Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman mine?

[cactusjumper]

Steve,

This is my favorite rock:



It's from the Bully Bueno Mine in the Bradshaw's. Many who claim to have been to the mine, have no idea where it really is. Just one more B.S. claim among many.

Take care,

Joe

 

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[cactusjumper]

Joe, I didn't know if you saw it but the second photo has what looks to be a man standing in the rock.

Nice spread!

Bill,

I always thought it was a carving of Father Kino.
It is looking down at the Stone Map Trail and this claim:



Gene Reynolds, who had some inside information on Adolph Ruth, told me that this was the view of Weaver's Needle that Ruth was looking for on his fatal trip into the Supe's. Probably just another coincidence. This is a claim that Ruth could easily reach from Willow Spring.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Matthew Roberts]

cactusjumper,

How were you able to locate the Bully Bueno ?

thanks,

Matthew

 

[Not Peralta]

Amigo's, I am comparing my boulders to the match box ore , not the Dutchmans gold, this is two different things, no one has factually proven that the matchbox gold is from the dutchmans mine, If and when they do, O well. And yes you would have had to been there.NP

 

[cactusjumper]

I guess the best way to locate something you have no clue where it is and no hope of finding it on your own is to ask someone who does know to show you.


Thread: Bully Bueno Mine

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04-04-2007 #1

cactusjumper

cactusjumper is offline Newbie Ghost Towner


Join Date:Apr 2007Posts:4


Default Bully Bueno Mine

Does anyone know the location of the Bully Bueno Mine, which is said to be northwest of Goodwin, AZ? I assume it is close to the Orofino and Mastadon mines.

cj

Matthew,

Which is exactly what I did. As I recall, you claimed you had been to the mine, which you said was just above Goodwin. On the other hand, I did have the newspaper article describing the view of the mine from the road to Battle Flat. When I claimed I knew right where it was........I did. I do have pictures of the mine and surrounding area.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

cactusjumper,

How were you able to locate the Bully Bueno ?

thanks,

Matthew

Matthew,

It's never been a secret how I found the Bully Bueno. Why did you change your original post? The man who showed me how to find it, was a school teacher from the area and had researched the history of the mine. Much of the material I had came from him. I also did a bit of research on my own, just to make sure. You never know when your source might be making it all up.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Not Peralta]

sdcfia, Thanks, at least someone on here can post something else on here for comparison to the matchbox NP.

 

[azdave35]

Amigo's and Amigo-ettes:coffee2 , Just a few reminders that was fresh on my mind, Just for reference there used to be several rock fortifications up next to the cliffs above the massacre grounds, most likely used for defense and look outs,they were torn down sometime in the early 70's, there was at one time several ( oro )signs,very old,there are a couple of newer ones that were never there years ago , theres been so much go on there ,Its hard to keep up with,( Doc Roy ) used to have an old shack close to first water road, there were several deep shafts there, some of the best looking blue azure I had ever seen came out of those mines, when I can think of more I will post it,NP

np...doc roy...is that doc palmer?

 

[sdcfia]

sdcfia, Thanks, at least someone on here can post something else on here for comparison to the matchbox NP.

Yes, that matchbox is a stunning piece all right. If we could only establish that Goldman & Co bought it from Dick Holmes, then we could feel more confident that it came from Jacob Waltz. Otherwise, it could have come from any number of sources, and tagged as "Dutchman ore" to further enhance its value.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'd evening I was incorrect - you will never know how much that hurt to admit that . Seriousl the Dead Horse mine was it's origninal name, not the productive one, and it wasn;t on Rabual., but New IIreland, sniff Go look for - Lihir gold now is part of Newcrest Mining group on Lihir island in the New Ireland Provence.

 

[cactusjumper]

All,

Just to be clear on how I acquire much of my knowledge, many things are gifted to me by those who have already done the legwork. I search out and develop good sources, sometimes not so good. Those of you who know my history, as well as others on these sites, know what I'm talking about. One thing I have learned through some bad experiences, is to check everything my sources tell me, just to make sure their sources were correct.

Those who know my history, know that I have disproved a number of well accepted stories through thorough research. That research does not come cheap, in time or money. I have paid my dues and more than paid my way in everything I do. The Frank Alkire story is one such case. Many of the "true" facts I have uncovered I have passed along to other researchers, free of charge.

Good luck to you all,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Not Peralta]

Amigo's and Amigo-ettes,Facts,Facts,Facts, How can anyone claim to have found the Lost Dutchmans Mine,When no one can even Factually prove that there ever was such a mine. The alleged gold that Jacob Waltz supposedly had under his bed when he died could have been an accumulation of different gold from different mines in cal,nev,az, or could have been his payoff for his claims that he sold in the Bradshaw's, After all,He was supposedly a Prospector, Where's the Facts behind this Story. please no hearsay or speculations,only Facts.Thank You.NP

 

[cactusjumper]

np,

If you know the published Frank Alkire story, and followed my research on the man, you would know there are facts and there are fictional accounts of his being present around the time of Jacob Waltz's death. His life is very well documented in his own writings, which I purchased a number of years ago. He never, in all his writings, including private letters, mentions Jacob Waltz or any of the other players we are told were around him at the time of his death.

He is mentioned in census reports as being a miner. He is also listed as a principle in mines, outside the Superstitions. Those are documented facts. You are a little late in the game of trying to confirm that Jacob Waltz was involved in mining.

Those are facts.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Not Peralta]

Amigo,Why is it that every time someone ask or mentions the facts behind this story there's always a few that want to change the subject, I could care less if Jacob Waltz was a prospector or gold buyer, or not, I am concerned about the gold under his bed at the time of his death,and were it came from ,which the story of his lost mine is based on, what real facts do you have on that.NP

 

[nobodie]

So you are saying that Waltz HAD gold under his bed, but don't know where it came from.

 

[cactusjumper]

Amigo,Why is it that every time someone ask or mentions the facts behind this story there's always a few that want to change the subject, I could care less if Jacob Waltz was a prospector or gold buyer, or not, I am concerned about the gold under his bed at the time of his death,and were it came from ,which the story of his lost mine is based on, what real facts do you have on that.NP

NP,

For someone who presented his own facts for the Burn's Ranch Mission, and the LDM being in Spirit Mountain.......etc., I doubt you will get much traction finding fault with our thought process' or "facts".

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Hal Croves]

In April 1969 George Brownie Holmes gave testimony to an affidavit concerning a Matchbox made from gold ore from the mine of Jacob Waltz, the "Lost Dutchman Mine" of the Superstition Mountains of Arizona. The affidavit explains the complete circumstances of how Waltz's gold came to be crafted into this Matchbox and the line of succession and how George Brownie Holmes came to be the owner of the Matchbox. Not many in the Dutchman community have seen this important affidavit. It is proof that Jacob Waltz indeed had gold and that his mine and gold were known to many in Phoenix in 1891 and that his gold was assayed and remains to this day in a Matchbox and other items of Jewelry made from that gold.



STATE OF ARIZONA }
County of Maricopa }

BEFORE ME, J Yenerich, a Notary Public in and for the said County, State of Arizona, on this day personally appeared Mr. George Holmes, to me well known, and who, after being duly sworn, deposes and says that the following testimony is true to the best of his knowledge.

My name is George Holmes, often known as “Brownie” Holmes, of Phoenix, Arizona.

My family were Arizona pioneers. My grandfather, R. J. Holmes Sr., landed at the present site of Yuma in 1847. He was from Holmes County, Mississippi, and graduated from college at Ann Arbor, Michigan as a geologist and mineralogist. He found gold at La Paz in 1853 nearly ten years before Pauline Weaver’s discovery.

My father was R. J. Holmes, Jr., often known as Dick Holmes, was born at Old Fort Whipple in 1865. He ranched in Bloody Basin, where Holmes Creek and Holmes Canyon were named for him. He was a civilian packer for the Army, having packed for Al Sieber, among others. He married my mother in 1889 in Tempe. I was born in Phoenix in 1892.

My father knew Jacob Waltz, in later years known as “The Dutchman”. Waltz’ friends were convinced he was operating a hidden gold mine in the Superstition Mountains.

Following heavy rains and floods in February, 1891, in which his adobe fell, Waltz made his home with Mrs. Julia Thomas, a colored woman, near the corner of Jackson and 2nd Avenue in Phoenix. She was married to Emil Thomas, but later married Al Schaffer. Both Mrs. Thomas and Schaffer were religious mystics.

Waltz died in October, 1891, at Mrs. Thomas’ home. On his deathbed he gave my father a miner’s candle box full of gold ore, which he had under his bed. He also made a lengthy deathbed revelation regarding the history and location of the source of the gold, since called “The Lost Dutchman Mine”. The only people present at this time were Waltz, Dick Holmes, and Gideon Roberts. Mrs. Thomas, delayed in locating a doctor, and the others who claimed to have been present at Waltz’ death, did not enter the scene until later.

Keeping several pieces for specimens, my father sold the remainder of the ore to Goldman & Co., who were general merchants on East Washington Street, receiving about $4,800.00 in the transaction.

One piece of ore was taken to Joe Porterie, an assayer, whose office was on West Washington Street, in the next block west of Goldman’s. The assay showed $110,000.00 per ton in gold, the price of gold then being $20.67 per ounce.

Joe Porterie had been the assayer at the Vulture Mine at Wickenburg during its operation. The rumor that Waltz never had a mine, but high-graded this ore during his employment at the Vulture, was flatly refuted by Porterie, as the ore in Waltz’ possession was quite different from anything at the Vulture. A man of integrity, Porterie later became constable, deputy sheriff, and Deputy U. S. Marshall.

Of the unsold pieces, my father kept some as specimen ore, and also had jewelry made, consisting of a ring, cufflinks, a stickpin and a stud. These are still in my possession.

Of the ore sold to Goldman & Co., most was cleaned and the gold shipped. To my father’s knowledge, the only other specimen ore kept intact was obtained from Goldman’s by Jimmie Douglas. There were several “James Douglas” in the family, this son being the son of the President of the Phelps-Dodge Co., for whom the town of Douglas, Arizona, was named, and the father of Lew Douglas, the American Ambassador to England under President Truman.

Of the ore which Jimmie Douglas obtained, a gold matchbox was made up and presented to Gus H. Hirschfield. Hirschfield, of whom Leo and Charles Goldman were deeply fond, was a skilled mathematician, who at the time kept books for Goldman’s. A prominent Phoenix businessman, Hirschfield later owned the Palace Saloon, located in the same block as Goldman’s store.

I do not know by whom the presentation was made, nor the identity of the J.L. & Co. in the engraved inscription on the matchbox. I can offer a GUESS only.

There was, in San Francisco, a manufacturing jeweler known as John Levy & Co. who, during that period, made jewelry which was sold in the Arizona Territory. Both Levy & Hirschfield were Jewish, and Hirschfield was well known in the early West. This MIGHT POSSIBLY explain the inscription, it being understood this is NOT REPRESENTED AS BEING A FACT.

Hirschfield, a friend of both my father and myself, knew my father to have originally been given the ore by “The Dutchman” Jacob Waltz. Accordingly, he advised Mrs. Hirschfield that, upon his death, the match box was to be given to the Holmes family. My father preceded Mr. Hirschfield in death, and at the time of Mr. Hirschfield’s passing, the matchbox was given to me.

In turn, I have presented the matchbox to my friend, ____XXX______ of Apache Junction, Arizona. This affidavit serves as a statement of its historical authenticity, as well as evidence of ownership by Mr. __XXX__.

As a means of identification, the matchbox weighs 48.4 grams, and measures 2.489-in. long, 1.317-in. wide and 0.525-in. thick. It is engraved, bearing the inscription J. L. & Co. to G. H. H. It is made with inlays of gold-bearing quartz, with free wire fold stringers varying from .06-in. to .13-in. in width, and which would assay an estimated quarter million dollars per ton.

Signature: George Holmes

Subscribed And Sworn Before Me This, 23rd day of April, A.D. 1969.
J. Yenerich
Notary Public
Maricopa County, Arizona
My commission expires: August 30, 1970

View attachment 1326459
Gold ore Matchbox from James Douglas to Gus Hirshfeld

View attachment 1326460
George Brownie Holmes

View attachment 1326461
RJ Dick Holmes

View attachment 1326462
James Jimmie Douglas

View attachment 1326463
Gus Hirshfeld

View attachment 1326464
Goldman Brothers, Aaron, Leo and Adolph at their store in Phoenix 1891

Matthew Roberts,

Why would a gift from the Goldman Brothers or James Douglas to Gus Hirshfeld be engraved with J. L. & Co. to G. H. H.? It makes little sense.

If you are interested, research J. Liberman & Company of Wilcox, A.T.
Max Mayer was Liberman's number two man.

Liberman (Julius) knew the Goldman Brothers, Hirshfeld and, I think, the same James Douglas (I think). Understanding the connections now, my translation of the matchbox engraving would be: Julius Liberman & Company to Gus H. Hirshfeld.

Have a look.

View attachment 1331440
​

All,
Regarding George "Brownie" Holmes... personally, I think that Jim Bark said it best "Geo. Holmes has a very bad reputation in Phoenix. He is smart and quick of wit, but they all say he is very crooked."
And that is absolutely true.

Something to keep in mind when thinking about the Holmes Manuscript and Brownie's affidavit.


Hal

 

[Not Peralta]

NP,

For someone who presented his own facts for the Burn's Ranch Mission, and the LDM being in Spirit Mountain.......etc., I doubt you will get much traction finding fault with our thought process' or "facts".

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo[/QUOTE Amigo, there are no facts about the gold or you would show them, and yes I stand by the mission 100%,you never showed any proof other wise, and it was the stone tablets that lead to Spirit Mnt.not the LDM, no wonder you can't get your facts correct ,and yes I am glad to see the mission is still fresh in your mind.np

 

[Not Peralta]

Matthew Roberts,

Why would a gift from the Goldman Brothers or James Douglas to Gus Hirshfeld be engraved with J. L. & Co. to G. H. H.? It makes little sense.

If you are interested, research J. Liberman & Company of Wilcox, A.T.
Max Mayer was Liberman's number two man.

Liberman (Julius) knew the Goldman Brothers, Hirshfeld and, I think, the same James Douglas (I think). Understanding the connections now, my translation of the matchbox engraving would be: Julius Liberman & Company to Gus H. Hirshfeld.

Have a look.

View attachment 1331440
​

All,
Regarding George "Brownie" Holmes... personally, I think that Jim Bark said it best "Geo. Holmes has a very bad reputation in Phoenix. He is smart and quick of wit, but they all say he is very crooked."
And that is absolutely true.

Something to keep in mind when thinking about the Holmes Manuscript and Brownie's affidavit.


Hal

Amigo So,We are supposed to believe everything to do with the Dutchmans gold,because of the word of a thief that robbed a man on his death bed,while the guy was still warm,say's so. NP

 

[Hal Croves]

Amigo So,We are supposed to believe everything to do with the Dutchmans gold,because a thief that robbed a man on his death bed,while the guy was still warm,say's so. NP

You can believe what you choose to believe. I have come to the conclusion that Dick Holmes was not with Waltz that Sunday when he passed. There is ample proof that Dick was nowhere near Phoenix on the 25th of October despite what Brownie wrote in his manuscript. Despite what many believe. No deathbed confession and no stolen ore. Not involving Dick anyway. And Dick's sudden wealth in the following months (92') can be intelligently explained. With facts, not speculation.

But Brownie? Brownie was involved with some dark characters to put it kindly. And if you look at the record, at least before he was drafted (something he contested BTW), you would come to the same conclusion that Jim Bark did. Brownie was simply not trustworthy. EVERYTHING that George Brownie Holmes said concerning this mystery needs to be scrutinized. Where possible.

Hal