HOLY COW my oldest coin to date (1408-1424 A.D) UPDATE new pics

[imafishingnutt]

This is what I found today on a minus tide
i detected near the water on a minus tide where you cant normally detect
and this is what I found.

UPDATE I ADDED THE TWO CLOSE UPS OF THE COIN

IMA SO EXCITED



24.5mm
Obv.: Yung Lo T'ung Pao
Rev.: Nail Mark on top left
Rarity:
Ref.: Not listed

HOLY COW ,,,,,......Reign Title: Yung Lo (1408-1424 a.d.)

However, we must take into account that in Japan during the period 1587-1617
were cast coins with the same legend
Now I'm stoked

THE COIN I FOUND...


THE ONE I FOUND RESEARCHING IT ON LINE...


​

 

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[imafishingnutt]

Maybe the center hole and smooth back mean nothing, or maybe a rarer variation.
I have found some Japanese pics with large center holes but not a Yong-Le.

i FOUND SOME OLD CHINESE CHARMS WITH THE BIGGER HOLE
BUT NOT THE SAME MARKINGS.
THERE WERE SO MANY VARIATIONS OF THIS COIN
BUT THE MAJORITY WERE MINTED 1403-TO 1424 AD

 

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[Montana Jim]

This post has become very muddied... most this text is unessessary IMO.

Whats the bottom line?

It's either an original Chinese Cash Coin - with nail mark
minted between 1403 - 1425. (Yung Lo T'ung Pao)

Or...

It's a Japanese or Vietnamese made Chinese Cash Coin - without nail mark
(legal tender) minted up until the early 1600s. (Yong Le Tong Bao)

In either case:
- It's Rareness is "E": Common - Found by the zillions
- It's older then hell
- Probably worn from water
- Probably has a huge center from being a variant
- Possible Counterfeit (20th century) from Vietnam/Japan (also common)

Reposting this because you missed it originally:
Extremely Rare A ~ Very Rare B ~ Rare C ~ Not So Many D ~ Common E

I can't believe the drama behind this post...

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

This post has become very muddied... most this text is unessessary IMO.

I thought it went very well. No one seems to be upset.
I know what you are saying, that it is worth very little, even if it is 15th century.
It doesnt prove that the Chinese discovered America.
I realize fishingnut didnt put this coin in "what is it," but the question still remains.

 

[Montana Jim]

This post has become very muddied... most this text is unessessary IMO.

I thought it went very well. No one seems to be upset.
I know what you are saying, that it is worth very little, even if it is 15th century.
It doesnt prove that the Chinese discovered America.
I realize fishingnut didnt put this coin in "what is it," but the question still remains.

Fair enough BigCy I really should agree with you. And fishnut is sure looking hard for answers - I think thats cool. 8)

 

[ivan salis]

the very oldest "cash" coins had no back mark they were one sided only ---so while it might be smooth there was nothing to wear off to start with -- then two marks on the rear became the norm --then four marks on the rear --- the front normally had 4 marks -- this helps in quick "rough dating" of cash coins --oldist, newer , newest ---

there were old chinese junks that got storm battered and wrecked on the west coast of that I have very little doubt -- they made it here but did not go back afterwards --instead they stayed and interbred with indains --thus their countries never know of their discoveries to be recorded for "the record" in history ---- they are well known tales of early spanish explorers doing exactly the same thing around the tillamook area-- the very old coin could be from a chinese junk wreck or maybe from a very early period spanish treasure wreck (the spanish carried the chinese coins as "trade bait" for bartering with the indains) -- the spanish ships that sailed from manila often carried very finely detailed jewelry items for the kings and queens of spain and the catholic church and other "powerful" people -----that I personally believe may have been made by chinese craftsmen in the phillipines ---who's jewelry making skills at that time was unmatched and was at its peak ----either way the area where you found it deserves father research and exploring. --- great find --- Ivan

 

[desertfox]

Nut: Congrats on the BANNER find! And thanks for the history lessons, I enjoyed every bit of it. Great find and don't let anyone tell you other wise. HH

Desertfox

 

[imafishingnutt]

This post has become very muddied... most this text is unessessary IMO.

Whats the bottom line?

It's either an original Chinese Cash Coin - with nail mark
minted between 1403 - 1425. (Yung Lo T'ung Pao)

Or...

It's a Japanese or Vietnamese made Chinese Cash Coin - without nail mark
(legal tender) minted up until the early 1600s. (Yong Le Tong Bao)

In either case:
- It's Rareness is "E": Common - Found by the zillions
- It's older then hell
- Probably worn from water
- Probably has a huge center from being a variant
- Possible Counterfeit (20th century) from Vietnam/Japan (also common)

Reposting this because you missed it originally:
Extremely Rare A ~ Very Rare B ~ Rare C ~ Not So Many D ~ Common E

I can't believe the drama behind this post...

This post has become very muddied... most this text is unessessary i DONT BELIEVE ITS MUDDIED AT ALL
AND IF YOU BOTHER TO READ ANY OF IT ITS RESEARCH DUG UP FROM THIS COIN.
SOME I FIND VERY INTERESTING.
BUT YOU ARE CORRECT ON THIS PART.

In either case:
- It's Rareness is "E": Common - Found by the zillions
- It's older then hell
- Probably worn from water
- Probably has a huge center from being a variant
- Possible Counterfeit (20th century) from Vietnam/Japan (also common) <--I DONT THINK SO.
ONE OTHER POSSIBILITY IS IF YOU RESEARCH CHINESE CHARMS YOU WILL SEE WHAT I MEEN.

EITHER WAY ITS OLD AND I LOVE IT SO THAT MAKES IT A TREASURE.
IMA

 

[Montana Jim]

EITHER WAY ITS OLD AND I LOVE IT SO THAT MAKES IT A TREASURE.

I never-ever once disagreed with that! I've done nothing but assist I thought... I can pull my posts if you like.

I was just trying to get the facts ironed out... I did read everything and I thought it was going in several directions.

 

[hmmm]

WHEN I FOUND MY COIN THERE WAS 8 JAPANESE COINS WITH IT, the hole in the japanese coin is bigger then the yong lo coin.
somthing to think about , the 8 japanese coins all seem to be slightly diferent, some have larger holes. I think it has something to do with the year of mint.
last picture shows , the shape of the coin has to do with where you find it.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

the very oldest "cash" coins had no back mark they were one sided only ---so while it might be smooth there was nothing to wear off to start with --

Just to clarify so it doesn't become muddled... I am talking about the ridge being missing around the circumference.

Chinese Coin Yong-Le obverse Fishingnut's Coin obverse

 

[ivan salis]

ah ok fishing nut , I see what your talking about, ---- yes indeed the outer rim has worn smooth --- I was just telling folks that the oldest types of cash coins have no "symbols" on the rear -- then the later it had two symbols ,then 4 symbols -- yours being as old as it was would have been plain backed -- thus no stmbols were "lost" as it wore down smooth--- you have found a great item -- the japanese coins mixed in along with it make things very interesting indeed -- the spanish were known to carry the old "cash" coins for "trade bait" to trade to the indains with.--- sorry don't mean to muddy the water -- I was just trying to give folks an idea of how to quicky "rough date" a cash coin if they find / get one.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

WHEN I FOUND MY COIN THERE WAS 8 JAPANESE COINS WITH IT, the hole in the japanese coin is bigger then the yong lo coin.
somthing to think about , the 8 japanese coins all seem to be slightly diferent, some have larger holes. I think it has something to do with the year of mint.
last picture shows , the shape of the coin has to do with where you find it.

Yes, I have found some Japanese coins that have the larger hole, but I have not yet found the larger hole on the Chinese cash coin. http://www.zeno.ru/showgallery.php?cat=1588

 

[imafishingnutt]

EITHER WAY ITS OLD AND I LOVE IT SO THAT MAKES IT A TREASURE.

I never-ever once disagreed with that! I've done nothing but assist I thought... I can pull my posts if you like.

I was just trying to get the facts ironed out... I did read everything and I thought it was going in several directions.

nO DONT PULL YOU ARE HELPING WE ARE JUST WORKING TOGATHER TO TRY AND FIGURE IT OUT BROTHER.
i MENT NO DISRESPECT.
IMA

 

[imafishingnutt]

the very oldest "cash" coins had no back mark they were one sided only ---so while it might be smooth there was nothing to wear off to start with --

Just to clarify so it doesn't become muddled... I am talking about the ridge being missing around the circumference.



Chinese Coin Yong-Le obverse Fishingnut's Coin obverse

i BELIEVE THIS IS THE COIN IN QUESTION.
ONE THING TO NOTE ON MINE IS THAT THE EDGE AND RIDGES ON MINE ON THE BACK ARE WORN OFF THIS IS MY GUESS ON WHY THEY ARRENT THERE.
ALSO I KNOW THIS COIN IS WORN BECAUSE IT IS EXTREAMLY THIN, I COULD PROBABLY BREAK IT WITH MY FINGERS IF I TRIED.
MABY THE BACK OF THE COIN IS THE SIDE THAT WAS FACING UP SO THE SAND WASHED BACK AND FORTH OVER IT LIKE SANDING IT.
IF YOU LOOK AT THE CENTER HOLE IN YOUR LEFT PIC THE EDGE OF THE RAISED LIP AROUND IT IS THE SAME SIZE AS MY HOLE IN MY COIN.
i BELIEVE THIS IS THE COIN ITS JUST BADLY WORN SMOOTH
THIS WOULD EXPLAIN HOW SOME MAY THINK IT WAS AGGRESSIVELY CLEANED...I DIDNT CLEAN IT THE SAND DID.
THIS IS JUST MY OPPINION.
WHAT DO YOU THINK.

 

[Mercury dude]

I say go out and have more fun finding some more, great find

JC

 

[Idig4beer]

Hello fish-nut.On that coin Today I was looking in the "What is it", and under "Hmmm" post of the "Old Bench Mark" There are pictures of coins that look just like the one you found.It was a long post and don't remember if he said he found them with that old wooden box in the cave. Any-whoooo, check out that Post. Idig

 

[imafishingnutt]

OK I SENT THE COIN PICS TO A PRO COLLECTOR IOF CHINESE COINS AND THIS IS WHAT HE HAS SO FAR
I NEED BETTER PICS THOUGH FOR HIM.

AS SOME OF THE OTHER REPLIES HAVE STATED IN THERE ATTEMPS TO ID THE COIN HERE IS HIS AS WELL

EITHER WAY ITS AN OLD COIN AND ONCE I GET HIM BETTER PICS.....WELL YOU CAN READ HIS EMAIL TO ME.
It is commont coin, in a good condition it costs about $10 now.

However, we must take into account that in Japan during the period 1587-1617
were cast coins with the same legend (in Japanese it sounds as Eiraku
Tsuho):
http://www.zeno.ru/showgallery.php?cat=1459

So most probably that at the Pacific coast you have found Japanese, not
Chinese version of the coin.
If you can make good quality scan (not photo of the coin) and give weight
and size, I will try to show it to experts for final identification.

Sincerely, Vladimir

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Congratulations! It is still very old either way. I was afraid you had found a 20th century replica by the color and lack of severe corrosion. But that was when I thought it was a saltwater surf line find at lo-tide. Also why would replicas be made of something with little monetary value? I know it is valuable to you, and it would be to me, if I found it. It may also have some history behind it or from a shipwreck. Where Japanese on the coast in that time period?

. I would suggest sending clearer pictures. The front seems blurry in the lower right; unless that is the way the coin looks. Good luck in positive identification. I wonder if there is more to be found. Your coin looks as if it has rust or deposits on it from being next to something metal.

 

[Montana Jim]

I am glad you were open to different opinions on the coin... I know you learned a ton, as we all did, about it.

It's good you wanted to KNOW what, where, when... and reguardless of time frame or who made it - it is a legitimate coin that was carried and used. That was never in question. It's like trying to decide which copper a coin can be attributed to, or if it was counterfiet.

The proper attribution is important for Treasure Net as well... and, when folks reasearch this site for good answers they must know they can find the correct answers, or know how to get them. ALready others have taken a secoinf look at their coins to learn more about them.

It's value to YOU was never in question... I have never found a chinese cash coin, but I hope I do one day reguardless of it's trade value.

This was a good post.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

This was a good post.

Yes it is and I hope I dont ruin it by finding some sites that sell brass 20th century replicas, some with large center holes and a very small hole to hang it by. They dont usually show the obverse side.
http://www.ancientwisdom.biz/forms/fs/page7.html
http://www.exoticandoriental.co.uk/acatalog/Coins.html
http://www.firemountaingems.com/shopping.asp?skw=KWCOIN
http://shopping.superpages.com/Coins--al102504

I havent looked for a match, but something to consider. Dont stone me!