." There are literally 100's of articles in which Liberman appears and it's going to take a long time for me to digest things. I have a milion questions!

At any rate you have done a bang up job and I hope to see more indepth information as you move along With sources. :notworthy:

It's your story to tell but we are somewhat hijacking this thread (Is the pit mine really the Lost Dutchman Mine?). The match safe probably deserves it's own thread.

Garry
Click to expand...

Gary,

It is our story to tell. You, me, any anyone interested in sharing. Those reading this can see that your understanding of the affidavit is much deeper than mine. So, if you want to start a new thread on the topic, I will contribute. I am also OK with leaving it here. Liberman and Hirshfield are fascinating and their circle of friends/associates even more so. Look at the listing record for the Twin Butte Basin #2 Pacer Mining claim:

BONSALL E J
GOLDBERG AARON
GOLDBERG DAVE
GOLDWATER B M
HURSHFIELD GUS
SCHEETS E A
SCHUETTS W J
WINSLOW H O


Do you think that this is the same Gus Hirshfeld? It is spelled Heishfield in the original document. Goldwater B M is also a name that jumps off the page.
What I see is a pattern emerging, thou I am hesitant to describe it for now.


Hal
 

Ok I have one question about the Pit Mine and the LDM. How did the gold change to silver? LDM was gold and the Pit Mine as far as I have read was silver with small amounts of gold, if any when processed. So, where's the gold?
 

Garry said:
... I personally hesitate to take everything in them to the bank as being absolute facts. Maybe it's just a bad habit of questioning many things that are presented as "facts"...
Click to expand...

Oh, no, no, no. Your MO illustrates the difference between accepting sacred cows based on tradition and faith, versus ferreting out the truth no matter where the chips may fall or whose toes are stepped on. When the numbers don't quite add up, it's usually because there's something missing in the math. Keep up the good work.
 

Hard part is to push aside greed and start using logic to sift for the facts of the story/tale and keep digging adding in Human Nature to the story as well.
One of my thoughts was how many times did Waltz go out being followed and he returned and they didn't. Did he also come back with money on those trips? I heard that when they "lost him", he came back without gold or money.
I can understand him shooting them as they wanted his mine, most likely including torture if they got to him 30-40 miles out in the wilderness. Then it could be blamed on the Indians. IMO
 

audigger53 said:
Ok I have one question about the Pit Mine and the LDM. How did the gold change to silver? LDM was gold and the Pit Mine as far as I have read was silver with small amounts of gold, if any when processed. So, where's the gold?
Click to expand...

audigger,

I have often been told, and read, that it's possible for a gold vein to to show up in a silver mine. A later intrusion, like a chimney, could make its way up through a silver lode. Not sure if I have expressed that correctly, but that's how I recall it. Those who do know $#!t about rocks will have to chime in.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo
 

It is interesting that some of the great mining areas started out as gold claims. The gold was found at the top. As the mines went deeper, silver became predominant. Examples are Virginia City, NV and Butte, MT.
 

cactusjumper said:
audigger,

I have often been told, and read, that it's possible for a gold vein to to show up in a silver mine. A later intrusion, like a chimney, could make its way up through a silver lode. Not sure if I have expressed that correctly, but that's how I recall it. Those who do know $#!t about rocks will have to chime in.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo
Click to expand...
all of these deposits were found as outcrops on the surface...once you start shafting on the outcrop and get underground you never know what you are going to run into...alot of mines that start out as silver will usually have some gold strikes running with it....matter of fact not far from the don's camp where the rendezvous is held there are some copper mines that started out as gold mines..then they hit copper ..then they hit gold again..i have even seen silver in these same mines....the funny part is they found these deposits in volcanic rock...the same rocks that the geology books say you will never find any mineral in...go figure that one
 

I do know that the Pamona Mine in Brown Canyon outside of Sierra Vista was a gold vein in the center of a lead vein.
 

audigger53 said:
I do know that the Pamona Mine in Brown Canyon outside of Sierra Vista was a gold vein in the center of a lead vein.
Click to expand...

i assayed a silver sulfide that was about 50% lead and 50% silver..and close to 150 oz per ton in gold..it also came not too terribly far from sierra vista
 

Found a lot of small flakes there, not enough to really excite me, was looking for a lot more. Pomona was in Brown, the Hamberg was in Ramsey. Hamberg was Iron. And then there was the top of Carr Peak where they had a Tungsten Mine, 240 Acres under Patent, now a National Rec Center. Not to mention "lots" of shafts all over the area. They were taking about gold in Ash Canyon in 1984, but we didn't get there.
 

audigger53 said:
Found a lot of small flakes there, not enough to really excite me, was looking for a lot more. Pomona was in Brown, the Hamberg was in Ramsey. Hamberg was Iron. And then there was the top of Carr Peak where they had a Tungsten Mine, 240 Acres under Patent, now a National Rec Center. Not to mention "lots" of shafts all over the area. They were taking about gold in Ash Canyon in 1984, but we didn't get there.
Click to expand...

how far down the canyon is the pomona mine?
 

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