How sure is it that the Lost Dutchman mine is in the Superstitions?

[cptbild]

How come, with all of this chatter about "LDM Research", no one has mentioned the fact
THAT!
There are Actual Public Records about the Dutchman's
Partner's Demise!
These records & subsequent action(s), give away the general location of the LDM !
I KNOW!
1..Where
&
2..How to access these records!
Which,
"Doc" & I ,
WILL! Be DOing!
When our trip, which is presently on "HOLD!" (due to the present climatic conditions )
Gets us over to Arizona
AND!
Since, these "records" are public, we'll beable to get copies of them!
These "Records" will "set" a whole much of The Dutchman's story !

 

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[djui5]

Bill,
You know I'm extremely interested in these documents

 

[cactusjumper]

Bill,

Is there something in those "public records" that mentions Jacob Waltzby name?

Since you know all of these details, how is it that you don't already have the records?

Just curious.

Thanks,

Joe

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

I've got some stuff that was posted before all my posts were deleted.

Like the 1880 Maricopa County Census - posting only a part of it, you can follow it up.

1880 Federal Census, Maricopa County, Arizona (ED 18: File 1 of 9)

************************************************************************
Copyright. All rights reserved.
http://www.usgwarchives.org/copyright.htm
http://www.usgwcensus.org/
http://www.usgwcensus.org/cenfiles/
**************************************************************************

The USGenWeb Archives provide genealogical and historical data to the
general public without fee or charge of any kind. It is intended that
this material not be used in a commercial manner. All submissions
become part of the permanent collection.

Abstracted by Glenda McKenzie from public records. Edited and
formatted by Maggie Stewart, October 2004. Submitted by
Glenda McKenzie.

A volunteer has not yet been found to proofread this transcription.
If you are interested in doing this please contact the USGenWeb
Census Project.

Both above notices must remain when copied or downloaded.
___________________________________________________________

NOTE: For more information on Maricopa County, Arizona, Please
visit the Maricopa County, AZGenWeb page at
http://www.rootsweb.com/~azmarico/




Year: 1880 Territory: Arizona County: Maricopa ED: 18
Sheet No: 86B Reel no: T9-36 Division: Phoenix
SD: 1 Page No: 3 Enumerated on: June None, 1880 by: L. E. Barley
Transcribed by Glenda McKenzie for USGenWeb,
http://www.usgwcensus.org/. Copyright: 2004

=====|=======================|=============|=================================|=============|=====================|=========|=======================================|===============|=======|============================================================|======|======================================================================================
LINE | Street House | Dwell Famil | LastName FirstName | Co S Age | Mont Relationship | S M W M | Occupation Un | Heal D I I M | S R W | BirthPlace Father Mother | SNDX | Remarks
=====|=======================|=============|=================================|=============|=====================|=========|=======================================|===============|=======|============================================================|======|======================================================================================
1 | | | Waltz Jacob | W M 70 | Self | S | Farmer | | | Prussia Prussia Prussia | W432 |
2 | | | Starr Jacob | W M 60 | Self | S | Farmer | | | Prussia Prussia Prussia | S360 |
3 | | | Starr Andrew | W M 58 | Other | S | | | | Prussia Prussia




Also:


http://info.lib.asu.edu/archives/azbio/waltzj.pdf


There is alot of stuff out there that proves he was there. If you going the other website, you can see the originals. (before transcription)

Like from these:

http://www.usgwarchives.net/az/mohave/census/1870/0002a.gif


B

 

[pegleglooker]

hey gang,
The pdf link says that he came from California, anyone know from where

PLL

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA mi amigo Pegleg and everyone,

Pegleglooker wrote

hey gang,
The pdf link says that he came from California, anyone know from where

I could be wrong, (can't check my own books yet) but I am pretty sure it was Los Angeles. At least I think that was where he got his citizenship. (Corrections welcomed from anyone?)
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

B,

I hope Roy is keeping you warm up there. This seems a particularly bad year to be in cold country. When it gets to be eighty degrees down here, we are looking for out sweaters. Bad combination.......getting older and getting used to the heat.

Our Heidi used to sleep in the bed with us. At first, she curled up by our feet. As the weather turned colder, she started moving up, and would eventually be sleeping curled-up against my chest. Amazing how I still miss that.

You may have misinterpreted my comments about Waltz records. I am aware of the many public records that exist concerning Jacob Waltz. What I was questioning was this:
____________________________________________

[There are Actual Public Records about the Dutchman's
Partner's Demise!]
____________________________________________

Those are the records I would like to see.

Take care,

Joe

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Hey CJ,

I don't know if its age or my blood got thin being in AZ, but I sure ain't enjoying this weather!

Did you mean something like this?


http://genealogy.az.gov/azdeath/047/10472222.pdf


B

Waltz THOUGHT he died earlier, but he didn't.

 

[cactusjumper]

B,

Not exactly.......Too large of an age difference between this feller and Waltz. It is know that Jacob Waltz had a partner named J. (probably Jacob) Weiss. They were co-owners of the "Gross" lode. In the years 1912-1913, there was a J. Weiss living in Clifton, AZ (mining town) working as the Postmaster.

Assuming the document is authentic, the Ship Olbers manifest, shows Jacob Waltz and Jacob C. Weiss as passengers, with Jacob Waltz's age listed as 28 and Weiss listed and being 29 years old. The date of that manifest is Nov. 17, 1839.

There were many Weisers, Weisners.......etc. in America in those years. We were receiving immigrants from all over the world, and many of them were from a troubled Germany.

I would like to see a document connecting Jacob Waltz to anyone named Weiser, Weisner or Wieser.

There was approximately forty years difference in age between your Weisner and Jacob Waltz. Anything is possible, but that does not really match up well with the story.

Take care,

Joe

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

We should remember that old Jacob had a much younger person with him. Someone he might call a nephew. Waltz was too old to be in the armed services, but Weisner was in the union army - a clear difference in age. (I'm not talking about a Weiss).

B

 

[cactusjumper]

B,

Ah....yes, the nephew that Waltz murdered. I must confess that I have a very hard time with the Holmes story of Waltz as a serial killer. Are you thinking that the newphew was Waltz's "partner"? Do you know what the name of the sister's husband was? Now that might be the final word........

For the record, Waltz did have a sister. Her married name was "Schmidt".

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,
Not to be a butt-in-ski but...I think was Mrs O said was Someone he might call a nephew which is not quite the same as saying he WAS actually a nephew. I had a couple of "uncles" who were not related in any way, just very good friends and "uncles" in everything but legal standing. I don't think she is putting forth the Holmes version of events with old Jacob gunning down his partner in cold blood etc.

I have to ask here, suppose it could be proven (absolutely) that Waltz had a real person as a partner - (I think we know what public records Capt Bill is referring to) how exactly does this help to find the mine? Just curious of course. Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy and B,

I don't really have a problems with what might have been's. For a good part of this legend, that's all any of us have. The only story I have ever heard of Waltz, and a young partner, came from the Holmes manuscript.

Originally, Brownie claimed he had no knowledge of the manuscript and had nothing to do with writing it. I believe that was his contention, right up to the end of his life. Could be wrong, but will go back and listen to the taped interview he gave Tom Kollenborn. Believe they talked about that manuscript.

Do you have another source for this young partner/nephew? For me, the original source is more important than the story.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

For some folks, the "search for the Lost Dutchman" is as much a search for historical facts surrounding the legends as it is an actual search for the mine itself - in fact, I'd hazard a guess actually locating the mine (if it exists) is secondary for some people.

I've met some persons who have literally file cabinets full of research on the historical accuracy of the Lost Dutchman Legends - for those people, finding that next elusive documented fact is worth everything.

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote:

Do you have another source for this young partner/nephew? For me, the original source is more important than the story.

I would suggest checking the "Pioneer Interviews" done by the WPA, you will find a somewhat different version of Waltz there. (Still interesting if less dramatic) I have looked online and a very few of the interviews have been put on the internet. Sen. Hayden has a bio of Waltz listing his partner as Jacob Wiser adding that Wiser is said to have died at Walker's ranch about 1881 but does not mention how old Wiser was at the time. Kollenborn's version has Wisner traveling to Walker's ranch over twenty miles - wounded mortally - as an old man too. Now I know the old-timers were a tough breed, but which would make a more believable story, that an old man, mortally wounded, was able to run on foot over twenty miles, or that a younger man, mortally wounded, could do it?

Walker was convinced Wisner could not live long and asked him to
draw a detailed map as to the location of the mine. Wisner agreed to draw
the map in return for a decent burial. He sketched the map that Walker
had requested, hence the ‘Walker-Wisner Map’.

Unfortunately the Walker-Wisner map has been floating around in public for some time but has not led anyone to find the LDM, at least as far as I know. That is why I was curious about what possible help it could be to find the mine, if we could prove Wiser existed. (It can be proven.) It is possible that the Walker-Wisner map we have is NOT a correct copy too, in fact I would bet this is the case.

Oroblanco

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

CJ,

I'm not really sure why the existence of Jacob Waltz' sister would have any bearing on the finding of the mine, however, do you think Elizabeth was really Waltz' sister? And if so, how and when did she get to Kansas? And why didn't she travel with him?

B

 

[cactusjumper]

Dear Das Oroblanco's,

The sister married in Germany and came to the States at a later date. It is only important because her husbands name was Schmidt, and any nephew (from the sister) would have the same last name.

As for the Walker-Wieser Map, it certainly does lead to a mine. It is marked by an X, which happens to be exactly where a Stone Map X is located. On top of that, there is a mine at that specific location. It is sealed and has a modern-day claim marker in front of it. In addition to that mine, I have been told there are other mines on the same ridge. Although I have never found them, I trust the honesty of my source completely.

For anyone interested in locating that ridge and mine, you need only replace Superstition Peak for the Picacho shown on the maps. The reason no one has found anything is because they all, pretty much, believed "Picacho" was Weaver's Needle.

Now that is my own conclusion taking the overall weight of all of the evidence that has come down the pike, over the years. While I have not searched for the LDM, I have been assessing the evidence for fifty-years now. I believed from early on, that the LDM had been found and worked out. With that belief, it has been fun (no pressure) trying to put the pieces of the puzzle together. I found, like a jigsaw, that they all come together and make a pretty good picture/story.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA mi amigo Cactusjumper and everyone,

Cactusjumper wrote

The sister married in Germany and came to the States at a later date. It is only important because her husbands name was Schmidt, and any nephew (from the sister) would have the same last name.

I get that, but never was convinced of the Holmes version with old Jake killing his "nephew" in cold blood, nor that his partner was actually a nephew in the legal sense of the word.

CJ also wrote:

s for the Walker-Wieser Map, it certainly does lead to a mine.

Not to sound like a 'doubting Thomas' but how can we be sure that is a mine, and not someone's treasure-hole dug in a spot they believed would "fit" this map? Are there tailings present, with actual gold? Even in the most played-out gold mine, you can still find traces of the ore and/or vein that was being worked, it is virtually impossible to extract every last tiny bit of gold as I am sure you know well. If it is truly a mine and not a 'treasure hole' does the ore resemble (or even match perfectly) with the few examples that exist of Waltz's gold?

Now you have got me curious, and if I should happen to make it to the vicinity of the Supers I may just have to go and see in person. It would be rather shocking if the Walker-Weiser map turned out to be not only genuine but ACCURATE - in which case it would be a nearly singular example of lost-treasure maps! The fact that the map has been 'in circulation' for so long without apparently leading anyone to find the LDM pretty well put it in the "interesting but not too useful" file for me, just as I was curious about how it would be helpful to have proof of Weiser - not a bit of info that would lead me (personally) to find that mine, at least I could not see how it could.

I also DO understand about folks' desire to have as much historical documentation as possible, not for the sake of finding the lost mine but for the historical value alone - just that this has not been my own personal interest! As I have freely admitted several times, the gold is valuable to me!

CJ also wrote

I found, like a jigsaw, that they all come together and make a pretty good picture/story.

Ever thought about compiling your research and experiences into a book amigo? I would sure buy a copy! (Even if you refused to autograph it for me! )
Oroblanco
<EDIT ADDED>
PS here is a better view of the Walker-Weiser map

If you look it over, you immediately see one major 'red flag' (for me anyway) in that the geographic notation is partly written in Spanish or someone's attempt at Spanish. Why should a Dutchman (even if born here in the USA of Germanic family) choose to draw up a map and make any notations in Spanish? That does not make sense to me.

 

[pegleglooker]

Wouldn't he have learned the names in Spanish and Des Buttes is German and Spanish

PLL

 

[Oroblanco]

Good catch amigo - but then why such a mix, of English, German and Spanish? Always struck me as a 'red flag' but...