How sure is it that the Lost Dutchman mine is in the Superstitions?

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

I have shown this picture before, but I don't know if I included much of it's history.

The ore is supposed to have come from a well known LDM story. The person who took the picture was taken to the pit mine, I have posted pictures of, back around 1985. He was in the company of some very well known Dutch Hunters.

When I asked him if he thought the ore in his pictures came from that pit mine, he said he was certain it did.

I doubt anyone will ever have ore from the LDM........that will be tested.

It's really a very interesting story.

Take care,

Joe

 

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[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

I guess we are done talking about the Peralta's Valenciana Mine. Thought I would add this:

Helen Corbin included copies of a number of documents about the subject in chapter 8 in
"The Bible...". In at least one of those references, it is called the Valencia.

The Valenciana in Mexico was the richest silver mine ever.

I don't know why our mutual friend Lamar has not responded to the information on the real Peraltas and their mines, but I believe the Peraltas made enough out of their mine in Arizona to be able to buy a store which they then ran. If memory serves, they were having troubles with Indians and decided to sell out. One of the brothers committed suicide some time later. Lamar may have made his post on the Peraltas not having any mines while working from memory alone, and mis-stated what he intended to say - or perhaps he was talking out of his hat.

Cactusjumper also wrote

Sounds like the perfect time to visit Arizona.......

Yes indeed!

Cactusjumper also wrote

I have shown this picture before, but I don't know if I included much of it's history.

The ore is supposed to have come from a well known LDM story. The person who took the picture was taken to the pit mine, I have posted pictures of, back around 1985. He was in the company of some very well known Dutch Hunters.

When I asked him if he thought the ore in his pictures came from that pit mine, he said he was certain it did.

I doubt anyone will ever have ore from the LDM........that will be tested.

It's really a very interesting story.

I do not recall your saying anything of the history of that ore, only that it was "suspected Dutchman ore". If no one ever has ore that gets tested, about the only person who will REMAIN un-convinced would be myself I suppose, however I am sure there are plenty of people who do not insist on that particular point before making conclusions. I hope to hear the story behind the ore some time soon!

Just a side note here, I am no geologist so my opinion carries little weight, but I sure would LOVE to have even a few minutes access to a piece of that ore, with a good magnifying glass!
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[lamar]

Dear Oroblanco;
Actually, I did neither, my friend. In all reality, the Peraltas did not own any mines in Arizona, as their mines were in Mexico. As I recall, Arizona did not become a United Stated possession until 1848 and 1853, with the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo and the Gadsden Purchase, therefore neither of the Valenciana mines were situated in the USA and therefore, no records of their ownership exists in US archives. The records of ownership of the two mines are housed in archives in two provinces in Mexico, with copies in Mexico City and also originally in Toledo, Spain, which have since been moved to Madrid, Spain.

And to answer your musing, I do not answer whenever I feel I have been insulted, my friend as nobody is paying me to provide any information, therefore I do so at my pleasure. Also, the Valenciana was not the richest silver mine in Mexico. That title goes to the Fresnillo mine, located in Zacatecas and is second largest silver mine in the entire WORLD, with it's annual output second only to the Cannington mine, located in Queensland Australia. The Fresnillo produced 33 million troy oz of silver in 2007, which are the latest output figures available, far outstripping the Valenciana's very best year.

For total silver output, the San Luis Potosi mine in the state with the same name leads Mexico's vast silver mines. It's output was so great that it rivaled it's namesake, the famous Potosi silver mine in Potosi, Uper Peru, which is now Bolivia. Once again, shoddy research into a subject and suppositions do not turn fiction into facts.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[cactusjumper]

Dear Lamar,

It's good to see that you have graciously accepted my profuse apology. I would hate to think that our exchanges have come to an end.

Like most people here, I get my information on little known minutia from the Internet. When we started talking about the Peralta's mining activities in Arizona, and specifically the Valenciana Mine, that's where I started my search. That would be normal procedure for me, any time I am away from my library.

Here is just one of the sites I came across in that search: http://www.showcaves.com/English/mx/mines/Valenciana.HTML

Here is part of what can be found at that site:

"The Valenciana Mine is the most productive mine in the city Guanajuato, and it is still in operation. Around 1900 this mine produced two-thirds of all the silver from Guanajuato. The Valenciana Mine Entrance next to the Church of Valenciana is now a show mine. It shows the mining conditions during the viceroyalty period."
You would need to read to read the copyrighted quote at that site to get a little more information.

Any time you use the Internet for your information, there is always the danger that you will get incorrect information. I found enough other sites to give me confidence that my comments were probably on target.

Few of us have access to the archives in Mexico, so we do what we can with what is available to the general Internet public. This is the kind of "evidence" that many of us are able to easily access:

[Fresnillo
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Fresnillo [frAsnE´yO] (2005 census pop. 110,892) is the largest city in Zacatecas state, north central Mexico. Fresnillo was founded in 1554 by Francisco de Ibarra. The city, a rail and highway junction, is the center of a rich mining area known especially for silver. Fresnillo is the location of one of the world's richest silver mines, the Mina Proaño or Fresnillo Mine, which belongs to the Peñoles mining company. It has a mining school, and agriculture (cereals, beans) and cattle raising are other important economic activities. Fresnillo is also the municipal seat of the municipality of the same name which surrounds it. The municipality had a population of 196,538 and an areal extent of 4,947 square kilometres (1,910 sq mi).]


You may be correct, but there is evidence available to prove that the Peralta's had a mine on Black Mesa that they called Valenciana. While no original claim exists today, the bill of sale for the mine, when the Peralta's sold, it still does. In addition to that, there are contemporaneous newspaper articles. Another little know fact, for which there is also documentation, is that the Peralta's came back at a later date, after the mine was abandoned, and refilled a new claim.

The documentation for the La Paz Peralta mining efforts also still exists. Should you go there looking for it, the clerk may tell you that it is not there. That's because it hasn't been listed in the finder. If you persist that they do have it, and that Dr. Glover happened to be there the day that the two boxes came in that contained that information.......they will locate it.

I have no problem admitting that you are head and shoulders above me when it comes to researching these various subjects, but that does not free you from being questioned on the "facts" you post here. I respect your abilities, sources and knowledge, but you are not infallible.

If that kind of attitude creates a wall between us, so be it. It is never my intention to insult you, but I am also not infallible. We are, after all, not the Pope.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Springfield]

Dear springfield;
You wrote:
but you will seldom find one willing to face the possibility that he has be searching for something that was never there. Actually, this closed-mindedness shuts the door to an even greater mystery.

Would that greater *mystery* be called *reality*, my friend?
Your friend;
LAMAR

No, I wouldn't call it 'reality' Lamar, because 'reality' is a state that constantly changes and also depends on the individual observor. 'Truth' might be a better word choice since 'truth' is demonstrably the same for most rational people, at least in the physical world that we know. A flat world was a 'reality' for many people even though the truth is that it's actually round. The same principle applies to the LDM - the 'reality' for many (based on Waltz's testimony and a long trail of circumstantial evidence, conjecture, lore, etc.) is that Jacob Waltz had a working gold mine located in the Superstition Mountains that hasn't yet been relocated. Most believe this is 'reality'. I don't have any personal energy invested in The LDM story, but it is interesting to me because I see the phenomena as a piece of a larger puzzle.

 

[lamar]

Dear Springfield;
I think the larger piece of the puzzle could be labeled as "Gullibility" my friend. If we examine the man and the motive from a strictly unimpassioned point of view, we can find that Jacob Waltz had every motive for lying if he were in fact guilty of high-grading and absolutely no motive for telling the truth if he did in fact locate a large gold deposit.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear Cactusjumper;
You wrote:
You may be correct, but there is evidence available to prove that the Peralta's had a mine on Black Mesa that they called Valenciana. While no original claim exists today, the bill of sale for the mine, when the Peralta's sold, it still does.

Yes, my friend, the Peraltas actually did sell a mine in Arizona, however, strangly enough, no grant of ownership was ever located, either in the USA, Mexico, or Spain, nor was there ever a record of a mine of that particular mine's description nor any previous mine owners. In other words, the Peraltas sold a worthless *pirate* mine to someone which they did not own, never owned and centrainly never worked, my friend.

A pirate mine is one which is worked illegally, without knowledge of the government which has control over the mine's mineral rights and output. To sum up, the Peraltas never owned any mines in Arizona, although they were guilty of selling one or two. As far as I am aware, selling something which you do own does not entitle one to ownership.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[cactusjumper]

Dear Lamar,

"In other words, the Peraltas sold a worthless *pirate* mine to someone which they did not own, never owned and centrainly never worked, my friend."

I can't imagine how that could be anything more than conjecture on you part, but admit it's possible that you may have more evicence than your opinion. There is positive documentation that the Peralta's were working in the Bradshaws. How can you be so sure they didn't work the Black Mesa Mine?

By the way, other than the name (Valenciana) there is no connection between the mine in Arizona and the one in Mexico.

Take care,

Joe

 

[lamar]

Dear Cactusjumper;
I do not succomb to either conjecture or assumption, and when I do, I state so quite clearly and state my reasons for doing so. The fact remains that there exists no documentation in any archives which places a Peralta in Arizona and in possession of a mining grant. I understand that many authors have stated that a certain Peralta owned a mine called the Valenciana in Arizona, but this is not possible.

There never existed a mine named the Valenciana in what is currently known as the state of Arizona. There were two mines with like sounding names, the Valencia and the Valencienne, however I think these may be part of the Gloryana prospect now. There was a Miguel Peralta whom was granted a mining grant in what is now the state of California, but it played out and he defrauded an American buyer.

I am not sure what you are looking for my friend, but we seem to be covering the same ground over and over and therefore I must plead habius corpus (produce the body [of evidence]). If you are able to produce a document with a Peralta signature on it attesting to a valid mining grant in what is now the state of Arizona, then please quit beating around the bush and produce it. Please note that I am not asking for a bill of sale from a Peralta, rather the document which grants the mine to said Peralta in order for said Peralta to be able to sell it.
Your friend;
LAMAR
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Lamar my friend: You posted -->

The fact remains that there exists no documentation in any archives which places a Peralta in Arizona and in possession of a mining grant.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

May I suggest that you rephrase that statement.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA compadres,

Lamar, if anything I posted was offensive to you, my sincere apologies as no offense was intended. Like several of our friends here, if any offense was intentional, there would be no question or ambiguity involved.

Lamar wrote

The fact remains that there exists no documentation in any archives which places a Peralta in Arizona and in possession of a mining grant. I understand that many authors have stated that a certain Peralta owned a mine called the Valenciana in Arizona, but this is not possible.

There never existed a mine named the Valenciana in what is currently known as the state of Arizona.

I see that you are "sticking to your guns" concerning your statements, and fudging a bit by revising your statement about Peraltas owning mines in MEXICO, rather than Arizona as it was not then part of the USA. However. based on what records we have, this portion of your statement seems incorrect. The Peraltas who discovered and worked the mine in the Bradshaws arrived in Arizona after it had become part of the USA (after 1847) as they were crowded out of their first mine workings near the Colorado river by American prospectors whom were arriving in large numbers. Since we know that large numbers of American prospectors did not arrive in Arizona until after 1849 when the California gold strikes became public knowledge, it would appear the Peraltas were actively searching for gold also after 1849, and Arizona was in fact a part of the USA by that time. So you are incorrect in saying that no Peraltas ever had any mines in Arizona, and that no mine named the Valenciana ever existed in Arizona. I don't know what sources you are using to support your statements concerning this, but I suspect they are erroneous. Stranger things have happened, even the National Park Service has factual errors such as claiming that the mission at Tumacacori is the "oldest mission site in Arizona" when we know the Franciscan fathers had several in the northeastern part of the state over a generation earlier. (Oraibi comes to mind offhand, there were at least three.)

<For proof of what I just said, here is a direct quote from the National Park Service web site on Tumacacori, quote

The name "Tumacácori" may have been derived from two O’odham words, chu-uma and kakul, having reference to a flat, rocky place. Father Kino established it as a mission in January 1691, one day before Guevavi, making it the oldest mission site in Arizona.

http://www.nps.gov/tuma/historyculture/tumacacori.htm

Compare this date with Oraibi <Franciscan> mission, quote

Oraibi was the site of the San Francisco Mission (1629–80)

<from Britannica online http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/430742/Oraibi>

I am trying to let you "off the hook" easy here amigo, but if you still insist that no Peraltas ever owned any mines in Arizona and no Valenciana mine ever existed in Arizona, along with no Peraltas ever being miners in Arizona and similar, then I for one will have to ask for documentation to support these contentions as there are evidences contrary to your statements.
your friend in 'Dakota Territory'
Oroblanco

 

[lamar]

Dear Oroblanco, Cactusjumper and others;
The original legwork on the Peraltas involvement in the LDM legend was complied back in the early to mid 1970s by a gentleman named Robert Blare (or Blaire, or Blair) and he compiled his findings into a book, the name of which now escapes me. His research was quite dilligent and when I started my own research in the mid 1980s I covered the same ground as he, however I then extended my research to include Mexico and Spain, neither country of which Mr. Blair could perform research in. Even in light of my expanded research, I reached the same conclusions that Mr. Blair had reached approximately one decade prior. Therefore, unless a new document has surfaced of which I am not aware of, I shall continue to stand by what is housed in the archives, my friends.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Regardless of the Lost Dutchman, or any other missing mines, it is a verifiable fact that the Peralta's were, in fact, in possession of a mining grant in Arizona.

Sometime in or around 1863, two Peraltas in particular, Pablo and Miguel, went from California to Arizona and held a registered mining claim on the Aqua Fria River, not too far from Black Canyon City.

It is not only well documented, people still do some panning of the tailings there from time to time still today. They named the mine Valencianca, the exact same name of their mine in Mexico. It's not a lost mine, nor is it any secret from anyone.

B

 

[gollum]

Hate to burst you guys' bubbles, buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut:

Pablo and Miguel Peralta were from the side of the Peralta Family that went to Monterrey, Ca. with De Anza in 1776. The Valenciana was a gold mine in the Bradshaw Mountains in Arizona. I quote Thomas Glover from his book on the LDM:

Following Luis Peralta's departure from Tubac with Anza in 1776, ~~~Excluded from the new Pioneer and Walker Districts because they were not Anglos, they prospected the surrounding country and in September of 1864 filed a virgin claim on a mine they called the Valenciana in the Bradshaw Mountains. The Valenciana was a rich gold mine yielding $35,000 in just over a year ($665,000 in todays values [1990]).

I hope this settles any bad feelings.

Best-Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

The Valenciana in Mexico was the richest silver mine ever

and Lamar replied, quote

Also, the Valenciana was not the richest silver mine in Mexico. That title goes to the Fresnillo mine, located in Zacatecas and is second largest silver mine in the entire WORLD, with it's annual output second only to the Cannington mine, located in Queensland Australia.

I believe that our mutual friend Cactusjumper posted his statement, based on what is published, such as this, quote

The Valenciana Mine was once said to be the richest silver mine in the world.

<from http://www.greatpanther.com/s/Guanajuato.asp

It is possible that OLDER sources, may well cite the Valenciana as "THE" richest silver mine in the world, and that status has since been eclipsed by the Fresnillo &c.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Dear Lamar,

You will excuse the length of this reply, as there is a lot to address.

I have three copies of "Tales of the Superstitions" by Robert Blair. One is a signed first edition hardcover, one is the same, only unsigned and I have a very ragged softcopy edition.

Although Blair admits in his Forward that he does not list every source he used, he then proceeds to use five full pages to list his major sources. For further reference, he suggests that the reader pay close attention to the many footnotes throughout the book. The main sources for the LDM portion of his book, were all of the popular early writers, and a number of the later ones as well. He seems to have used documents that were available in the United States, as his primary historical sources.

I am happy that you have used Robert Blair as a source and have praised his research abilities, because you have misstated his conclusions about the Peralta's being in Arizona and having gold mines and claims here.

He states....unequivocally that the Peralta's held legal placer claims in La Paz, and also owned the Valenciana on Black Mesa. He traces their time in California as well. In his footnotes, he documents where the files and records, that were his sources, are located. You would start reading this information on Page 99 and will have seen enough by page 112.

Blair is a well known and respected researcher in the Dutch Hunter Community. Every Dutch hunter will disagree with his conclusions concerning the LDM's existence, but they all know he was very good in his research. However, he was not the only person who went to great lengths to find his evidence. A number of authors went into Mexico to seek their facts. Barry Storm may have been the first.

Here is how I see our differing opinions:

You have stated you could find no records in the archives here, or in Mexico. Therefore, you conclude that the Peralta's could not have owned claims in Arizona. You have also mixed in dates, that so not fit into the era we are talking about, as Roy has correctly pointed out.
It makes perfect sense that there are no records to be found in Mexico, because the Peralta's mining activities in Arizona started in 1862.

Because you could find no records, does not mean they don't exist.

I have quoted the records that Blair and a number of other authors have provided for this information, and you have dismissed them out of hand. Where as I have shown where they do exist, you have shown where they don't exist. Do you see any problem with that? My own sources are the best in the business.....but even they can be mistaken.

Could it be that the documents/evidence is there, and you have looked in the wrong places?

No offense, but there are two sides to this debate.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

I have never seen it written that the Peralta's ever owned the Valenciana Mine in Mexico. Are you possibly mistaken here?

Quit screwing around on this Forum and keep pounding nails in that new roof! Walmart has some nice work lights.......

Take care,

Joe

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

No bad feelings - but wrong Peralta's.

Pablo - not Pedro.

From "The History of New Mexico":
quote:

It was probably around 1863 when Pablo and Miguel left California and went to Arizona. They held a registered mining claim on the Aqua Fria River a few miles from present day Black Canyon City, and they called their mine Valenciana, the same name as the abandoned silver mine in Mexico. ...........................................................Indian raids were always a problem, and Pablo and Miguel were attacked several times. During one of the battles an indian with a lance wounded Pablo. Miguel then sold the mine to a group of investors from California and they moved to the new town of Wickenburg, about a hundred miles southwest, which was booming after the discovery of the Vulture Mine" "unquote"

It goes on to tell how Pablo died in Wickenburg, Miguel married, opened a dry goods store and then a second one in Seymour when the Central Arizona Mining Company opened a stamp mill there in 1879. Then later, moved to Phoenix and opened a large mercantile store there at the corners of Washington and Central Streets (now Central Ave).

Miguel, however WAS suspected of being involved with the Reavis deal, and he later committed suicide.

B

 

[cactusjumper]

Hi B,

I am a little lost here. Can you tell us the author of "The History of New Mexico"? I could not find that quote in the book.

Thanks, and get Roy back up on that roof.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,

I have never seen it written that the Peralta's ever owned the Valenciana Mine in Mexico. Are you possibly mistaken here?

WHAT!!!!? Me, possibly mistaken? Perish the thought! Yes it is quite possible amigo, I am working largely from memory, with very much no references anywhere in reach other than our wonderful internet, which comes complete with vast amounts of very erroneous and misleading information put forth as fact. I am fairly sure that this is published in book form, and this former mine possession was the reason for their naming the Arizona mine after it, the family having lost the original Valenciana prior to moving to California. While so extremely unlikely as to be virtually 50-50 odds, it is POSSIBLE that I could be mistaken on this point.

Cactusjumper also wrote

Quit screwing around on this Forum and keep pounding nails in that new roof! Walmart has some nice work lights.......

Work lights? What, and LIGHT UP the distance a person can fall, when I am scared of heights? I would rather not see how far DOWN it is. Sheesh Joe you do have a little mean streak!
Roy ~ Oroblanco