How sure is it that the Lost Dutchman mine is in the Superstitions?

[mrs.oroblanco]

Spirits of the Border - The History of New Mexico IV - and here's a link for you.

I am looking for another link I have somewhere also - which specifically talks about the Aqua Fria River area and where the state of Arizona was considering the area for public prospecting access (though, my other computer crashed, and it might be on that one).

http://books.google.com/books?id=Hm...snum=2&ved=0CBMQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=&f=false


He is not the only one on the roof, you know! This crap takes 3 pairs of hands - luckily, I have two left feet AND a pair of hands!!!

B

 

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[cactusjumper]

B,

Thanks for your reply.

I am unsure just how reliable Ken Hudnall would be for this kind of historical source. He deals in some less than scientific fields, and in this case gives no source for his story.

I have been on a few roofs myself, so I know what you are talking about. I used to own a roofing company with my brother.......back in the day.

Take care

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy and B,

Thought this picture might interest you:

My nephew and his family are here from MO, and we had the family over for a barbecue. Cooled down to around 95 today, so they all had a good time in the pool.

I imagine you are getting some warmer days as well.

Take care,

Joe

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

You've kind of have to be able to look at the reference areas of his book - which, of course, isn't on line.

He is definitely a different kind of study - though, I, personally, have to admit, that, even though he dwells in lots of different areas, from military to ghosts - he has spent a lot of time on research, as you might be able to tell from his resource references, and the fact that he has done much traveling for the things he writes.

There is a reference on sources, and where to find (where he found) the "easily documented" travels of Pablo and Miguel - which, I will definitely have to get for you (as soon as I get my old hard drive (from my dead computer) to give up my items - I miss the mass of information I have collected - I should have put it on disk, but didn't.

Of course, there is a lot in this world that is unproven scientifically, but exists never the less. (God, ghosts, an afterlife etc.)

I'm hoping to drop off my old hard drive in a few weeks (after the roof is on), and when I do, I will post the other info. (hopefully, it is not lost or scrambled).


B

Yes, we are getting our last blast of fall, I think, so we need to button-her-up - 95 degrees is hard to work in, too. Nice picture, though.

What part of Mo? My son and daughter-in-law live a few miles outside of St. Louis - a town called Florissant (sp). It seems nice there. Real close to LOTS of great food places. When he got married last year, I think I ate my way through the week! And different kinds of places every night, from Chili's to places I never heard of - yum - all within a few block area.

 

[cactusjumper]

B,

The Rendezvous is this coming Friday. I am beginning to feel that you two are going to stand me up.......again!

Trust me, everyone works when it's 95 here. Most will have to put on a sweater at 85. Sat in my truck for three hours today waiting for the parade to start.

I will need to look into your source. I believe it is worded exactly like Blair wrote it. The question is, who was quoting whom?

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,

Joe I have not found where I read that about Peraltas formerly owning the Valenciana mine in Mexico, but it is not a leap of logic I made on my own - I read it somewhere and never questioned it, as a quite peripheral tidbit I didn't see reason to question it. I have no problem with NOT accepting it as fact, as it is a quite peripheral bit of history that has little bearing on the later actions of the Peraltas who came to Arizona. However then I am left with no explanation for why they chose to name their new discovery in Arizona the Valenciana, to honor the folks who had the original in Mexico perhaps? I don't have an answer for that. If I find the source I will sure be happy to post it here, perhaps the author made a leap of logic which was unsupported by facts.

Cactusjumper wrote

The Rendezvous is this coming Friday. I am beginning to feel that you two are going to stand me up.......again

It is looking that way from here, but it is not for lack of trying. In our rush we have started making mistakes, which took up much time today just trying to correct them. Beth should not have held the promise of a trip back to Arizona before my eyes as 'bait' to get the thing done faster, gave me the excuse to start doing it slipshod. We have a few days left, and HOPING that the weather will cooperate.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Ladies & Gentlemen: I wouldn't get too wrapped up in mine names. They won't even start to look for one in the archives by name alone in Mexico city, too many have been repeated and variations given.

I believe that there are presently 5-6 Tayopas or variations.

All mines are given numerical designations called expedienties - file no.s. Then when a title is issued, a title no. But normally both are required for information.

I believe this practice was brought from Spain.

See example of a mining monument which has been in favor since Spain first took over.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Boy, Jose - ain't that the truth!!!

And, on that vein, the spanish also seem to use names for people over and over again, also. There are probably millions of Jesus', Manuels, Juans, etc.


Though, I never throw out any information I get from a researcher in favor of people who have all the knowledge, but cannot find the mine. (all the "dutch" experts.)

So, I try to take it all as a possible bit of the puzzle.

B

 

[cactusjumper]

B,

While I do read some books that fall into this description, I have a hard time using them as source material for my conclusions.
_______________________________________________

Spirits of the Border IV
The History and Mystery of New Mexico

by Ken Hudnall, Sharon Hudnall
Published in February 1, 2005, Omega Press

Spirits of the Border IV
Ken Hudnall, Sharon Hudnall
Change Cover Language: English
Format: Paperback
Dimensions: 8.9 x 6.1 x 0.7 inches
Weight: 15.2 ounces
ISBN 10: 0975492349
ISBN 13: 9780975492345
Subject: New Age / Body, Mind & Spirit
Body, Mind & Spirit
New Age
Parapsychology - Near-Death Experience
Body, Mind & Spirit / Parapsychology / Near-Death Experience
_______________________________________________

In this case, I have ordered the book and will read it. Hudnall wrote the book in 2005, while Blair's book was published in 1975.

Take care

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Dear Lamar,

Quote from "Tales Of The Superstitions" by Robert Blair: "Evidently it held little appeal for Miguel (especially under the terms of the six-way split required by the claim) for only three weeks later he sold his shares in the Aguila and the Aldama to one Hugh Forester for a total of $120.

Blair sources that with this footnote: Book 3, Deeds and Claims, pp. 236-7; Yuma Records.

As a fan of Robert Blair's research abilities, I assume you will accept that as one of the proofs you are looking for.

Take care,

Joe

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

CJ,



It is, as I'm sure you know, number 4 of a series. They (Ken & Sharon) have millions and millions of copies sold in many countries. (of their books, not just this one).

I find myself not using ANYTHING to come to a conclusion. Heck, if I had come to a proper conclusion, I'd be rolling in Dutchman's Gold!!

But, I have learned over the years, never to throw out anything. (though I do prioritize theories and info). What's the old saying?

"in every story, there is a grain of truth" (or something like that).

He's an interesting read (my opinion), on more than a couple of subjects. (I like their military stuff, too)

B

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

CJ,

Forgot to say - if you are speaking of the Robert Blair Collection that is in the Arizona Historical Foundation - it may have come from there.

I would think that the Historical Foundation would be a good place to do some research if I were a book-writer and was so inclined to do research about Arizona.

B

 

[cactusjumper]

Good morning B,

I have so much here, that I consider pure fiction, but at some time I did read them. Usually it gets put on my bookshelf and could sit there for years. One that comes to mind, is Robert Joseph Allen's book. About the only thing that makes me pick that book up, is when someone takes a quote from it, and I want to check the context of the passage.

I did notice that the Hudnall's were prolific authors. I have no doubt they know their topics, it's just
not things I put a lot of faith in. On the other hand, I have a number of books that deal with Templars in America. Don't believe it for a second, but it's an interesting subject of discussion. Might as well know the arguments for, as well as against.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

Joe - did you ever look through Blair's notes, etc... ? I remember Jack San Felice at one point last year saying that he spent a good deal of time going through a number of boxes of Blair's research notes (are those the ones at the historical foundation that Mrs. Oro mentions?) and he said Blair didn't necessarily come to the same conclusions in his notes and archival research as what he did in his book. We should ask Jack about that again if he's there this year.

Just as another aside - I think I already know what your thoughts are regarding Milton Rose, but did you ever read Rainbow's End and then get ahold of Greg's FIRST Rainbow's End handwritten manuscript? Talk about 180 degrees apart and totally different!!!

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Cubfan,

I know you are addressing Joe, but, yes - same place. Here is some links to what they have in their archives. Of course, you cannot read them online, but, you can go and look at them. These links will let you link onto info available, and where it is located in the Foundation.

http://www.ahfweb.org/download/Blair_MSS_24.pdf

http://www.googlesyndicatedsearch.com/u/ahfweb?q=robert+blair&sa=Search


B

 

[Ellie Baba]

Dear Oroblanco, Cactusjumper and others;
The original legwork on the Peraltas involvement in the LDM legend was complied back in the early to mid 1970s by a gentleman named Robert Blare (or Blaire, or Blair) and he compiled his findings into a book, the name of which now escapes me. His research was quite dilligent and when I started my own research in the mid 1980s I covered the same ground as he, however I then extended my research to include Mexico and Spain, neither country of which Mr. Blair could perform research in. Even in light of my expanded research, I reached the same conclusions that Mr. Blair had reached approximately one decade prior. Therefore, unless a new document has surfaced of which I am not aware of, I shall continue to stand by what is housed in the archives, my friends.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Hi Lamar,
I have a question for you and I am not trying to implicate you in any way as a result of your opinion based upon your interpretation of history past involving the Peraltas and the LDM.

The following is an excerpt from Jesse Feldman’s book titled, Jacob’s Trail the Legend of Jacob Waltz’s Lost Dutchman Gold Mine, chapter 2, page 120;

“To say that the Peraltas worked gold deposits in the Superstition Mountains in that era is bold, but to deny the Peralta legend is to deny that the Lost Dutchman Mine ever existed; therefore, denying the Peralta legend is equivalent to asserting that every Dutch hunter since Waltz’s death (more than 117 years ago now) has been wasting time in the childish pursuit of a fantasy”.

Do you agree or disagree with the above statement and please provide an explanation supporting your decision. I am placing you on a hot seat and I know that we all realize the ramifications of your opinion relating to this subject. I respect your research and understand that if you do not want to go here I have no problem, so if you wish, take or plead the 5th amendment.
EB

 

[Cubfan64]

Cubfan,

I know you are addressing Joe, but, yes - same place. Here is some links to what they have in their archives. Of course, you cannot read them online, but, you can go and look at them. These links will let you link onto info available, and where it is located in the Foundation.

http://www.ahfweb.org/download/Blair_MSS_24.pdf

http://www.googlesyndicatedsearch.com/u/ahfweb?q=robert+blair&sa=Search


B

Thanks Mrs. Oro - I think I have that link somewhere else in my ever growing favorites folder, but you made it much easier to find again

 

[lamar]

Dear Ellie Baba;
I've never spent so much as 5 minutes searching for the LDM, my friend. In truth, parallel research into the early colonization of the Americas has sent me to the same places as most LDM writers have visited, but my interest in the LDM is purely in the form of entertainment. I rather enjoy the irony of so many otherwise logical, responsible men and women searching high and low for something which they will not find, and the reason why they will not find it is because I firmly believe that it never existed in the first place.

One man, working alone in hardrock country would be VERY hard pressed to scratch out enough color from the rocks to pay for his beans and flour and yet I am supposed to believe that Jacob Waltz was quietly amassing a fortune? If you are doubtful, accquire the same tools which were available in the late 1800s, namely hammer and drill, and walk up to any rock face you happen to find. Once you sized up the face, start drilling and keep track of how much host rock you are able to dislodge AND process in one week.

Now, after you've dropped from exhaustion, you'll probably conclude that Mr. Waltz either had some serious help or someone was lying. In order to be able to mine gold of the magnitude that Jacob was supposedly extracting would take a lode of huge proportions and I really do not think that a lode that size could have remained undetected for this long, as all gold formations tend to shed deposits at a constant, albeit very slow, rate. if there were a lode of that stature in the Superstitions then a significant amount of alluvial gold would have been detected and helped to locate the source of the formation. Thus far, this has not happened.

Basically, what people are believing in is the words of a single person, that being Jacob Waltz and he may, or may not, have said those words. No one knows for sure, my friend. We only know what people TELL us and nothing more than this. In other words, it's strictly a "he said, she said" proposition, my friend, with virtually no written documentation to support the claims or theories.

Granted, hypothesizing about the LDM is thought provoking and fun, however I tend to keep my emotions in check in regards to anything connected to the LDM. I do not belittle anyone who searches for the LDM however, everyone should be aware that the odds of finding it are very slim indeed. In all honesty, if I were to go into the Supes, I'd do so with one of my Minelab PI detectors. In this way I would know that if a gold nugget were in the vicinity I would stand a very good chance of recovering it.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Cubfan64]

Dear Ellie Baba;
I've nev er spent so much as 5 minutes searching for the LDM, my friend. In truth, parallel research into the early colonization of the Americas has sent me to the same places as most LDM writers have visited, but my interest in the LDM is purely in the form of entertainment. I rather enjoy the irony of so many otherwise logical, responsible men and women searching high and low for something which they will not find, and the reason why they will not find it is because I firmly believe that it never existed in the first place.

One man, working alone in hardrock country would be VERY hard pressed to scratch out enough color from the rocks to pay for his beans and flour and yet I am supposed to believe that Jacob Waltz was quietly amassing a fortune? If you are doubtful, accquire the same tools which were available in the late 1800s, namely hammer and drill, and walk up to any rock face you happen to find. Once you sized up the face, start drilling and keep track of how much host rock you are able to dislodge AND process in one week.

Now, after you've dropped from exhaustion, you'll probably conclude that Mr. Waltz either had some serious help or someone was lying. In order to be able to mine gold of the magnitude that Jacob was supposedly extracting would take a lode of huge proportions and I really do not think that a lode that size could have remained undetected for this long, as all gold formations tend to shed deposits at a constant, albeit very slow, rate. if there were a lode of that stature in the Superstitions then a significant amount of alluvial gold would have been detected and helped to locate the source of the formation. Thus far, this has not happened.

Basically, what people are believing in is the words of a single person, that being Jacob Waltz and he may, or may not, have said those words. No one knows for sure, my friend. We only know what people TELL us and nothing more than this. In other words, it's strictly a "he said, she said" proposition, my friend, with virtually no written documentation to support the claims or theories.

Granted, hypothesizing about the LDM is thought provoking and fun, however I tend to keep my emotions in check in regards to anything connected to the LDM. I do belittle anyone who searches for the LDM however, everyone should be aware that the odds of finding it are very slim indeed. In all honesty, if I were to go into the Supes, I'd do so with one of my Minelab PI detectors. In this way I would know that if a gold nugget were in the vicinity I would stand a very good chance of recovering it.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Lamar,

I'm guessing the above highlighted wording was a Freudian slip?

 

[lamar]

Dear Cubfan64;
No my friend, not a Freudian slip, merely a rush job of typing. I shall correct it now and thank you for bringing that to my attention. In truth I do not belittle or begrudge anyone that searches for the LDM, as long they are able to keep it all in context.
Your friend;
LAMAR