Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman mine?

[cactusjumper]

nice post matthew...an old mining claim like that has probably had many owners over the years...some of the owners probably worked the mine and some didnt..anyone that owned the claim prior to WW2 more than likely worked it out of necessity to make a living..after the war the economy was much better and people didnt have to beat their brains out digging in the dirt to make a living..most people in the past 30 years that staked claims has probably not done much on that claim...most have never even been down in the shafts or tunnels (and if they did they wouldn't know what they were looking at) ...also 100 years ago most miners couldn't afford any milling equipment so they would have someone mill it for them or if it was rich enough they would bust the ore up with hammers and pick the gold out...but usually there was one guy in a district that had money (or an investor) and he would erect a mill...and he would process ore for the other miners for a percentage of the gold..as far as the pit mine being the ldm i would say it is....but hard telling for sure...the pit mine is unique because it starts out as a shaft going straight down then turns into a tunnel..which means at that level they hit a different deposit...maybe it started out as a silver chloride mine and turned into a gold mine ..hard saying for sure.....one thing i do know is nobody drills and blasts through 300 foot of hard quartz unless they are getting something pretty good

Dave,

Everyone knows I don't know $#!t about rocks, but I have serious doubts that the last people working the Pit Mine/Silver Chiefdid it for $7(+or-) an ounce silver. Believe you might need a bit more of a mine to make it worth the risk. On the other hand, if there was a truckload of refined silver in the back of that mine, it might have been worth it. My guess has always been that it was just a handy cache for ore removed from a number of the mines in the area. Have no idea why it might have ended up abandoned.

Waltz was worried about getting care in his final years. The LDM story may have been his insurance policy. If so.......it seems to have worked, right up to his death.

Just one man's uninformed opinion.

Take care,

Joe

 

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[Old]

Oh geez........just when I thought I was done with this thread <g>

If, (big if), this is one of the known district mines I don't think its the Silver Chief. Not the Silver Chief 1, 2 or 4. If it is any of them, my guess would be the Chloride King.

All that said......I still think THIS hole is north of all of them. That's just my guess based on distances filed and Mr. Carlson's maps. I could be wrong.

On another note I am trying to nail down time period for some of the information revealed in the photos available for all of us to see that shows the "recent" working of this pit. I have some feeler questions out to good sources hoping to get some learned responses. If anyone here has information jump in please.

When was plastic (polymer) baling twine put into wide usage? Specifically, red plastic baling twine. My memory tells me not until early 1990's but I could be wrong. I don't remember my barn being inundated with the color version vs. sisal type natural twine until the 1990's, late 1990s. But; I don't know if it was a western product that moved east or vice versa.

When was slip joint PVC piping (2 1/2" and wider) introduced?

Lynda

 

[EarnieP]

I thought we were shying away from this subject myself, for the good of all concerned.
However if your 'source' has some good photos, taken at the right angle, you may be able to see the manufacture date on that PVC pipe.
Heck, if you ask Gibbs real nice, you may be able to get Abby to check for finger prints on that stuff.

 

[Old]

I thought we were shying away from this subject myself, for the good of all concerned. <<<<

Drawn, like a moth to the flame (g)

As to printed date on PVC.......tried that, turned the photos every which way but loose. Nah, not viewable on what I have..... If there are more shots "out there" I don't have access. Drat~

 

[EarnieP]

I thought we were shying away from this subject myself, for the good of all concerned. <<<<

Drawn, like a moth to the flame (g)

As to printed date on PVC.......tried that, turned the photos every which way but loose. Nah, not viewable on what I have..... If there are more shots "out there" I don't have access. Drat~

"Just when we thought we were free, they pull us back (into the 'Pit') again."

I read some pipe manufacture dates are coded, where certain letters equal certain numbers. But I forget to whom I'm talking, I'm sure you already knew about coded dates.

Maybe it's best to let it go, at least until any statute of limitations have expired, if they haven't already. (I guess the date on the pipe would let us know that, sorry I'm a little slow.)
Of course, if any souvenirs were kept, say in a ring or even a matchbox, then it might be considered an ongoing crime and the statutes may not apply? hint hint. (If I receive any such items in the mail I promise not to look at the return address or dust for prints.)

[I'm getting one of those deja vu feelings, have I discussed that before?]

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Hello Old,

I'm not sure why in my opinion you are confusing the issue about the Pit Mine being the Silver Chief because there is no doubt or speculation involved.
The site on my topo map with the Blue rectangle is both the sites of the Pit Mine and the Silver Chief Mine. They are one and the same hole in the ground.
You don't have to take my word for it, contact Jack Carlson and he will show you the records, paperwork and the Silver Chief plotted on his version of his topo map and it will be exactly the same as mine.
This is not speculation or guess work, or throwing a dart at a map.
The Silver Chief was the highest producer of ore in the District and the reason the Trough and Millsite were constructed just a mile south of the Silver Chief Claim.

Also, in my opinion I don't believe the issue of PVC and color of twine does anything to enhance the understanding of is the Pit Mine the LDM?
PVC has been around for over 100 years and the technology of PVC pipe was defined in the 1960's and remains the same today.
As for anything being found in or around the mine, anyone could have been there at any time and left something behind and that includes yesterday.

If I may ask a question I would like to ask where you believe the Pit Mine is located ? Do you know where the Pit Mine is located and can you mark it on a map ?
I have been to the Pit Mine and can say for certain that the Pit Mine and the Silver Chief claim are indeed one and the same and marked on the topo map I posted.
There is no doubt or speculation about it. If you believe the Pit Mine/Silver Chief to be in a different location would you please locate it on a map for me and explain why you think it is where it is.

Once again, I respect your opinion and views I just believe someone may have given you some erroneous information about the Pit Mine's actual location.

Best to you always,

Matthew

 

[EarnieP]

Does this mean I won't be getting a matchbox?

 

[azdave35]

View attachment 1320970

Hello Old,

I'm not sure why in my opinion you are confusing the issue about the Pit Mine being the Silver Chief because there is no doubt or speculation involved.
The site on my topo map with the Blue rectangle is both the sites of the Pit Mine and the Silver Chief Mine. They are one and the same hole in the ground.
You don't have to take my word for it, contact Jack Carlson and he will show you the records, paperwork and the Silver Chief plotted on his version of his topo map and it will be exactly the same as mine.
This is not speculation or guess work, or throwing a dart at a map.
The Silver Chief was the highest producer of ore in the District and the reason the Trough and Millsite were constructed just a mile south of the Silver Chief Claim.

Also, in my opinion I don't believe the issue of PVC and color of twine does anything to enhance the understanding of is the Pit Mine the LDM?
PVC has been around for over 100 years and the technology of PVC pipe was defined in the 1960's and remains the same today.
As for anything being found in or around the mine, anyone could have been there at any time and left something behind and that includes yesterday.

If I may ask a question I would like to ask where you believe the Pit Mine is located ? Do you know where the Pit Mine is located and can you mark it on a map ?
I have been to the Pit Mine and can say for certain that the Pit Mine and the Silver Chief claim are indeed one and the same and marked on the topo map I posted.
There is no doubt or speculation about it. If you believe the Pit Mine/Silver Chief to be in a different location would you please locate it on a map for me and explain why you think it is where it is.

Once again, I respect your opinion and views I just believe someone may have given you some erroneous information about the Pit Mine's actual location.

Best to you always,

Matthew

matthew...i would say you are correct about the silver chief being the top producer in the group...you can usually tell by the name of the claim ..in example the silver king...it was the king of silver mines in the area..top producer....same with the silver chief....the chief producer..i've found you can tell alot by the name of the claim..especially old claims

 

[cactusjumper]

Oh geez........just when I thought I was done with this thread <g>

If, (big if), this is one of the known district mines I don't think its the Silver Chief. Not the Silver Chief 1, 2 or 4. If it is any of them, my guess would be the Chloride King.

All that said......I still think THIS hole is north of all of them. That's just my guess based on distances filed and Mr. Carlson's maps. I could be wrong.

On another note I am trying to nail down time period for some of the information revealed in the photos available for all of us to see that shows the "recent" working of this pit. I have some feeler questions out to good sources hoping to get some learned responses. If anyone here has information jump in please.

When was plastic (polymer) baling twine put into wide usage? Specifically, red plastic baling twine. My memory tells me not until early 1990's but I could be wrong. I don't remember my barn being inundated with the color version vs. sisal type natural twine until the 1990's, late 1990s. But; I don't know if it was a western product that moved east or vice versa.

When was slip joint PVC piping (2 1/2" and wider) introduced?

Lynda

Lynda,

There is some confusion as to the Pit Mine and if it is the Silver Chief.
____________________________________________________

Originally Posted by cactusjumper Matthew,

"I can't account for photos of ore samples from the Pit Mine. That is someone else's story and I let them tell it without my interference. Dave Leach is one of the most knowledgeable mining men I know in the Dutchman community. If he is convinced the Pit Mine is the LDM, it is with good reason. I have not discussed the issue with Dave."

Did Dave tell you where or how he got his mining knowledge?

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo
cactusjumper,

Yes, Dave has had lots of hands on experience with different ores and where and how they formed. He and John Wilburn are from the same school of geology and I put both those men at the top of my list of men who know geology inside out and why deposits ended up where they were found. When Dave talks about ore, I listen.

Matthew
________________________________________

Now I respect Matthew Roberts opinion here, as well as azdave35's, Jack Carlson's and David Leach. I know all of them, pretty well. I am not sure that David Leach is one of the "most knowledgeable mining men in the Dutchman community" but others know him better than I. David is the one who told me, in his opinion, the Pit Mine was not the Silver Chief. I also accept his dates for the last working of the mine. Not only do I respect the work he did on this subject, I also trust what he says.

I don't really believe it matters what the real name of the Pit Mine is or was. Two men sat in my front room here and told me the mine was covered when they rode up there. I believe the last time the mine was worked was in '97 '98 and 1999. I also believe it could have been Waltz's mine/cache. Both men mentioned two smaller caches that were open and empty at the time they were there.

It's a good story and there is plenty of room for all theories. I have not asked Jack if he is sure it's the Silver Chief, but would take Matthew's word that he believes it is. Many Knowledgeable people believe it could be the LDM.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[azdave35]

Lynda,

There is some confusion as to the Pit Mine and if it is the Silver Chief.
____________________________________________________

Originally Posted by cactusjumper Matthew,

"I can't account for photos of ore samples from the Pit Mine. That is someone else's story and I let them tell it without my interference. Dave Leach is one of the most knowledgeable mining men I know in the Dutchman community. If he is convinced the Pit Mine is the LDM, it is with good reason. I have not discussed the issue with Dave."

Did Dave tell you where or how he got his mining knowledge?

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo
cactusjumper,

Yes, Dave has had lots of hands on experience with different ores and where and how they formed. He and John Wilburn are from the same school of geology and I put both those men at the top of my list of men who know geology inside out and why deposits ended up where they were found. When Dave talks about ore, I listen.

Matthew
________________________________________

Now I respect Matthew Roberts opinion here, as well as azdave35's, Jack Carlson's and David Leach. I know all of them, pretty well. I am not sure that David Leach is one of the "most knowledgeable mining men in the Dutchman community" but others know him better than I. David is the one who told me, in his opinion, the Pit Mine was not the Silver Chief. I also accept his dates for the last working of the mine. Not only do I respect the work he did on this subject, I also trust what he says.

I don't really believe it matters what the real name of the Pit Mine is or was. Two men sat in my front room here and told me the mine was covered when they rode up there. I believe the last time the mine was worked was in '97 '98 and 1999. I also believe it could have been Waltz's mine/cache. Both men mentioned two smaller caches that were open and empty at the time they were there.

It's a good story and there is plenty of room for all theories. I have not asked Jack if he is sure it's the Silver Chief, but would take Matthew's word that he believes it is. Many Knowledgeable people believe it could be the LDM.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

i doubt if this debate will ever be settled

 

[Old]

The answers to some of your questions are:

Yes, I am certain (within 99.98 degrees of certainty) I know exactly where the Pit mine is located. Yes, I can locate it on a map. I can locate it from a helicopter and I have no doubt with a good gps system and better (younger) legs I could go directly there.

Here it is, slightly right of center:



I don't take issue with where you place the pit on your topo. Where we have an issue is that's the same as the Silver Chief location. Let see if we can come to any common ground.

How many claim sites do you believe existed and are between the Rogers Trough Trailhead and the "pit area". I say there are 5. How many claim sites away from Rogers Trough Trailhead was it to first Silver Chief claim (including Silver Chief site 1)? I say there are 7.

Jack San Felice has a good illustration in his book but its copy write protected. Tell me where you think his illustration is in error as to number of claims and which were adjacent to which. That (I think) will tell the tale of where we are coming up with different narratives.

Now, as to baling twine and type of PVC, I give you more credit than your question of me would suggest. You know darn well why its relevant.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

The answers to some of your questions are:

Yes, I am certain (within 99.98 degrees of certainty) I know exactly where the Pit mine is located. Yes, I can locate it on a map. I can locate it from a helicopter and I have no doubt with a good gps system and better (younger) legs I could go directly there.

Here it is, slightly right of center:

View attachment 1321062

I don't take issue with where you place the pit on your topo. Where we have an issue is that's the same as the Silver Chief location. Let see if we can come to any common ground.

How many claim sites do you believe existed and are between the Rogers Trough Trailhead and the "pit area". I say there are 5. How many claim sites away from Rogers Trough Trailhead was it to first Silver Chief claim (including Silver Chief site 1)? I say there are 7.

Jack San Felice has a good illustration in his book but its copy write protected. Tell me where you think his illustration is in error as to number of claims and which were adjacent to which. That (I think) will tell the tale of where we are coming up with different narratives.

Now, as to baling twine and type of PVC, I give you more credit than your question of me would suggest. You know darn well why its relevant.

Hello Old,

I have not read Jack San Felise book so I cannot answer about his placement of claims.
I know for certain Jack Carlson places the Pit mine site exactly on the Silver Chief claim.
Jack Carlson did exhaustive work and research of the records and went to the site to verify their placements.
I know the Silver Chief claim was surrounded by several other claims, the Silver Chief #1-4, the Morning Star, and one or two others. I can't answer how many claims were between the Mill site and the Silver Chief, that would be a good question for Jack Carlson.

I understand trying to date the PVC and baling twine but it's a moot point because there is no proof someone didn't come along even after the year 2000 and leave those things there. Someone else could have left those things there last year for all anyone knows. It proves nothing. You would have to assume lets say that when the last man left there in lets say 1999 no one else ever visited the site. It would be wrong to assume that.

Thanks for the informative response Old, I appreciate your input.

Best,

Matthew

 

[azdave35]

The answers to some of your questions are:

Yes, I am certain (within 99.98 degrees of certainty) I know exactly where the Pit mine is located. Yes, I can locate it on a map. I can locate it from a helicopter and I have no doubt with a good gps system and better (younger) legs I could go directly there.

Here it is, slightly right of center:

View attachment 1321062

I don't take issue with where you place the pit on your topo. Where we have an issue is that's the same as the Silver Chief location. Let see if we can come to any common ground.

How many claim sites do you believe existed and are between the Rogers Trough Trailhead and the "pit area". I say there are 5. How many claim sites away from Rogers Trough Trailhead was it to first Silver Chief claim (including Silver Chief site 1)? I say there are 7.

Jack San Felice has a good illustration in his book but its copy write protected. Tell me where you think his illustration is in error as to number of claims and which were adjacent to which. That (I think) will tell the tale of where we are coming up with different narratives.

Now, as to baling twine and type of PVC, I give you more credit than your question of me would suggest. You know darn well why its relevant.

i've seen the mapped out area of the claims up there but cant remember where i saw it...maybe joe or someone else on here has it and can post it

 

[cactusjumper]

Dave,

I have a full size map that, I believe, Jack Carlson sent me. Could have been Greg Davis, but I can't remember. I have a photo of it somewhere, but I don't think it would blow up that well. I will try to find it and get it posted. If not, I will ask Jack San Felice for permission to use the one in his book. Don't think he would have a problem with that.

Better yet, check out page 285 in Dr. Glover's new book. In it, they identify the location of the Silver Chief Mine. It's a Jack Carlson map.

Take care,

Joe

 

[EarnieP]

Told ya that Pit was edgy!

 

[azdave35]

Dave,

I have a full size map that, I believe, Jack Carlson sent me. Could have been Greg Davis, but I can't remember. I have a photo of it somewhere, but I don't think it would blow up that well. I will try to find it and get it posted. If not, I will ask Jack San Felice for permission to use the one in his book. Don't think he would have a problem with that.

Better yet, check out page 285 in Dr. Glover's new book. In it, they identify the location of the Silver Chief Mine. It's a Jack Carlson map.

Take care,

Joe

thanks joe..see what you can do..

 

[Old]

<snip>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>......a moot point because there is no proof someone didn't come along even after the year 2000 and leave those things there. Someone else could have left those things there last year for all anyone knows. It proves nothing. You would have to assume lets say that when the last man left there in lets say 1999 no one else ever visited the site. It would be wrong to assume that.<<<<<<

Matthew, I assumed (always bad to assume) you knew the date the photos were taken. They aren't a new item. That date sets the last possible date those items could have been introduced in the hole.

It doesn't matter if the Twine Producer's convention and the PVC Manufacturer's Guild convention have been held there twice since the photos were taken. That doesn't change the photo's record that the material was there on, or prior to, X date. Now if it can be nailed down when those products I'm questioning were introduced on the market that gives you date Y. Between date Y and date X you have a range of when the activity took place. Local availability of the products allows for refinement of the X/Y range to narrow the probable target activity date. There is method to it.

 

[Roadhse2]

"The 1950’s and 1960’s were decades of dramatic advances for PVC pipe and fittings technology. Encouraged by the results obtained from primitive pre-war PVC pipelines, several European and American companies realized the enormous potential for PVC pipes. These companies pursued the technology, both in formulation and processing. Systematic research and trials were successful in the development of effective stabilizers, lubricants and processing aids, together with processing machinery engineered specifically for PVC. During this time period, PVC pipe began competing with traditional products in a number of major markets, such as: gas distribution; sewer and drainage; water distribution; electrical conduit; chemical processing; and drain, waste and vent piping."

Taken from....The Early History of PVC Pipe – thePlumber.com

 

[Old]

Thanks Road......did your research show any dating for the slip joint product. I'm thinking that came much later than the culping type. I'm flying by the seat of my pants on that thought but I know it didn't arrive in my house until much later.

 

[Oroblanco]

Great post Matthew, and not simply because I agree with it. The Pit mine MAY not be the Silver Chief of course, it is not really possible to say with absolute certainty at this point since the original locators of the Chief are long dead. I think the Pit mine is the Silver Chief, OR possibly one of the other old mines that existed in that district in the late 1870s when it was organized and claims staked. I have not been to the Pit mine to examine it, but did get to examine specimens of ore from it, shown to me by Cactusjumper and I trust the provenance. It does look like silver chloride ore to me, and I am not an expert in silver ores but have been learning it. One key point of most silver minerals is the hardness, most are quite soft and can be scratched with a pocket knife or pin. That ore specimen had what appeared to be silver chloride and a pin did scratch it, meaning it is fairly soft.

No one is saying that the men who re-opened the mine and worked it in recent years were mining silver. I have certainly never proposed that. Gold does occur in silver mines, sometimes in excellent pockets. Based on what we know of this story, I would say the most likely explanation is that they were able to locate a rich pocket of gold ore, inside what was an old silver mine. When a pocket of gold occurs in a silver mine, it usually happens at some depth, indicating that perhaps the action of water percolating through the rock has caused it by leaching out the silver and leaving behind gold, but that is entirely theoretical as an explanation for why this happens. It is also possible they simply cleaned out a cache left there by someone else. It seems that an old played out silver mine would make a great place to hide gold ore as a cache, since few would ever think to look for gold in a silver mine. It is not that unusual to find pockets of gold in silver mines, even in Arizona this has happened a number of times including at mines in the Tombstone district, the Silver King district and the Randolph/Rogers district. But from what has been provided in the way of information, the men who mined the Pit mine were mining it, not just removing a cache which would hardly require the effort and equipment they obviously used.

Also have to agree that pursuing leads like the PVC pipe etc are not going to prove very helpful.

The records available on the Randolph/Rogers district are pretty limited so we do not know if the Silver Chief was an already existing mine when it was discovered in 1878 time period, but it is certainly possible. With the various 'clues' that seem to fit this site, and the fact that we can link those 'clues' to the story of the Ludys and by extension, Peralta, it is quite possible that the Pit mine is in fact the Peralta mine from which so many clues originated. The Peralta lost mine story started life as a lost SILVER mine, not gold, and coincidentally Bicknell reported finding signs of primitive silver smelting having been done in a stone cabin, which he found by following the clues he obtained from Julia and other local sources. Had Pierpont C Bicknell not been blinded by confusing the gold with silver, he might have found the lost silver mine himself. Yes this is circumstantial evidence by definition, and speculation as well, but in my opinion (worth exactly what all opinions are worth) there is a very strong possibility that the Pit mine IS the lost Peralta mine of legend.

On the other hand, I am also convinced that the Peralta story and all the clues associated with that, have nothing to do with the gold mine of Jacob Waltz from which the ore found in the candle box originated. I believe that the stories have gotten mixed together, wrongly, almost from the very beginning, and quite possibly mixed by Holmes, Julia or even by Waltz himself deliberately or due to the confused thinking of a fevered mind in its death throes. Holmes himself, according to the Holmes manuscript, did not follow the clues on his first quest for Waltz's mine; instead he went straight to Hidden Water spring, re-tracing the route he had (allegedly) trailed Waltz on his one attempt to trail him to the mine. Julia and Reiney seemed to be trying to find a TRAIL, which would lead them to the mine and cache, but Holmes went right back to where he had trailed Jacob once before. The Peralta/Ludy story was in circulation in Phoenix before Waltz was even dead, odd that no one considered that it was possibly not the same mine.

Please do continue, although it is very unlikely this issue will ever be settled.