How sure is it that the Lost Dutchman mine is in the Superstitions?

[cactusjumper]

Lamar, my friend,

Sorry I took so long, but my nephew and his family are in town, and I took everyone out to dinner. Appropriatly enough, we went to a Mexican resturant.

I should never divide my attention at work, but it's a hard habit to break.

You are, of course, correct about Miguel Peralta selling the land grant to Dr. George Willing. Get me away from my "war room" and I can't remember.......spit.

On the other hand, the Peraltas did mine in Arizona. They were in the La Paz mining camp in 1862. Not satisfied with what they found there, the moved on to Prescott. and "In September 1864 filed a virgin claim on a mine they called the Valenciana in the Bradshaw mountains."
They abandoned their mine in 1878, because of the Apache pressure, and that information is reported in the "Arizona Miner, Prescott,
Nov. 15, 1878".

The above information can be found in "The Lost Dutchman Mine Of Jacob Waltz...." by Dr. Thomas Glover. Thomas has spent hundreds of hours doing research at the Sharlott Hall Museum. I assume that's where he found this information. I have complete faith in Thomas' quotes, especially where he supplies the source.

Thomas will be here tomorrow, and I will ask him where he located the newspaper account. He will also be at the Rendezvous next Friday night, and anyone who has some questions will be able to ask him personally.

Another, more detailed, account of Peralta mining in Arizona, comes from Robert Blair's "Tales of the Superstitions". The first "official" mines owned, in partnership, of the Peralta's "were known as the Plomosa Placers; composing a group of dry diggings in the La Posa Plain west of the Plomosa (lead) Mountains. Book 3, Deeds and Claims, La Paz, May 2, 1863, pp. 99-100, Records of Yuma County. Manuel Moreno was listed as the discoverer. Other claimants were the Peraltas, Andres Pico, Casimiro Laguna, Felipe Gonzales, Abelardo Ortiz, and Miguel Pesquira."

There is also documentation that they owned/sold their Valenciana gold mine located on Black Mesa in Black Canyon:

The Claim was filed in the now-lost early records of the Bradshaw Mining District on Sept. 15, 1864, according to the later deed of sale of the Peralta Mine; Book 2, Deeds, Yavapai Records." Notes: Page 106. This is not the only documentation for the Peralta mine. The Valenciana Mine was latter reclaimed as the Gloriana Mine in 1978.

Blair did some excellent research, but no Dutch Hunter would agree with his conclusions.

This was the key phrase in my last post to you: "The one in California was the real thing and he ended up in Arizona.......as I remember." That would indicate that I could be wrong. We have all insulted other members of this Forum at one time or another. Comes from having strong personalities and strong opinions.

My apologies for my earlier (mistaken) post.

Take care,

Joe

 

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[Ellie Baba]

Dear Ellie Baba;
Of course, you are going with the supposition that the LDM is actually somewhere in the Superstition mountains my friend. In all reality, we don't even know if the Superstition mountains are in the Superstition mountains! For all anyone knows, the Superstition mountains may actually be south, down in Mexico, which changes quite a few things. And, if the Superstitions are actually where they're supposed to be, what was to stop Jacob Waltz from not telling the truth?

Also, we know that ol' Jacob had been exposed to the elements for quite an extended period, therefore he was not even lucid when he told of his fabulous mine. Perhaps Jacob Wlatz was not in the Supes at all, rather he was in Mexico and in his delirium, got confused and thought that he was somehow in the Supes instead of in Mexico.

We know there is no such family with the surname of Peralta that ever lived or mined gold or silver in Arizona. There did exist one Peralta, a certain Miguel Peralta, who had a gold mine in California throughout the 1860s, but soon played out. Miguel Peralta then conned someone into buying the mineral rights to a fictious Spanish grant.

Perhaps Jacob Waltz was actually in California when he discovered the mine and this would mean that everyone has been searching in the wrong state. There are lots of possibilities my friend. Also, perhaps the mine was rediscovered at a later date, only it was never realized that it was the original Lost Dutchman Mine, or perhaps, if it was known, it was kept a secret lest surviving family members keep from claiming rights to it.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Re: How sure is it that the Lost Dutchman mine is in the Superstitio

There were indeed Peralta's in Arizona - born and died.


http://genealogy.az.gov/azdeath/013/10130556.pdf

http://genealogy.az.gov/azdeath/005/10050090.pdf
http://genealogy.az.gov/azdeath/002/10021804.pdf

http://genealogy.az.gov/azdeath/002/10021999.pdf

http://genealogy.az.gov/azdeath/019/10191533.pdf

http://genealogy.az.gov/azdeath/007/10070379.pdf

http://genealogy.az.gov/azdeath/009/10090223.pdf


NOTE THE LAST ONE - HE WAS A MINER, and born before Arizona was part of the US.

That's all I have to say.

B

 

[Ellie Baba]

Hi Lamar,

For what ever reason my reply to your post did not show up on my last post. I will address a response later as I am falling asleep as I type. Have a great week my friend.

EB

 

[cactusjumper]

Dear Lamar,

I deleted my earlier post because it was stupid, thoughtless, untrue and insulting.

My sincere apologies to you.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Dear Lamar,

[Dear Ellie Babe;
The Valenciana Mine, owned wholly by Conde Valenciana, ceased operations in 1811 AD, more almost 80 years before the rise of the LDM legend, my friend, therefore that particular mine has no bearing on the subject whatsoever.
Your friend;
LAMAR]

Are you talking about the Valenciana mine in Arizona or Mexico? Can you share your source for that information?

Thanks in advance.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Ellie Baba]

Dear Ellie Baba;

Of course, you are going with the supposition that the LDM is actually somewhere in the Superstition mountains my friend. In all reality, we don't even know if the Superstition mountains are in the Superstition mountains! For all anyone knows, the Superstition mountains may actually be south, down in Mexico, which changes quite a few things. And, if the Superstitions are actually where they're supposed to be, what was to stop Jacob Waltz from not telling the truth?

I believe that the Dutchman never had a mine in the Superstitions, my supposition is this: Jacob Waltz, among others of that day were members of the Architects and one of Jacob’s duties was to check the areas where the depositories were hidden to make sure that no one, either by accident or intention recover a hidden cache. In reality we do know where the Supers are located, just ask anyone familiar with the area’s history; especially the Native Americans who live here, primarily the Pima, Papago and Maricopa tribes. It is well known that they are descendants of the Aztecs and considered them brothers throughout history including a legend concerning Montezuma who brought his people into these sacred mountains and they all disappeared and one day would return.
Jacob could not tell the truth to anyone outside of the Architects, the truth was that his life (and death) was to result in the biggest legend ever concocted by man, the LDM.

Also, we know that ol' Jacob had been exposed to the elements for quite an extended period, therefore he was not even lucid when he told of his fabulous mine. Perhaps Jacob Waltz was not in the Supes at all, rather he was in Mexico and in his delirium, got confused and thought that he was somehow in the Supes instead of in Mexico.

Another part of the fabric woven into the LDM legend. It is a known fact that Jacob was in Phoenix during the flood, his rescue and those who took care of him and his needs. He told them what they wanted to hear thus promoting the LDM legend. Julia spent a large sum of money and time trying to find his nonexistent mine. I believe one or two others near his deathbed were members of the Architects also. They were there to promote the legend; for the rumor mill had already been running for quite some time.

We know there is no such family with the surname of Peralta that ever lived or mined gold or silver in Arizona. There did exist one Peralta, a certain Miguel Peralta, who had a gold mine in California throughout the 1860s, but soon played out. Miguel Peralta then conned someone into buying the mineral rights to a fictitious Spanish grant.

I knew you were going to receive some flack from this statement. There were never any Smiths or Joneses either. I will leave this one alone for the time being.

Perhaps Jacob Waltz was actually in California when he discovered the mine and this would mean that everyone has been searching in the wrong state. There are lots of possibilities my friend. Also, perhaps the mine was rediscovered at a later date, only it was never realized that it was the original Lost Dutchman Mine, or perhaps, if it was known, it was kept a secret lest surviving family members keep from claiming rights to it.

We know that Jacob was in California doing what he loved; prospecting and locating gold. He always sold his claims after they were proven. He is like me in that sense as I love to find it, but I hate mining it. Prove its value then sell it. Jacob Waltz never owned a mine. Jacob was following the orders given to him by his superiors the Architects. He was not some lone desert rat as some would say. He had a number of close friends including King Woolsey, Sheriff Montgomery and others who knew his character and would place their lives in his hands. He knew the depository layouts like the back of his hand and a number of people believed that when he went into the desert he was going to his mine. That is why he ditched those that followed him and may have told a few that they may face death at his hands if they continued to try and follow him. Jacob Waltz never had a mine, he did not need one, but he was still a prospector and always would be, till the day he died. I would have enjoyed meeting the man and hanging out with the whole bunch.

Your friend;
EB

By the way it is near impossible to change the color of the text on the posting format. Whats up?

 

[cactusjumper]

Lamar,

If you were referring to the Valenciana Mine in Guanajuato, discovered in 1760, that mine was owned by Don Antonio Obregon y Alcocer, who was the Conde/Count of Valenciana, in 1788. I assume he would have still been the owner in 1811.

Are you certain that the Black Mesa Valenciana Mine was owned by Conde Valenciana?

Thanks,

Joe

 

[Springfield]

... my supposition is this: Jacob Waltz, among others of that day were members of the Architects and one of Jacob’s duties was to check the areas where the depositories were hidden to make sure that no one, either by accident or intention recover a hidden cache. .... Jacob could not tell the truth to anyone outside of the Architects, the truth was that his life (and death) was to result in the biggest legend ever concocted by man, the LDM. ....

I for one agree with this theory, EB, not only pertaining to the LDM but to other "lost mines/hidden treasure" legends such as the Lost Adams Diggings and many others, well-known and not so well-known. Many, many searchers have gone to their graves 100% convinced that the decades they spent seeking one of these legends were an investment that lacked only a bit more time for success. Aficionados argue, banter and strain at the minutia of details surrounding Waltz and 'his mine' without ever being willing to admit the the whole shebang might be a well-engineered strategy of disinformation. The thrill of the chase is a treasure unto itself, and most Dutch Hunters wouldn't trade their experience for anything on earth (and rightfully so, IMO), but you will seldom find one willing to face the possibility that he has be searching for something that was never there. Actually, this closed-mindedness shuts the door to an even greater mystery.

 

[lamar]

Dear springfield;
You wrote:
but you will seldom find one willing to face the possibility that he has be searching for something that was never there. Actually, this closed-mindedness shuts the door to an even greater mystery.

Would that greater *mystery* be called *reality*, my friend?
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[FEMF]

Hello
"COME ON" BEAM ME UP "SCOTT"
FEMF

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good evening Lamar: Just what IS reality? If we apply the Holistic universe theory, there is are an infinite no of realities both pro and con of anything.

Does the LDM exist in this or that simultaneous universe and time?

Getting a bit wild, since the LDM deposit hasn't knowingly been found, perhaps, due to the Supers inherent talents, maybe there is a portal that allowed him to slip into the parallel universe. One where the LDM is in sight, yet hidden or non existent in our present one?

sheesh. Let's experiment with dejuicy.

hehehehe

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,
I would point out that quite a few people have claimed to have found the Lost Dutchman gold mine over the years, including several of our fellow members here on Treasurenet such as Blindbowman for example. If it never existed, what is it that over 80 people have discovered?

We will have skeptics trying to muddy the waters until someone finds the mine and makes it public knowledge, and proves the ore is identical with the ore found in the candle box beneath the deathbed of Jacob Waltz. That ore is unique, unlike any ore from any other known source, which proves that his source has not been found yet. We can pretend that Waltz was off his nut from too much Sun, or that he was just stealing ore from some other gold mine and so forth but bottom line is his ore came from SOMEWHERE, and that somewhere has not yet been rediscovered since no one has brought out identical ore, though allegedly Gassler did have the correct ore in his pack if we believe the report and trust the geological expertise of Kollenborn, and I do in both cases but that is my personal view.

One of our members here <some months ago> had found a site which "fit" quite a number of the so-called "clues" to find the Lost Dutchman mine, which was all well and good except it did not have even a trace of the type of ore found beneath Waltz's bed. I would love to see someone find the mine and solve the mystery once and for all, but so far - no dice, in my opinion.

To try to tie this back in with the subject of this thread, I am not even convinced that the Lost Dutchman mine lies in what we call the Superstition mountains today; for one thing the area known by that name was considerably larger in the past, and included regions which are highly mineralized with several rich gold mines as well as silver and copper. It is true that Waltz pointed at the mountains and told his friends that was where the mine was, but just how specific can we be, based on the pointing of a finger in a general direction? Julia Thomas was seen trekking around the Goldfield area not long after Jacob's death, which today is not thought to be "in" the Superstitions, and the Goldfield district is a very rich gold region, being discovered also not long after Waltz's death.

There is gold in the Superstitions, but the only USGS study which confirmed it stated that while it was likely a large deposit, it was also likely deeply buried. Of course this was based on a mercury vapor test, which while fairly accurate, is not so good at pinpointing deposits. As a prospector, I would recommend taking your pan elsewhere if you want gold - however for fun and adventure, hunting the Lost Dutchman is an experience that would be difficult to match.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Hello Roy,

"Julia Thomas was seen trekking around the Goldfield area not long after Jacob's death, which today is not thought to be "in" the Superstitions, and the Goldfield district is a very rich gold region, being discovered also not long after Waltz's death."

Getting old here, can you remind me of the source for that information?

Thanks,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigo Joe and everyone,

Cactusjumper wrote

can you remind me of the source for that information?

I am working from memory, but I believe it was Arizona Daily Gazette and the title of the article was "A Queer Quest" run in 1892? I could be mistaken but it was definitely an Arizona newspaper. It is one of the ironies of the Dutchman legend, that she had trod over rich gold deposits hunting a lost gold vein.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Thanks Roy,

I'm sure I have that information, just couldn't dredge it up.

Getting cold back there? Very warm here!

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Joe - found this online, from Kollenborn, quote

The awful irony of the Petrasch-Thomas episode is that their journey into the Superstitions in that blistering hot August of 1892 had led them directly through the area where the Black Queen and Mammoth mines were discovered later that year. Julia Thomas and the Petraschs were not successful in finding any gold, but four other men were. It was in April 1893, after a flash flood the famous Mammoth Mine was discovered. This mine produced two million dollars in gold bullion when gold was worth twenty dollars a troy ounce. Some believe the Mammoth Mine or Bulldog Mine was the source of Waltz’s bonanza ore.

http://www.ajpl.org/aj/superstition/stories/Origin of Dutchman Mine.pdf

The page has a clip of the "A Queer Quest" article which is how I found this, so that was possibly not it. I will try to find it, but this could take some time.

Cactusjumper wrote

Getting cold back there? Very warm here!

It FINALLY warmed today, after a bitter cold snap, (10 degrees in early October is ridiculous even for here) so we have been scrambling to try to catch up. Our brief warm interlude is scheduled to last only four days, sure hope to get things done.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

I guess we are done talking about the Peralta's Valenciana Mine. Thought I would add this:

Helen Corbin included copies of a number of documents about the subject in chapter 8 in
"The Bible...". In at least one of those references, it is called the Valencia.

The Valenciana in Mexico was the richest silver mine ever.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"It FINALLY warmed today, after a bitter cold snap, (10 degrees in early October is ridiculous even for here) so we have been scrambling to try to catch up. Our brief warm interlude is scheduled to last only four days, sure hope to get things done."

Sounds like the perfect time to visit Arizona.......

Take care,

Joe

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

CJ,

It definitely is! All I need to make the trip is to have a roof on my house and we are all set! (we are working on it at a feverish pace) before the weather goes to crap again.

B