Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman mine?

[cactusjumper]

Amigo So,We are supposed to believe everything to do with the Dutchmans gold,because of the word of a thief that robbed a man on his death bed,while the guy was still warm,say's so. NP

NP,

You are getting Brownie Holmes and his dad, Dick Holmes mixed up. Why does that not surprise me?

The "mission" is not fresh......anywhere.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

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[Not Peralta]

NP,

You are getting Brownie Holmes and his dad, Dick Holmes mixed up. Why does that not surprise me?

The "mission" is not fresh......anywhere.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo[/QUOTE Amigo, there was only one person that took the gold from under the bed , how do you figure I got them mixed up.np

 

[Not Peralta]

You can believe what you choose to believe. I have come to the conclusion that Dick Holmes was not with Waltz that Sunday when he passed. There is ample proof that Dick was nowhere near Phoenix on the 25th of October despite what Brownie wrote in his manuscript. Despite what many believe. No deathbed confession and no stolen ore. Not involving Dick anyway. And Dick's sudden wealth in the following months (92') can be intelligently explained. With facts, not speculation.

But Brownie? Brownie was involved with some dark characters to put it kindly. And if you look at the record, at least before he was drafted (something he contested BTW), you would come to the same conclusion that Jim Bark did. Brownie was simply not trustworthy. EVERYTHING that George Brownie Holmes said concerning this mystery needs to be scrutinized. Where possible.

Hal

AmigoWhy after all these years can't someone tell the entire truth concerning this story,If someone has found the mine prove it,if they can,I am a firm believer that if there was anything at all to this story the only persons that would know the truth,was Jacob Waltz and Julia Thomas,no one else,If there ever was anything at all to this story.NP

 

[Hal Croves]

AmigoWhy after all these years can't someone tell the entire truth concerning this story,If someone has found the mine prove it,if they can,I am a firm believer that if there was anything at all to this story the only persons that would know the truth,was Jacob Waltz and Julia Thomas,no one else,If there ever was anything at all to this story.NP

I think that you are correct. Understanding the relationship between Julia and Jacob is at the top of the list. After that, I would look at Gideon Roberts. Bark tells us that Roberts was with Waltz when he died and no one else. And Brownie confirms this but injects his father Dick Holmes into the story. Which, as I have already written, could not be possible.

What I find most interesting in all this are the details that are omitted from our conversations.


Edit:

In fairness, I thought that I should include a quote written by someone who actually knew Brownie.

"Historians, Dutch hunters, and others have tried for many years to discredit his family as well as him on the facts associated with the Dutchman’s Lost Mine. Holmes never claimed he found the Dutchman’s lost mine, he had only sought its location. Over the years several manuscripts have been mistakenly accredited to “Brownie” Holmes. He denied writing any manuscripts up to the time of his death. Those who knew him respected him and those who tried to discredit him knew nothing about this man."

GEORGE BROWNIE HOLMES
T. Kollenborn


​

 

[Oroblanco]

Amigo,Why is it that every time someone ask or mentions the facts behind this story there's always a few that want to change the subject, I could care less if Jacob Waltz was a prospector or gold buyer, or not, I am concerned about the gold under his bed at the time of his death,and were it came from ,which the story of his lost mine is based on, what real facts do you have on that.NP

Well some of us have the opinion that actions speak louder than words. Dick Holmes version of how he ended up with the gold did not involve any thieving, he said it was gifted to him, at least according to the Holmes manuscript. There is a school of thought that Waltz did in fact give the gold to Holmes, knowing that Julia was a city girl and Reiney the typical young man that won't pay attention, and also may have felt that he had given Julia enough help already by bailing her out financially.

Do you doubt that Dick Holmes went searching for Jacob Waltz's mine? If there were no truth to it, why would he have gone searching?

Your ore examples are very nice ore but I have to agree with SDCFIA, it looks different to me, your ore has more red than we can see on any of the Waltz (Holmes) specimens. If I had a mine with ore like yours, I would not care what name it is called. Are you contending that your ore came from the LDM? Thanks in advance.

Similar ore NOT LDM

Hal - welcome back, good to see you posting again. I hope all is well with you.

 

[azdave35]

I think that you are correct. Understanding the relationship between Julia and Jacob is at the top of the list. After that, I would look at Gideon Roberts. Bark tells us that Roberts was with Waltz when he died and no one else. And Brownie confirms this but injects his father Dick Holmes into the story. Which, as I have already written, could not be possible.

What I find most interesting in all this are the details that are omitted from our conversations.


Edit:

In fairness, I thought that I should include a quote written by someone who actually knew Brownie.

"Historians, Dutch hunters, and others have tried for many years to discredit his family as well as him on the facts associated with the Dutchman’s Lost Mine. Holmes never claimed he found the Dutchman’s lost mine, he had only sought its location. Over the years several manuscripts have been mistakenly accredited to “Brownie” Holmes. He denied writing any manuscripts up to the time of his death. Those who knew him respected him and those who tried to discredit him knew nothing about this man."

GEORGE BROWNIE HOLMES
T. Kollenborn


​

hal...clay worst knew brownie very well..they were partners for years...clay never had a bad thing to say about brownie...if you havent already done so i suggest stopping by clay's and talking to him...he knew brownie better than any man alive

 

[Hal Croves]

Well some of us have the opinion that actions speak louder than words. Dick Holmes version of how he ended up with the gold did not involve any thieving, he said it was gifted to him, at least according to the Holmes manuscript. There is a school of thought that Waltz did in fact give the gold to Holmes, knowing that Julia was a city girl and Reiney the typical young man that won't pay attention, and also may have felt that he had given Julia enough help already by bailing her out financially.

Do you doubt that Dick Holmes went searching for Jacob Waltz's mine? If there were no truth to it, why would he have gone searching?

Your ore examples are very nice ore but I have to agree with SDCFIA, it looks different to me, your ore has more red than we can see on any of the Waltz (Holmes) specimens. If I had a mine with ore like yours, I would not care what name it is called. Are you contending that your ore came from the LDM? Thanks in advance.

View attachment 1331548 View attachment 1331549Similar ore NOT LDM

Hal - welcome back, good to see you posting again. I hope all is well with you.

One day at a time Oroblanco.
But, I am sincerely grateful for the kind words shared by people like you and EarnieP.
A generosity that I will not soon forget.
Thank you both.

Hal

 

[azdave35]

One day at a time Oroblanco.
But, I am sincerely grateful for the kind words shared by people like you and EarnieP.
A generosity that I will not soon forget.
Thank you both.

Hal

hal...i too am sorry for your loss...

 

[cactusjumper]

I think that you are correct. Understanding the relationship between Julia and Jacob is at the top of the list. After that, I would look at Gideon Roberts. Bark tells us that Roberts was with Waltz when he died and no one else. And Brownie confirms this but injects his father Dick Holmes into the story. Which, as I have already written, could not be possible.

What I find most interesting in all this are the details that are omitted from our conversations.


Edit:

In fairness, I thought that I should include a quote written by someone who actually knew Brownie.

"Historians, Dutch hunters, and others have tried for many years to discredit his family as well as him on the facts associated with the Dutchman’s Lost Mine. Holmes never claimed he found the Dutchman’s lost mine, he had only sought its location. Over the years several manuscripts have been mistakenly accredited to “Brownie” Holmes. He denied writing any manuscripts up to the time of his death. Those who knew him respected him and those who tried to discredit him knew nothing about this man."

GEORGE BROWNIE HOLMES
T. Kollenborn


​

Hal,

Welcome back.

I have been saying the same thing for years.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Hal Croves]

hal...clay worst knew brownie very well..they were partners for years...clay never had a bad thing to say about brownie...if you havent already done so i suggest stopping by clay's and talking to him...he knew brownie better than any man alive

George at the museum gave me Clay's number a few years back and told me to give him a call. At the time, I felt like an interloper and never followed up. My loss and something that I hope to correct in the near future. Honestly, this month, I have probably watched Clay's interview on Netflix a dozen times. He seems sincere enough and his loyalty and belief in Brownie is obvious. Clay said that Brownie never lied to him but, I find that hard to accept. It would mean that Clay knew that Brownie wrote the Holmes Manuscript and intentionally let the confusion continue. Or, that he and Brownie simply never spoke of it which, is doubtful.

T.E. Glover has proven that Brownie wrote the Holmes Manuscript. Brownie's life, right up until the day he shipped out, is dotted with controversy, criminal behavior, and deceptions.
Perhaps the war change him.




Hal

 

[Hal Croves]

hal...i too am sorry for your loss...

Thank you for that.


Hal

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal,

Welcome back.

I have been saying the same thing for years.

Take care,

Joe

Thank you Joe.

Yikes! Five years on the learning curve only to find myself where others have already been.


Hal

 

[azdave35]

George at the museum gave me Clay's number a few years back and told me to give him a call. At the time, I felt like an interloper and never followed up. My loss and something that I hope to correct in the near future. Honestly, this month, I have probably watched Clay's interview on Netflix a dozen times. He seems sincere enough and his loyalty and belief in Brownie is obvious. Clay said that Brownie never lied to him but, I find that hard to accept. It would mean that Clay knew that Brownie wrote the Holmes Manuscript and intentionally let the confusion continue. Or, that he and Brownie simply never spoke of it which, is doubtful.

T.E. Glover has proven that Brownie wrote the Holmes Manuscript. Brownie's life, right up until the day he shipped out, is dotted with controversy, criminal behavior, and deceptions.
Perhaps the war change him.




Hal

...i dont think its fair to call a man a crook because he raised some hell as a youngster...i think most of us were a little on the wrong side of the fence as a juvenile
..and you may be correct about the war changing him..i never knew brownie but i know clay..he is one of the nicest and most honest men in the ldm circle...he is also very smart and a good judge of character ..the clay i know would not have had anything to do with brownie if he thought he was a crook....you really should talk to him in person and you will know what i'm saying

 

[Hal Croves]

...i dont think its fair to call a man a crook because he raised some hell as a youngster...i think most of us were a little on the wrong side of the fence as a juvenile
..and you may be correct about the war changing him..i never knew brownie but i know clay..he is one of the nicest and most honest men in the ldm circle...he is also very smart and a good judge of character ..the clay i know would not have had anything to do with brownie if he thought he was a crook....you really should talk to him in person and you will know what i'm saying

I don't think that I used the word "crook" to describe Brownie and you are correct about fairness and the mistakes of youth. But words like bootlegging, prostitution, infidelity, murder (witness), they unfortunately define a part of Brownie's early life. Factor in the Holmes Manuscript and it becomes increasingly difficult to see the man that Clay remembers. I will however take your advice and reach out to Clay on my next visit.

During the war, Brownie was exposed to either chlorine or HD (mustard) gas and suffered burns over a large part of his body. Eleven days before the pain began to subside. I cant help but think about the long term effects.

Psychological Aspects
"available evidence indicates a causal relationship between the experiences of the subjects in chamber and field tests of mustard agents and Lewisite and the development of adverse psychological effects. These effects may be individual, but diagnosable, and may include long-term mood and anxiety disorders, post-traumatic stress syndrome, or other traumatic disorder responses"



Conclusion

"This study found that civilians exposed to sulfur mustard gas were suffering from a number of psychological symptoms even 20 years after exposure. It seems that providing mental health services and more resources allocation for this community is warranted in addition to efforts to manage physical symptoms of chemical agent exposure."


Hal

 

[Not Peralta]

Amigo's and Amigo-ettes,Have a Happy 4th Of July,NP

 

[Hal Croves]

Another view of George Brownie Holmes.....

"A message has been received from Sergeant George Holmes, by his parents in Phoenix, communicated to them through a letter written by Mile Blanche Laurent, the nurse who was caring for Sergeant Holmes after he had been severely disabled by gas. The letter, which was addressed to Mr. and Mrs. H. J. Holmes of XXXXXX road, is as follows:

France, Dec. 29, 1918.

Sir and Madam:

I am doing this task, since it is the pleasure of Mr. George Holmes, your son, to give you some details of the sufferings endured at the time of the great and cruel war which we have just passed through. A hospital nurse since the beginning of the war, I have known and shared in many sufferings, sufferings, moral as well as physical. Attached to an ambulance at the front near Chateau Thierry. I am caring for the most injured American and French soldiers in one of the most awful periods of this war. I knew and cared for your good son, wounded by gas, that awful gas which among your soldiers and ours has (-uised?) so many victims. They dispared of saving of him, so many of his burns were grave.

Stationed in my hall, he was the most wounded of them all. Naturally my pity was all for him since he suffered the most. Nights passed at his bed side are unforgettable for me. In his fever he asked for you, you, his dear and venerated parents. He also called for Rosie (his aunt), I did not know then who that could be, and tried in vain to calm him. At the end of 11 days, the pain became less terrible and little by little it went on diminishing. Very experienced myself in my affections, I understood much better his. Little by little a sort of friendship grew up between us and we made confidences to each other. He loves you very much and in his sufferings he was very happy that I gave him your portraits to be kept near him.

You have a son, dear Madam and Sir, who is a brave and true hero. He has a heart of gold and an exalted spirit. I have thought, in agreement with Mr. George, that some embroidery made by me will give you pleasure, so dear Madam, I dare to ask you if you would accept it in -remembrance of France and of the sojourn of Mr. George here.

I am 22 years old, rather tall, blonde, and have blue eyes, formerly laughing and gay are by this war forever obscured. I lost in it my fiancee, whom I loved greatly: a brother whom I loved much and 10 first cousins, who were like my brothers. You see, dear madam, that my family and I also have our sorrows. You will pardon me, I hope, the liberty which I have taken, with the assent of your son in writing these
words to you. They will bring you across the infinity of seas which separate us the friendship of a little French girl for you, dear Sir and Madam, and for the great and beautiful American nation.

I saw Mr. George yesterdav. he charged me to tell you again how much he loves you and thinks of you and to tell you also a "bientot." Goodbye for the present.

BLANCHE LAURENT,
France.

AZR 27 February, 1919
​

To all the veterans here who have answered the call, and to those who simply love this country, a very happy Independence Day.



Hal

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Gracias Hal. The loss of our family members is the same in peace as in wars except that in war there generally is a supposed reason.

 

[Garry]

Hal,

I believe you have asked the right questions regarding the match safe!

I’m somewhat biased because I have long believed that the match safe inscription made no sense as it was being interpreted.

A couple of weeks ago I contacted an individual who had handled the actual match safe and this is an excerpt from MY e-mail.

There is supposedly an inscription on the match safe "J. L. & Co. to G. H. H." I have seen several different photos of the safe but I have never seen the inscription in a picture. Have you ever physically seen the match safe and that exact inscription? I'm relatively sure that the inscription exists as quoted and I would like to do some research but I don't want to waste my time if the inscription is not genuine. It has been speculated that J. L. is the manufacturer but that just doesn't strike me as correct. It sounds more like a commemorative gift for some service rendered to a company. Perhaps a valued customer, etc.

Although the individual had handled the match safe, he did not recall seeing the inscription.

For me, it seems important to verify the existence and exact nomenclature of the inscription on the match safe. (Has anyone ever seen a Photo of the inscription and can they share it?)

Anyway you are certainly on the right track in trying to identify “J. L. & Co.

I think that at this point in time, in your research, you should probably forget about Jimmie Douglas, John Levy, Goldmans etc. They are a distraction, only associated with the match safe through the Waltz/Holmes stories.

Can you tie Hirschfeld to Julius Liberman? Are there other candidates for J. L. & Co.? Etc.

Good Luck,

Garry

 

[EarnieP]

Another view of George Brownie Holmes.....

"A message has been received from Sergeant George Holmes, by his parents in Phoenix, communicated to them through a letter written by Mile Blanche Laurent, the nurse who was caring for Sergeant Holmes after he had been severely disabled by gas. The letter, which was addressed to Mr. and Mrs. H. J. Holmes of XXXXXX road, is as follows:

France, Dec. 29, 1918.

Sir and Madam:

I am doing this task, since it is the pleasure of Mr. George Holmes, your son, to give you some details of the sufferings endured at the time of the great and cruel war which we have just passed through. A hospital nurse since the beginning of the war, I have known and shared in many sufferings, sufferings, moral as well as physical. Attached to an ambulance at the front near Chateau Thierry. I am caring for the most injured American and French soldiers in one of the most awful periods of this war. I knew and cared for your good son, wounded by gas, that awful gas which among your soldiers and ours has (-uised?) so many victims. They dispared of saving of him, so many of his burns were grave.

Stationed in my hall, he was the most wounded of them all. Naturally my pity was all for him since he suffered the most. Nights passed at his bed side are unforgettable for me. In his fever he asked for you, you, his dear and venerated parents. He also called for Rosie (his aunt), I did not know then who that could be, and tried in vain to calm him. At the end of 11 days, the pain became less terrible and little by little it went on diminishing. Very experienced myself in my affections, I understood much better his. Little by little a sort of friendship grew up between us and we made confidences to each other. He loves you very
much and in his sufferings he was very happy that I gave him your portraits to be kept near him.

You have a son, dear Madam and Sir, who is a brave and true hero. He has a heart of gold and an exalted spirit. I have thought, in agreement with Mr. George, that some embroidery made by me will give you pleasure, so dear Madam, I dare to ask you if you would accept it in -remembrance of France and of the sojourn of Mr. George here.

I am 22 years old, rather tall, blonde, and have blue eyes, formerly laughing and gay are by this war forever obscured. I lost in it my fiancee, whom I loved greatly: a brother whom I loved much and 10 first cousins, who were like my brothers. You see, dear madam, that my family and I also have our sorrows. You will pardon me, I hope, the liberty which I have taken, with the assent of your son in writing these
words to you. They will bring you across the infinity of seas which separate us the friendship of a little French girl for you, dear Sir and Madam, and for the great and beautiful American nation.

I saw Mr. George yesterdav. he charged me to tell you again how much he loves you and thinks of you and to tell you also a "bientot." Goodbye for the present.

BLANCHE LAURENT,
France.

AZR 27 February, 1919
​

To all the veterans here who have answered the call, and to those who simply love this country, a very happy Independence Day.



Hal

Wonderful post.
I repeat, Hal you have definitely been missed!

 

[EarnieP]

"...During the war, Brownie was exposed to either chlorine or HD (mustard) gas and suffered burns over a large part of his body. Eleven days before the pain began to subside. I cant help but think about the long term effects.

Psychological Aspects
"available evidence indicates a causal relationship between the experiences of the subjects in chamber and field tests of mustard agents and Lewisite and the development of adverse psychological effects. These effects may be individual, but diagnosable, and may include long-term mood and anxiety disorders, post-traumatic stress syndrome, or other traumatic disorder responses"



Conclusion

"This study found that civilians exposed to sulfur mustard gas were suffering from a number of psychological symptoms even 20 years after exposure. It seems that providing mental health services and more resources allocation for this community is warranted in addition to efforts to manage physical symptoms of chemical agent exposure."


Hal"

Your relevant and informative post led me to this extremely long word you don't see every day (or ever);

Psychoneuroendocrinoimmunology (PNEI), the study of the interaction between psychological processes and the nervous and immune systems of the human body.

Now I've got to figure out a way to work this word into the next conversation with my local Sonic carhop.