Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman mine?

[azdave35]

that must be new this year....makes you wonder what they are up to..lol

actually i know why...they want to know how much bond they can charge you...on a new undisturbed claim any "damage" that has been done can be traced back to you and only you...an existing claim you can always say the previous owner did it

 

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[audigger53]

O.K. Discovery! Until one has Discovery, one has nothing but a "Pipe Dream". You can have a claim filed at the County and if you can NOT prove Discovery, you don't have a safe claim. IE. You can file a claim believing that there is gold on it. Without Discovery (Assay Report), I can come along and file over you after finding silver or gold where you "Thought" there was and it is now mine. Discovery is 100% of mining. This is what blew away all the "mining Claims in the National Forest in California a few years back. People had files claims and put up vacation homes in the National Forest. Some were over 20 years old. The Forestry Dept. came up and asked for Discovery on the 20 acres they had claimed. None of them could show Discovery and were told to remove the houses that they had built on the claim, as it was not for mining but for a vacation home.

 

[Azquester]

Could Waltz's Mine be near the Massacre Grounds as a Mexican or once Spanish Royal Gold Mine?

I believe anything is possible. The more I hear the deeper back ground stories of the Pit and the hoopla surrounding the legend of the log covered door it leaves me with a taste of ah, maybe. I have yet to investigate the site myself for any signs of gold. Aerial views are not very helpful. My good camera took a crap these last two trips. I have a new battery in it now. Weather is the barrier. Bush wacking only bothers you if you let it. I don't let it and carry a Trambotina Bush Knife as a plant deterrent. I broke out my solar pack this time I'll need it for cell phone and camera. I have very light weight gear for cooking and lighting if I stay the night at the pit and listen for Waltz's Ghost to tell me where his mine is.

No doubt that map is of the route from the Massacre Grounds through Willow Springs and another possible two room rock house that was dismantled and used as the corral is a possibility. There is old mining activity near a lot of springs in the Supers. That I can see with aerial photo's. But the route Waltz penned was from the Massacre Grounds or nearby.


IMO

 

[Oroblanco]

Back to the Pit Mine/Silver Chief, one might wonder if any of the people who have claimed that the original claim notice was not accurate, have gone to the location on the claim notice? One person who has been there has assured me the Silver Chief is located correctly on the notice.





In some cases, I suspect that some who claim to have visited the locations are simply using other's work to sound knowledgeable. Inserting oneself into such stories is pretty common for a number of Dutch Hunters.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

Well I have not ever visited the Pit mine or Silver Chief, nor want to insert myself into any stories. So far I have not seen enough reason to want to see it in person, looks like a played out mine and no one has suggested that it is anything but a played out mine today. I have been in quite a few mines over the years including a good many played out mines, so would need some strong reason to visit the Pit mine. Remember, quite a few people have found old mines, and often enough, old prospect holes that were never mines, and concluded they had found the Lost Dutchman. Not every old prospect hole or old mine is recorded on the books. Considering that the record on all of the mines in the Randolph district indicates they were silver mines (a few had some nice pockets of gold) why would we conclude that the lost Dutchman's gold mine would be there? If it were, the ore should be rich in silver. The only assay ever done was not rich in silver, so pretty unlikely that Waltz was getting his ore from the Randolph district.

Side thing here but while you are required to actually make a discovery of a valuable mineral to legally file a claim, just top-filing over someone else's claim will NOT get you anything, and might get you arrested for claimjumping (or mineral trespass in a few states, not sure if AZ has that). The judge will look at the dates when the claims were filed, and if your claim is newer, you have wasted your time and money. Been there, done that, on the receiving end of a claimjumper, and we still have our claims in CA where so many others were thrown out on the basis of not passing the 'prudent man' test or failing to have a discovery monument etc. In fact we have the only remaining active claims in one district there so believe me, just trying to claim over someone else's claim is not going to win the case for you.

 

[EarnieP]

All,







These are my pictures taken of the saddle with Weaver's Needle framed in it.

Joe Ribaudo

Absolutely awesome shots Joe! The last is particularly magnificent!!!
You've found the Superstition Gold, Joe, it's in your stunning photographs!

 

[Not Peralta]

Amigo's and Amigo-ettes,, Should you be focusing on the Dutchmans lost mine,or, The Dutchmans lost ( mines ), Did all the Gold in the box under the Dutchmans bed come from the same mine, It could very well have been an accumulation of Gold from several different mines, as the stone tablets may be representing ,along with many more maps, Is this the way to the ( keys ) of the Kingdom,NP

 

[sdcfia]

Could Waltz's Mine be near the Massacre Grounds as a Mexican or once Spanish Royal Gold Mine?

I believe anything is possible. The more I hear the deeper back ground stories of the Pit and the hoopla surrounding the legend of the log covered door it leaves me with a taste of ah, maybe. I have yet to investigate the site myself for any signs of gold. Aerial views are not very helpful. My good camera took a crap these last two trips. I have a new battery in it now. Weather is the barrier. Bush wacking only bothers you if you let it. I don't let it and carry a Trambotina Bush Knife as a plant deterrent. I broke out my solar pack this time I'll need it for cell phone and camera. I have very light weight gear for cooking and lighting if I stay the night at the pit and listen for Waltz's Ghost to tell me where his mine is.

No doubt that map is of the route from the Massacre Grounds through Willow Springs and another possible two room rock house that was dismantled and used as the corral is a possibility. There is old mining activity near a lot of springs in the Supers. That I can see with aerial photo's. But the route Waltz penned was from the Massacre Grounds or nearby.


IMO

When I first started filing mining claims in New Mexico in the 1970s, we had to erect five monuments on every claim - four corners and a discovery monument at an end center location, where copies of the filing papers were placed. Adjoining claims used common monuments, of course. In addition, "discovery" was proven simply by drilling a ten-foot deep hole near the discovery monument. I say "simply", but it wasn't a simple chore, believe me!

About 1978 or so, the State dropped the hole-drilling requirement, although the discovery monument was still required. We filed several hundred of claims and claim groups in NM and AZ during those days of recreational mining, corporate grid-staking and tax shelters, and not once did we ever have to obtain, retain, file or prove mineral content of samples, assays or anything else on any of these claims. All the States and BLM wanted was proper monuments, proper filing paperwork, a reasonably accurate location map and the filing fees.

 

[Azquester]

Amigo's and Amigo-ettes,, Should you be focusing on the Dutchmans lost mine,or, The Dutchmans lost ( mines ), Did all the Gold in the box under the Dutchmans bed come from the same mine, It could very well have been an accumulation of Gold from several different mines, as the stone tablets may be representing ,along with many more maps, Is this the way to the ( keys ) of the Kingdom,NP

You mean the faked stone tablets? They do represent the fake Dutchman mine or the faked Dutchman mine's. At least in Travis Tumlinson's devious imagination they do. So I would dare say that the fake keys to the fake kingdom do exist in the fake map world. Gold from several different fake mines? Travis's Mind had many fake mines in it. Mainly just imaginary fixations of a dream he had to one day have many people chasing his fictitious maps. Sort of like the L(P)ied Piper. To bad many of us fell for his pranks and actually spent time looking for his fantasies. Don't fall for that trap NP.

 

[Azquester]

Absolutely awesome shots Joe! The last is particularly magnificent!!!
You've found the Superstition Gold, Joe, it's in your stunning photographs!

That looks to be from above Willow Spring back towards the massacre grounds. Nice shot's! I can't zoom them in photo bucket though...Good work Joe thanks Earnie for reiterating Joe's camera work! There was extensive prospecting going on long ago around Willow Springs. Perfect area for the story of the massacre as the Spanish were leaving they were attacked coming from near that spring with the rock corrals would be my educated guess.. Like the Dutchman said in a canyon of willows..

 

[Not Peralta]

Could Waltz's Mine be near the Massacre Grounds as a Mexican or once Spanish Royal Gold Mine?

I believe anything is possible. The more I hear the deeper back ground stories of the Pit and the hoopla surrounding the legend of the log covered door it leaves me with a taste of ah, maybe. I have yet to investigate the site myself for any signs of gold. Aerial views are not very helpful. My good camera took a crap these last two trips. I have a new battery in it now. Weather is the barrier. Bush wacking only bothers you if you let it. I don't let it and carry a Trambotina Bush Knife as a plant deterrent. I broke out my solar pack this time I'll need it for cell phone and camera. I have very light weight gear for cooking and lighting if I stay the night at the pit and listen for Waltz's Ghost to tell me where his mine is.

No doubt that map is of the route from the Massacre Grounds through Willow Springs and another possible two room rock house that was dismantled and used as the corral is a possibility. There is old mining activity near a lot of springs in the Supers. That I can see with aerial photo's. But the route Waltz penned was from the Massacre Grounds or nearby.


IMO[/QUOTE Amigothere are several concealed mines from the massacre grounds to first water, I have given directions to these several times, to my knowledge no one has ever looked,or found them, they are very old mines,on the same side of the mnts,not too far from the park.In the past I have even given directions to the old stage coach that someone dismantled in the wash above the massacre grounds at the base of the cliffs.np

 

[Not Peralta]

You mean the faked stone tablets? They do represent the fake Dutchman mine or the faked Dutchman mine's. At least in Travis Tumlinson's devious imagination they do. So I would dare say that the fake keys to the fake kingdom do exist in the fake map world. Gold from several different fake mines? Travis's Mind had many fake mines in it. Mainly just imaginary fixations of a dream he had to one day have many people chasing his fictitious maps. Sort of like the L(P)ied Piper. To bad many of us fell for his pranks and actually spent time looking for his fantasies. Don't fall for that trap NP.

Amigo, I was not referring to Travis Tumlinson's Peralta stone tablets. I said stone tablets.np

 

[cactusjumper]

Could Waltz's Mine be near the Massacre Grounds as a Mexican or once Spanish Royal Gold Mine?

I believe anything is possible. The more I hear the deeper back ground stories of the Pit and the hoopla surrounding the legend of the log covered door it leaves me with a taste of ah, maybe. I have yet to investigate the site myself for any signs of gold. Aerial views are not very helpful. My good camera took a crap these last two trips. I have a new battery in it now. Weather is the barrier. Bush wacking only bothers you if you let it. I don't let it and carry a Trambotina Bush Knife as a plant deterrent. I broke out my solar pack this time I'll need it for cell phone and camera. I have very light weight gear for cooking and lighting if I stay the night at the pit and listen for Waltz's Ghost to tell me where his mine is.

No doubt that map is of the route from the Massacre Grounds through Willow Springs and another possible two room rock house that was dismantled and used as the corral is a possibility. There is old mining activity near a lot of springs in the Supers. That I can see with aerial photo's. But the route Waltz penned was from the Massacre Grounds or nearby.


IMO[/QUOTE Amigothere are several concealed mines from the massacre grounds to first water, I have given directions to these several times, to my knowledge no one has ever looked,or found them, they are very old mines,on the same side of the mnts,not too far from the park.In the past I have even given directions to the old stage coach that someone dismantled in the wash above the massacre grounds at the base of the cliffs.np

np,

Something to keep in mind is that the Govt. Employ who took these pictures of the alleged Kochera Ore is also one of the people who took that ride up to the Pit Mine that I have mentioned previously. When I asked him if he thought the ore came from the Pit Mine, he stated that he was "sure it did".



This is the wide valley that leads from just above Willow Spring to the Massacre Grounds:



Looking west towards the Massacre Grounds:



I have always thought the people who "supposedly" were massacred, were travelling this route trying to get to the area of Goldfield. This area is very close to Harry LaFrance's Cave Of Gold Bars. Was that, possibly, a cache left by the Peralta's?

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Not Peralta]

np,

Something to keep in mind is that the Govt. Employ who took these pictures of the alleged Kochera Ore is also one of the people who took that ride up to the Pit Mine that I have mentioned previously. When I asked him if he thought the ore came from the Pit Mine, he stated that he was "sure it did".



This is the wide valley that leads from just above Willow Spring to the Massacre Grounds:



Looking west towards the Massacre Grounds:



I have always thought the people who "supposedly" were massacred, were travelling this route trying to get to the area of Goldfield. This area is very close to Harry LaFrance's Cave Of Gold Bars. Was that, possibly, a cache left by the Peralta's?

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

Amigo :coffee2 very possible,someone went through a lot of trouble years ago digging up the whole massacre ground and surrounding area. good looking ore,looks similar to what I had posted. NP

 

[audigger53]

Makes me really want to find the article from the Arizona Republic about the 1948 double cache recovery. 8 inch leather bags with processed gold ore. One trench 50 feet the second trench was 70 feet. In 1948 starting value was 26 Million dollars. Found with a WWII mine detector at the Massacre Grounds.

 

[azdave35]

Makes me really want to find the article from the Arizona Republic about the 1948 double cache recovery. 8 inch leather bags with processed gold ore. One trench 50 feet the second trench was 70 feet. In 1948 starting value was 26 Million dollars. Found with a WWII mine detector at the Massacre Grounds.

do you have the article somewhere?..i wouldn't mind reading it if you can dig it out

 

[Not Peralta]

Amigo's and Amigo-ettes:coffee2 , Just a few reminders that was fresh on my mind, Just for reference there used to be several rock fortifications up next to the cliffs above the massacre grounds, most likely used for defense and look outs,they were torn down sometime in the early 70's, there was at one time several ( oro )signs,very old,there are a couple of newer ones that were never there years ago , theres been so much go on there ,Its hard to keep up with,( Doc Roy ) used to have an old shack close to first water road, there were several deep shafts there, some of the best looking blue azure I had ever seen came out of those mines, when I can think of more I will post it,NP

 

[Azquester]

np,

Something to keep in mind is that the Govt. Employ who took these pictures of the alleged Kochera Ore is also one of the people who took that ride up to the Pit Mine that I have mentioned previously. When I asked him if he thought the ore came from the Pit Mine, he stated that he was "sure it did".



This is the wide valley that leads from just above Willow Spring to the Massacre Grounds:



Looking west towards the Massacre Grounds:



I have always thought the people who "supposedly" were massacred, were travelling this route trying to get to the area of Goldfield. This area is very close to Harry LaFrance's Cave Of Gold Bars. Was that, possibly, a cache left by the Peralta's?

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

Joe, I didn't know if you saw it but the second photo has what looks to be a man standing in the rock.

Nice spread!

 

[audigger53]

No, I read it in late 1963 or early 64. That time it was a "Filler Piece" because the main article was the extradition of the guy from Hawaii that shot his "Boyhood Best Friend" in the Supes over an argument about a 2 Lb chunk of Iron Pyrite. The story on the Massacre Grounds recovery, first ran as front page news in 1948 was a 3 page article. My brother read it then and remembered it for the same reason I did. We were living in Seal Beach Calif. I don't remember it from from 1948 as I was only 3 years old. LOL
This is why we both remembered it.
The Gov hit him for Treasure Trove tax (50%) and left him with 13 million and then income tax (which went to 98% then) hit him and he ended up with 260K from 26 Mill. Of course Arizona then got him for state taxes, but I don't know how much that was. Lesson learned was you can have the Fame or you can have the Money, not both.
I'm not living in Phoenix to go into the back records of the Arizona Republic and pay them for the article at this time.

 

[Not Peralta]

Amigo, Joe here's a comparison of the ore, And if anyone can match the ore to the matchbox better than this,please post it,just don't talk about it. thank you.NP
please click on to enlarge

 

[sdcfia]

Amigo, Joe here's a comparison of the ore, And if anyone can match the ore to the matchbox better than this,please post it,just don't talk about it. thank you.NP

Yeah, all those recent ore photos look like pretty good rock, but they appear to have too much red in it. Here's a few better matches.


Matchbox