Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman mine?

[Matthew Roberts]

azdave35,

I don't personally believe the Pit Mine was the LDM for various reasons but since no one has been verified to have found the LDM the Pit Mine is as good as any.

The Pit Mine is hard to direct someone to without a map and is almost impossible to find unless you know where you're going.
I don't have the co-ordinates to the Pit mine but have been there on a couple occasions. It is not a long hike but as you say the brush is surely an obstacle. The first part of getting to the mine is fairly easy, or at least its the easiest part as just past the canyon with Rogers Spring you go to the left and up onto a high ridge. Once on that ridge you can run the top of the ridge to the northwest going thru several saddles until you come to a saddle that I think is marked on a topo map as the elevation 5000. From that saddle looking east the Pit mine is down in the middle of the thick brush you described. Getting down to the mine is an exhausting effort but it can be done. There was a large amount of trash, debris and abandoned equipment around the site but I don't think that was from the 1990's activity, if there was any activity then.

I was at the mine a few years ago with a miner friend who mined around Globe/Miami for many years and in 1979 when the price of gold and silver began to spike upwards he was hired along with other crews of miners to go back into all those old mines in that District and assess the dumps and diggings to see if they would produce any ore worth processing. There are MANY MANY mines dotted all over the hills where the Pit Mine is located. Crews went in and sampled every one of them, ran a few dumps and did a little digging but nothing much of value ever came from their efforts. Gold went to $850 oz. in January 1980 and Silver topped out at $50 oz. My miner friend told me that no visible gold was taken from any of the mines in that area. Silver in both native and sulfide/bromide form was present with non-native gold in microscopic amounts.

My friend didn't believe any mining went on there in the 90's and that the debris and equipment was left over from the 1979-1980 expeditions. He found one piece of equipment at the Pit Mine and showed it to me and identified it as having been used by the crews that scoured the area back in 1979-1980. We visited several other mines in the area and a few of them had similar things from the 1980 period laying around. I personally have trouble believing anyone seriously mined there in the 90's due to some other things I noticed while there. One of those things positively identified the miners from the 79-80 time period.

I don't think a lot of people realized the amount of mining and effort that went into re-entering those old mines in the 1979-1980 time period or even the fact that the area had been re-mined in 79-80 .
This of course is just my own personal view on the Pit Mine story.

Matthew

 

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[EarnieP]

Stroker, that 'strong' part rules me out.

In my youth I once had an old, banged-up, worn out, under-powered car that got so bad it seemed to take five minutes just to get up enough steam to make it through an intersection.
I know now how that old car must have felt. (in an anthropomorphistic sort of way.) ((Easy Bill, that has nothing to do with bushwhacking.))

 

[Azquester]

Having been to the pit mine, and knowing what I now know, I would think that the pit mine is the old Silver Chief Mine, and that it was re-mined in recent times. The mine that Jacob Waltz was in is still out there somewhere. I`ve been to an area where I think the mine is. A lot of information that I`ve gathered says I`m close. Maybe it`s a hunch or my gut talking to me, or maybe I`m like those that looked before me that came up empty handed. Either way I `m going to look one more time. It takes a lot of work to get to the area, you have to climb and it could be very difficult at times. So I`m throwing this out there, If there are any strong adventurers out there that want to join me on my next hike, contact me. After all, it`s the LDM we`re talkin` about. ps I think we can do it in 3 days/2 nights.

Stroker, Why suffer we'll just rent a team of horses for the journey. I've never been into the Sups for that long amount of time. Of course, this time of year it would almost be suicide if the weather gets hot! With that much time involved, safety & planning, are essential. You can rent pack trains for carrying your suppiles to the drop off point hopefully within a half a mile of the final destination.

It sounds like you have a high lift camshaft in your stroker. You're gonna need it for that journey. I had a Suburban with a 393 stroker in it once. It had as much power as a 454 but it also used just as much gasoline. I drive a Bronco with a 6" lift and a locker in the rear. I also drive a durango 4x4 and a Polaris Razor for journies. I had a Rokon way back when and used to take it into areas like state parks and such. Back when I was dealer for Rokon. Those were the days you could still go some places. Now they have most old roads into the really old mining districts down here in Southern, AZ blocked off.

We may be able to rent a helicopter for a drop off in there. Might save alot of climbing. Before I do anything with anyone with that much cash, time, & magnitude involved you'll need to convince me you've found soemthing worth it. That's a lot of trouble for a "It may possibly be the LDM".

But, I'm up for it. Just not until after Memorial Day.

 

[Azquester]

azdave35,

I don't personally believe the Pit Mine was the LDM for various reasons but since no one has been verified to have found the LDM the Pit Mine is as good as any.

The Pit Mine is hard to direct someone to without a map and is almost impossible to find unless you know where you're going.
I don't have the co-ordinates to the Pit mine but have been there on a couple occasions. It is not a long hike but as you say the brush is surely an obstacle. The first part of getting to the mine is fairly easy, or at least its the easiest part as just past the canyon with Rogers Spring you go to the left and up onto a high ridge. Once on that ridge you can run the top of the ridge to the northwest going thru several saddles until you come to a saddle that I think is marked on a topo map as the elevation 5000. From that saddle looking east the Pit mine is down in the middle of the thick brush you described. Getting down to the mine is an exhausting effort but it can be done. There was a large amount of trash, debris and abandoned equipment around the site but I don't think that was from the 1990's activity, if there was any activity then.

I was at the mine a few years ago with a miner friend who mined around Globe/Miami for many years and in 1979 when the price of gold and silver began to spike upwards he was hired along with other crews of miners to go back into all those old mines in that District and assess the dumps and diggings to see if they would produce any ore worth processing. There are MANY MANY mines dotted all over the hills where the Pit Mine is located. Crews went in and sampled every one of them, ran a few dumps and did a little digging but nothing much of value ever came from their efforts. Gold went to $850 oz. in January 1980 and Silver topped out at $50 oz. My miner friend told me that no visible gold was taken from any of the mines in that area. Silver in both native and sulfide/bromide form was present with non-native gold in microscopic amounts.

My friend didn't believe any mining went on there in the 90's and that the debris and equipment was left over from the 1979-1980 expeditions. He found one piece of equipment at the Pit Mine and showed it to me and identified it as having been used by the crews that scoured the area back in 1979-1980. We visited several other mines in the area and a few of them had similar things from the 1980 period laying around. I personally have trouble believing anyone seriously mined there in the 90's due to some other things I noticed while there. One of those things positively identified the miners from the 79-80 time period.

I don't think a lot of people realized the amount of mining and effort that went into re-entering those old mines in the 1979-1980 time period or even the fact that the area had been re-mined in 79-80 .
This of course is just my own personal view on the Pit Mine story.

Matthew

Matthew, Your opinion carries a lot or weight around these parts. If you know that much about the Pit Mine then how did all these gold ore samples supposedly come from it and how did David Leach get convinced it was the LDM?

It seems we may have some that want to convince the GP it's already been found no need to look anymore. If what you're saying is true. A few of the clues the Dutchman gave out is near the Pit mine. Indian circle of stones, two room house, pit above, audit below, those sorts of clues.
Here's an example on a red hill:

View attachment 1315309Keep that flame going it hasn't been found yet I guess. Please tell us why people have ore sampled from an abandoned silver mine with all that gold in it.

 

[Azquester]

Stroker, that 'strong' part rules me out.

In my youth I once had an old, banged-up, worn out, under-powered car that got so bad it seemed to take five minutes just to get up enough steam to make it through an intersection.
I know now how that old car must have felt. (in an anthropomorphistic sort of way.) ((Easy Bill, that has nothing to do with bushwhacking.))

At our age Earnie the only bush whacking we do is fueled by a full tank of Viagra Supreme. Or as some people might say, we had a mixed date with Ethel and we blended nicely.

But putting all those walking sticks aside you should give that car a tune up or trade her in for a newer model. I went shopping just the other day at the Strip Mall for a beautiful new model. Or maybe it was the Strip Club heck I don't remember...either way it was fun while it lasted. At least until the supreme ran out..in an anthropomorphic sort of way, I loved that car...

 

[cactusjumper]

azdave35,

I don't personally believe the Pit Mine was the LDM for various reasons but since no one has been verified to have found the LDM the Pit Mine is as good as any.

The Pit Mine is hard to direct someone to without a map and is almost impossible to find unless you know where you're going.
I don't have the co-ordinates to the Pit mine but have been there on a couple occasions. It is not a long hike but as you say the brush is surely an obstacle. The first part of getting to the mine is fairly easy, or at least its the easiest part as just past the canyon with Rogers Spring you go to the left and up onto a high ridge. Once on that ridge you can run the top of the ridge to the northwest going thru several saddles until you come to a saddle that I think is marked on a topo map as the elevation 5000. From that saddle looking east the Pit mine is down in the middle of the thick brush you described. Getting down to the mine is an exhausting effort but it can be done. There was a large amount of trash, debris and abandoned equipment around the site but I don't think that was from the 1990's activity, if there was any activity then.

I was at the mine a few years ago with a miner friend who mined around Globe/Miami for many years and in 1979 when the price of gold and silver began to spike upwards he was hired along with other crews of miners to go back into all those old mines in that District and assess the dumps and diggings to see if they would produce any ore worth processing. There are MANY MANY mines dotted all over the hills where the Pit Mine is located. Crews went in and sampled every one of them, ran a few dumps and did a little digging but nothing much of value ever came from their efforts. Gold went to $850 oz. in January 1980 and Silver topped out at $50 oz. My miner friend told me that no visible gold was taken from any of the mines in that area. Silver in both native and sulfide/bromide form was present with non-native gold in microscopic amounts.

My friend didn't believe any mining went on there in the 90's and that the debris and equipment was left over from the 1979-1980 expeditions. He found one piece of equipment at the Pit Mine and showed it to me and identified it as having been used by the crews that scoured the area back in 1979-1980. We visited several other mines in the area and a few of them had similar things from the 1980 period laying around. I personally have trouble believing anyone seriously mined there in the 90's due to some other things I noticed while there. One of those things positively identified the miners from the 79-80 time period.

I don't think a lot of people realized the amount of mining and effort that went into re-entering those old mines in the 1979-1980 time period or even the fact that the area had been re-mined in 79-80 .
This of course is just my own personal view on the Pit Mine story.

Matthew

Matthew,

I don't believe anyone is saying that the Pit Mine IS the LDM, only that it sure fits a lot of the clues. Many believe that it IS the LDM, but what you believe is not proof positive.

There were dates on some of the trash which established they were there in 1997-1999. In addition to that, I spoke to two people who had been taken to the mine before it was opened. They did not have any part in what took place there but were both familiar with the circumstances.

I was the first, as far as I know, to bring this story to light and post pictures of the mine and its interior. I, nor the person who provided the initial information and pictures to me had any agenda or axe to grind. The story of how he came to the mine leads back, directly, to the people we believe worked it. That story is further bolstered by two men who sat in my living room and told me how they had visited the mine prior to it being opened with this same person.

You are certainly entitled to your "own personal view", but it has little to do with what actually took place.

Good to see you have decided to start posting here again.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

ET TU Earnie Coffee helps don't believe those unbelievers that say that it is bad for you, they say that about all things that give one a lil pleasure, like Girls Heck they are now finding that it prevents Alsheimers, whatever that is ? Still have a bit to my 150 th birthday, pretty Girls are automatically invited, on second thought 'ALL 'girls are invited you guy s also.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Bill, what's Viagra Supreme ?? A new drink

 

[Old]

I very much enjoy reading everyone’s comments. Until “the” LDM is found definitively all points of view have validity.

In the for what its worth category. I “think” the Pit mine is one of Jacob Waltz’ mines.

I believe he knew of and worked three. I believe what we know of as the “Pit mine” was The Quartzer and was the mine Waltz and Weiser walked up on and found the three (or more) Mexican miners working. W & W mistakenly assumed these men to be Apache and dispatched them (eternally) with their long guns. I also believe this was the location where W & W were working when the mule broke up the camp destroying the supplies which caused Waltz to have to go back to Florence for resupplies leaving Weiser behind.

After Weiser’s death, Waltz (in my opinion) never worked this mine again. He was fearful of not being able to see or hear someone approaching while he worked in the pit. He had firsthand experience in what could happen if you did.

My opinion ……….what we call the “LDM” is on the same vein but some distance east of this location. This would have been what Waltz called “the Placer”. Whether it was indeed a placer deposit washed down, or a close to surface outcropping I don’t know. Regardless, Waltz felt it a more secure location (relatively speaking).

Each to is own, and happy hunting till its found. But my bet is on this area. Folks that don’t put much stock in this area aren’t (IMO) putting enough stock in John Reed and much later, Ted Cox’s descriptions. If the stories are true, which I believe them to be, of what HAS been found here, what more would you need for proof?

Matthew, I know I pick on you a lot. I do respect your immense knowledge of the area and its history. I just respectfully disagree with your conclusion on this matter.

We have the pictures of recent excavation of this area. If, as you believe, no minerals of extraction value where found in this (THIS) hole in the 1970/1980. Please tell me why someone(s) would go to the trouble of reopening and extending this pit an additional 200+ feet down over three hot summers under penalty of incarceration and a crippling monetary fine? And; excavating it with precision and purpose? If you found nothing in the first 10 feet worth getting your backside slammed into the hoosegow rooming with Bubba why would you continue to dig?

The pictures aren’t mine to post but a quick search of google images key words Pit Mine Lost Dutchman will get you started. I have more pictures gathered from nonpublic sources that show beyond reasonable doubt trash elements date specific.

Over the years the LDM clues have been mixed, fabricated and garbled together. When I boil down what I believe can be rightly attributed to Waltz’ directions, when and where Waltz was seen coming and going and much later, what Reed said, and what Herman Petrash said and did, and Ted Cox’s writings and maps, it all supports this area.

Were there other areas of mining activity? Sure there were. Loads of it. But if the mission is to find the lost mine(s) of Jacob Waltz this is (IMO) the area.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Hello Old,

Not to worry about, "picking on me". I always respect and encourage other's opinions and ideas even if they do not agree with mine. I cant really answer the question you asked me because what you describe is not what I saw when I was at the mine site.
I don't believe I ever said that no one visited the mine site after the 1979-1980 time period, I just disagreed that the mining that is said to have gone on there in the 1990's time period actually happened, in my opinion. The site and area is well known to the mining community at Globe, Miami and Superior and has been for decades. The "Pit Mine" is not the only mine in that area, numerous other mines are within walking distance of the Pit Mine. The mine is a stones throw from one of the heaviest used hiking trails in the Eastern Superstitions. I'm certain a lot of people have been in and out of those old mines over the past 36 years.

Bill Riley,

I can't account for photos of ore samples from the Pit Mine. That is someone else's story and I let them tell it without my interference. Dave Leach is one of the most knowledgeable mining men I know in the Dutchman community. If he is convinced the Pit Mine is the LDM, it is with good reason. I have not discussed the issue with Dave.

Best,

Matthew

 

[sgtfda]

A group of us tried from the Rogers side and the brush stopped us cold on the ridge top. A chain saw is needed! We made it to the ore cart mine just over the hill.

 

[Old]

Thanks Matthew,

Good debate is never a bad thing. Even if we still end up on opposite ends of the discussion.

 

[Azquester]

A group of us tried from the Rogers side and the brush stopped us cold on the ridge top. A chain saw is needed! We made it to the ore cart mine just over the hill.
View attachment 1315530

Did you say old fart mine? Oh.. I see, ORE CART MINE! Fill that sucker full of stones and roll it through the trees, hell, ride it down like old Indiana Jones would! Just don't forget to "Cover your Heart Indy"!

It sounds like old Jacob's mine, "go down to the end of the canyon because you can't get there from up above".

"There are other prospects nearby"

"Nasty scrub trees near the mine".

"You'll never find it because you have to be right on top the mine before you can see it".

Do it next time take a chainsaw I would. Or a pack of goats...small excavator...sammy the bull...or do it the easy way.

Oops! My campfire got out of hand! Do you have the GPS coordinates for the exact location? I want to see it on GE.

Thx

 

[cactusjumper]

Matthew,

"I can't account for photos of ore samples from the Pit Mine. That is someone else's story and I let them tell it without my interference. Dave Leach is one of the most knowledgeable mining men I know in the Dutchman community. If he is convinced the Pit Mine is the LDM, it is with good reason. I have not discussed the issue with Dave."

Did Dave tell you where or how he got his mining knowledge?

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[deducer]

Matthew,

"I can't account for photos of ore samples from the Pit Mine. That is someone else's story and I let them tell it without my interference. Dave Leach is one of the most knowledgeable mining men I know in the Dutchman community. If he is convinced the Pit Mine is the LDM, it is with good reason. I have not discussed the issue with Dave."

Did Dave tell you where or how he got his mining knowledge?

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

Joe, why does it feel like you're interrogating Matthew?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Bill, a locker on the rear only ?? Down here we use them on both, , they and chains are the only way to partially handle
wet adobie. Lugs are usless, they quickly fill up giving a smaooth effective tread.

 

[Azquester]

Bill, a locker on the rear only ?? Down here we use them on both, , they and chains are the only way to partially handle
wet adobie. Lugs are usless, they quickly fill up giving a smaooth effective tread.

I wanted a locker in the front. But the 4x4 shop told me if I did that I would need full roll cages as it would simply climb a tree and flip over!

My OJ Bronco is all I need right now. Since lifting it and installing the electric locker it goes just about anywhere I need. Before that when it was stock it would get stuck on an ant hill. I just serviced it yesterday and I was about to walk out the door for an adventure in the desert when I stopped a while. I was playing with my Grand daughter Ally she picked up a plastic AR15 her brother had in his play collection and pointed at my face. I wasn't to afraid because it was just a plastic gun so I went along with it. That is, until she took the barrel of the plastic rifle and with both arms as hard as she could gouged my left eye all the way back into the eye socket!

I spent the rest of the day taking pain meds and resting looking for an emergency opthamologist. Never found a Doctor so I let it heal on its own. Blood was oozing out of my eye and yes, I have a black eye! Today it's better. No, she was not spanked shes only 4 years old. She knows what she did was wrong and she was sorry for it.

I'll never trust her again though. I'll make sure I have eye protection next time when I play with her!

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Matthew,

"I can't account for photos of ore samples from the Pit Mine. That is someone else's story and I let them tell it without my interference. Dave Leach is one of the most knowledgeable mining men I know in the Dutchman community. If he is convinced the Pit Mine is the LDM, it is with good reason. I have not discussed the issue with Dave."

Did Dave tell you where or how he got his mining knowledge?

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

cactusjumper,

Yes, Dave has had lots of hands on experience with different ores and where and how they formed. He and John Wilburn are from the same school of geology and I put both those men at the top of my list of men who know geology inside out and why deposits ended up where they were found. When Dave talks about ore, I listen.

Matthew

 

[Azquester]

Bill, a locker on the rear only ?? Down here we use them on both, , they and chains are the only way to partially handle
wet adobie. Lugs are usless, they quickly fill up giving a smaooth effective tread.

A Little foot note Tramp, I went to the Opthamologist and they sent me to the army recruiting center for training. I said why? They said after testing my eyes they've never seen anyone who had 20-20 vision be converted to AR15-223 Vision because of an accident so they recommended I take Sniper Training!

 

[cactusjumper]

cactusjumper,

Yes, Dave has had lots of hands on experience with different ores and where and how they formed. He and John Wilburn are from the same school of geology and I put both those men at the top of my list of men who know geology inside out and why deposits ended up where they were found. When Dave talks about ore, I listen.

Matthew

Matthew,

I also listen when Dave speaks. I have said the same thing about you.

Good luck,

Joe