HOLY COW my oldest coin to date (1408-1424 A.D) UPDATE new pics

[imafishingnutt]

This is what I found today on a minus tide
i detected near the water on a minus tide where you cant normally detect
and this is what I found.

UPDATE I ADDED THE TWO CLOSE UPS OF THE COIN

IMA SO EXCITED



24.5mm
Obv.: Yung Lo T'ung Pao
Rev.: Nail Mark on top left
Rarity:
Ref.: Not listed

HOLY COW ,,,,,......Reign Title: Yung Lo (1408-1424 a.d.)

However, we must take into account that in Japan during the period 1587-1617
were cast coins with the same legend
Now I'm stoked

THE COIN I FOUND...


THE ONE I FOUND RESEARCHING IT ON LINE...


​

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Upgraded Night Vision Monocular Digital Infrared Monocular Telescope for 100% Darkness with 8X Zoom - Grab it through Amazon!

[imafishingnutt]

Re: HOLY COW my oldest coin to date (1408-1424 A.D)

"It had corroded alot and had been aggressively cleaned"


Could you post a picture before it was cleaned? Before and after pictures are nice, if you have them. Also the back.
I havent studied this coin yet, but a quick observation: doesnt the center hole look excessively large?

this is the only pic I took all i did was wash it for a few secs with baking soda and a few drops of water.
then i rinsed and dried
the coin was in the muck of constant moving water.
it was found on a minus tide.
the back of the coin is smooth no outer ring or anything just plain smooth.

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Treasure of Victoria Peak - Grab it through Amazon!

[Bigcypresshunter]

Thanks.

 

[imafishingnutt]

Its a lot of reading but some very interesting points are made here.
I am beginning to believe that Columbas was not the first to touch US soil.

Part VI Annexes - Evidence of Chinese Fleets visit to specific places all round the world

Annex 22 – Evidence of Chinese Fleets visiting British Colombia, Washington State and Oregon

Maps and star charts

· Queen Charlotte and Vancouver Islands appears on the Waldseemueller (1507) and Zatta maps drawn before Europeans reached British Columbia. On Zatta’s map Queen Charlotte Island is called “Colonie dei Chinesi”.
· Vancouver Islands appears on the Waldseemueller (1507) and Zatta maps drawn before Europeans reached British Columbia
· Jodicus Hondius map (Chinese junk) (Robert Hassell).
· Thomas Jeffreys 1775 American Atlas (Caleb Horn evidence) “Here the Spaniards saw several white and fair Indians in 1774” - Nootka Sound, Vancouver Island

Chinese Records and Claims
Further research needed

Accounts of contemporary European historians and Explorers

· Grotius (1624) reporting Galvão “The people of China… sailed ordinarily the coast, which seems to reach unto 70 degrees towards the north” [viz. as far north as the Bering Straits].

Accounts of Local People

· Squamish Indian accounts of visits of Chinese traders before Europeans (Robert Hassell)
· Haida (of Queen Charlotte Islands) myths – people sailing from West towards sunrise – before Europeans (Paul Wagner).
· Indian tales of Asian men in boats being caught in storms arriving on beaches - Oregon, Washington - (Robert Buker)
· Nu Chal Nuth (region - Nootka) myth about "visitors from afar" who came before the Europeans (Adrian Lee)
· Village of Gambell (old name: Sivouquk) on St. Lawrence Island back in the late 1970's. At that time there were still several old ladies with the ancient tattoo markings on their faces who recounted legends of "pre-contact" sightings of "white men in long white robes".
· Whidbey Island, WA, located in Puget Sound – Local lore: Chinese had logged off large tracts of forest, hundreds of years ago (Joel Gerstmann)
· Indian legends tell of yellow-skinned men thus cast ashore and adopted by the tribes, perhaps hundreds of years before the coming of the first white men's ships. During the 1800s, it is known that many Chinese and Japanese craft wrecked along the Pacific coast, adding credibility to this legend http://www.lostcoast4x4.org/history.htm – (Dick Yarrington)
· The following is a translation of a Chinook Indian legend, “First ship seen by the Clatsop”, narrated by Franz Boas: “… The son of an old woman had died. She wailed for him for a whole year and then she stopped. Now one day she went to Seaside. There she used to stop, and she returned. She returned walking along the beach. She nearly reached Clatsop; now she saw something. She thought it was a whale. When she came near it she saw two spruce trees standing upright on it. She thought “Behold! It is no whale. It is a monster.” She reached the thing that lay there. Now she saw that its outer side was all covered in copper. Ropes were tied to those spruce trees and it was full of iron. Then a bear came out of it. He stood on the thing that lay there. He looked just like a bear, but his face was that of a human being. Then she went home. Now she thought of her son, and cried, saying, “Oh, my son is dead, and the thing about which we heard in tales is on shore.” When she nearly reached the town she continued to cry. [The people said,] “Oh, a person comes crying. Perhaps somebody struck her.” The people made themselves ready. They took their arrows. An old man said, “Listen!”. Then the people listened. Now she said all the time, “Oh, my son is dead, and the thing about which we heard in tales is on shore.” The people said, “What may it be?” They went running to meet her. They said, “What is it?” “Ah, something lies there and it is thus. There are two bears on it, or maybe they are people.” Then the people ran. They reached the thing that lay there. Now the people, or what else thy might be, held two copper kettles in their hands. Now the first one reached there. Another one arrived. Now the persons took their hands to their mouths and gave the people their kettles. They had lids. The men pointed inland and asked for water. Then two people ran inland. They hid themselves behind a log. They returned again and ran to the beach. One man climbed up and entered the thing. He went down into the ship. He looked about in the interior of the ship; it was full of boxes. He found brass buttons in strings half a fathom long. He went out again and called to his relatives, but they had already set fire to the ship. He jumped down. Those two persons had also gone down. It burnt just like fat. Then the Clatsop gathered the iron, the copper, and the brass. Then all the people learned about it…”- This translation appears to provide an insight into pre-Columbian visits to the New World by foreigners with the sophistication to smelt copper and also possible reference to the mylodons and vegetation believed to have been carried by the Chinese fleets. (Catherine Herrold Troeh)

- According to the oral history from the Senaca Indians, the Chinese first landed on what is now the Washington Oregon coast before either the Norse or Columbus got here. Apparently a small craft landed on the west coast during summer months and met the local Indians. The locals were friendly and helped the visitors with their needs. The sailors then apparently returned to China safely because at a later point in time a large naval force arrived in the same coastal area. A fleet returned during the winter months expecting a similar welcome. However the naval party was wiped out in an Indian attack. According to the gentleman, this coastal area was inhabited by a peaceful tribe during the summer, but by the winter, the war-like Crow had descended from the plains due to extreme winter weather in the plains. The Senaca Indian indicated that some tribal members still have helmets, breast armour and other artifacts from that landing. The tribal area for this gentleman is in Minnesota. (Frank Fitch, Elko, NV)

- A reader comments how various Aboriginal groups on Vancouver Island look distinctly Chinese compared to their neighbouring natives. In addition, cave burials have been found along the west coast of Vancouver Island with distinctly Chinese relics. In size and stature, these skeletons are different from the statue of native peoples along the coast. – David Buchan

Linguistics and languages common to China and New World

· Squamish Indians have identical words to Chinese, more than 37 examples. E.g., tsil (wet); chin (wood); etsu (grandmother).
· Inuit = Yin uit (people from Yin) (Martin Tai).
· Haida and Aleut people have same language
·On the arrival of the Europeans to the east coast of American they heard the local Indians speak of ‘moccocine’ being the skin stiched foot wear. The Mongolian word for their foot wear is ‘managocine’ which translated into English means “ Our foot wear” (Dorsha Unkow)

Shipwrecks, Chinese anchors and fishing gear found in the wake of the treasure fleet

· Long Beach wreck - earliest accounts say it was made of teak and carried a cargo of rice (R Hassell).
· Point Adams (Clatsop Beach) (Ed Mitchell)
· Asian pot wreck (H Williams) - 1979 trawler Beaufort Sea hauled up several shards of wood and a large urn later identified as Asian - later known as the Asian pot wreck.
· Net floats from Japan arrive on the beaches of Oregon and Washington
· A large anchor has been found in a bay near New Brunswick Canada. National Post, Sep. 18, 2003 (M Burford)
· A reader believes a Chinese vessel sunk about 20 nautical miles off Tofino and Ucluelet, which is off the west coast of Vancouver Island. Ken Brown of Tofino called our source regarding a Chinese vase that Kevin Reide found. Mr. Brown was fishing the same seamount, which he says is sand, when he found a smaller Chinese vase about 11" tall, all brown in colour. Is this a possible site for a wrecked junk? – Doug Hockley
· A reader was told 25 years ago about a wreck of a Chinese junk just north of Sequim, Washington in the Strait of Juan DeFuca. Has anyone heard the same rumour? - Dr. Don H. Anderson

Chinese porcelain and ceramics found in the wake of the treasure fleet

· Netarts Sand Spit, Tillamook County, Oregon - shards of early and late Ming porcelain - University of Oregon Anthropological Papers - Antonia Bowen-Jones
· Washington Potters -nr. Southern Washington coast arrived c.AD1400 and then dissappeared c300 years later.
· Hundreds of ceramic artefacts unearthed in narrow valley between Vancouver Lake and the Columbia River including figurines, pipes, pendants small sculpted heads and decorated bowls. US Institute for Archaeological Studies concluded that they were Asian in form (Hector Williams)
· Chinese vase brought up in a fisherman’s net in the 70’s or 80’s in a village of Ucluelet on the west coast of BC - (Sylvia Hockley)
· A Nez Perce Indian from the reservation in Idaho has told a reader how he was working along the Snake River at Lewiston / Clarkston several decades ago. They came across a hoard of beautiful Chinese relics and treasures including boxes of porcelain of obvious Chinese origin, and very old. He was certain that the items must have been left in the area years before the documented arrival of the Chinese to mine the gold in the mountains southeast of Lewiston - Malvin Joye


· Alaska - Article in the Lowell Journal (Kent County Michigan) dated April 28, 1897, referenced an article in the St. Louis Globe. A Professor Alfred Aldridge was exploring the Kuwalic River when he noticed that a great body of earth had been disturbed as in an avalanche. He found a large number of relics including pottery and walls of dull gray masonry set in mortar. The sandstone blocks were of beautiful symmetry and fairly even in size. He dug into a room where he found more pottery, pots ,vases, cups, plates, jugs, pipes, arrows, spears of odd design, scrapers, hatchets, and drills. Some of the jars were exquisitely shaped and 8 feet tall. He said some of the light brown earthenware was similar to what he had found in New Mexico some years before. Apparently he felt he had discovered a prehistoric city of possible Asian origin. (Larry Wittenbach) Any more information on this site would be appreciated.

Pre-Columbian Chinese jade found in the wake of the treasure fleet

· Pre-Columbian Chinese jade: British Columbia (C405; H070)

Artefacts, gems, votive offerings, coins and funerary urns

· An article from The Daily Colonist, Victoria, BC, Thursday August 31st, 1933 describes a Buddhist relic found in Northern British Columbia, and now in the possession of John Forsythe. The Chinese talisman dating back to 200 BC was, found in an oriental jar with other early Buddhist relics, entwined in the roots of an uprooted tree several centuries old. (Lester Lee)
· Tens of thousands of Chinese copper coins found either buried or attached as ornaments to native Indian and Chinese objects on Vancouver Island – dated pre-Columbus.
· Chinese talisman and lamp dated pre-Columbus (Vancouver island).
· Bronze figurine of Garuda – pre-European arrival (John Grubber).
· Chinese storage jars hauled out by fishermen at Tofino off w. coast of Vancouver Island (Hector Williams).
· Chinese clay vase, Vancouver Island (B Morelan).
· Chinese coins on BC coast that predate 1421 (G Berteig)
· Ancient Chinese bronzes (John Grubber)
· Nome and the Natatorium: two small Chinese necklaces found buried deep underground with wooden decorations
· Shu Lao Buddha lamp, Vancouver Island
· A Chinese artefact which was discovered in Washington State, USA, in the mid 1800s, in the Puyallup area. It was found by a family of new settlers to the area while they were digging a well soon after arriving. A Chinese calligraphy expert/artist believes this is a chop, or seal from long ago. He also believes he recognizes the characters for "emperor" amongst others on the seal. The artefact was studied by Dr. S.L. Lee of www.Asiawind.com, an expert in Chinese calligraphy and an artist - Stephen Duncan
· Chinese coin - there is an archaeological site about an hour west of Prince George, British Columbia, Canada, called Chinlac. Chinlac was a centre for the Carriers, and was abandoned before European contact. In the 1990's, one of the seven longhouses was excavated, and they found a Chinese coin from the 1200's - Stan Anonby
· A report on eight sites in Oregon where Chinese coins have been found over the years. Also Mongolian skulls were found at Raft Cove, just a little south of the NW tip (Cape Scott) of Vancouver Island. http://members.shaw.ca/jfrobinson/ABCR.htm - Bob Ward
· Burial site - An article in the local Seattle Times, December 2004, stated how an American Indian burial site was being excavated at a village known as Tse-whit-zen. 'The excavation inadvertently unearthed Tse-whit-zen, the largest prehistoric Indian village ever discovered in Washington, portions of which date back more than 1,700 years. … the history of the explorers who first made contact with the tribes’ ancestors on these same shores, bringing smallpox and other diseases that filed the tribal graves being unearthed today.' The other site is the site of the Lower Elwha Klallam Tribe. '…We have found whale out here on which our ancestors had feasted. We found all kinds of trade materials from ivory to Chinese coins, which our medicine men in those times took in trade for services that they may have provided to those that went by in the ships that came to the harbour areas here.' The site of the village is at Port Angeles in Washington State. The above is clear reference to pre-Columbian visits and trade on the west coast of N. America - Roger Hodge
· The Nez Perce Indian Reservation, Idaho has a 300-year-old Nez Perce dress that supposedly had Chinese beads on it. It is only about 300-350 miles from the west coast (Seattle area) and they are known to have traded with coastal tribes. That is also about the time they acquired horses (around 1700) from the Spanish via the Shoshone Indians who live a little further to the south east. So the beads could have come from either direction if not directly from the Chinese themselves.
The Nez Perce are well known for horse breeding. It is said that they mix Spanish horses with horses from Mongolia/China. (David Classen)
· We have been told of a piece of bronze-work that was hauled up by a fishing boat near the mouth of the Strait of Juan de Fuca, in the early to mid 1970s. At the time, it was thought by archaeologists from Washington State University to be of Chinese origin, and possibly a ship's decoration of some kind. The archaeologists, led by Dr. Richard D. Daugherty of WSU, had hoped to acquire the relic, but it was sold to a private party. Does anybody have any more news on this item? Steven C. Brown
· An archaeology student working on Kodiak Island stated that the Aleutiq natives, (also known as the Koniag), of the Kodiak area had Chinese coins when the first Russians arrived there. More information could be gleaned from the Aleutiq museum in Kodiak. (Dan DeRoux)
A reader has brought our attention to a very interesting article with accompanying illustrated plate from the Smithsonian in 1892. The citation is “Proceedings of the United States National Museum”, Volume XV, No. 899, 1892, page 221 (with Plate XXIV). This article, titled “Chinese Relics in Alaska” by Lieutenant T. Dix Bolles of the USN, describes a wooden mask that was donated to the Smithsonian in the 1880s. It was taken from a grave located near Chilcat Village. The mask includes two large bronze Chinese Temple Coins, used as the eyes in the mask. The age of the mask was determined by discussions with the local Chilcats, who indicated that the grave was that of a medicine man who had died two hundred years previously. If true, that would date the mask to the late 1600s. Bolles writes “… I am free to confess that I see no other possible conclusion to draw than that these coins were obtained two hundred years ago, and the natural surmise is that they came from a junk driven on the coast, Chinese most likely… To those who doubt the advent of junks on the West Coast at this early date, these facts will probably not be satisfactory, but it will be necessary for them to break down by direct evidence such a strong plea…” - James L. Huesmann

Stone buildings, artefacts, canals and aqueducts

- Stone markers found on the Queen Charlotte Islands at Masset on the northern tip of Haida Gwaii. (Christine Yates)
- Stone markers: British Columbia coast; Queen Charlotte Island (Margo Donovan).
- A boulder similar to the Moeraki boulders, on Long Beach on the West Coast of Vancouver Island, BC - The locals appear to have mounted it on a small wooden platform. It is roughly the same size and proportions as the Moeraki boulders, as well as those found at Cannonball River - David Lorrimer and Douglas Muir
- There are original source materials of the 18th century French discovery of carved stone pillars in the woods of Eastern Canada. These pillars were covered in Tartarian script. French Jesuits visited these pillars and eventually carried one off to France for study. It was considered very unusual that Asian artworks were left behind in the forests of Canada – more research needed (Roddy Heading)
- Possible Cannonballs / Counterweights - Dr Muir has had a good look around the west coast bays & found a collection of odd boulders in Florencia Bay, Canada, plus a totally round 1m diameter ball cut out from igneous rock. This ball is on top of the 50` high cliff surrounding Florencia Bay. We consider the 1m diameter ball to have been the work of a skilled stone mason.
- The Cannonball River got its name from a large number of round sandstone rocks at the mouth of the river where it debouches into the Missouri River them. Some of them were very like others on the Cannonball River, yellow sandstone, fairly small, and quite upstream of the Missouri. The Cannonball is far too shallow to have been traversed by anything other than a canoe or fleet of canoes. But some of the "Cannonballs" found at the mouth (in the 1930s and 1940s) were not only much larger, but made of different and much harder material than the sandstone cannonballs – possible Chinese sail counterweights. There are also persistent legends among the Mandan Indians near Bismarck of the Great Ship that sailed up the river – Rev. H R Stockert
- The petroglyphs of Afognak are said to contain Chinese characters – Joseph Davis
- Northwestern American and Canadian buildings appear similar in appearance to Chinese post and beam construction. Furthermore, decorations on their buildings appear to be similar to designs shown on the fleet ships. Strong resemblance to South Seas, Tiki style characters on the posts of one of the buildings. (Richard Schulte)
- Washington State: In William R. Corliss’s book, “Ancient Man: A Handbook of Puzzling Artifacts” there is a reference to a square, stone enclosure, 200 feet on each side, with two square pits within, located at the confluence of the Klickitat and Columbia rivers in Klickitat County, south-central Washington State, USA. A report describes remnants of cedar wood at this “fortress,” and quantities of arrowheads in the vicinity, but said the construction was ancient, beyond the memory of Native Americans in the late 19th Century. Could this site have any possible connection to China? Aerial photographs of the site as it appears today (much altered by a higher river level, and construction of nearby highways and railroads, but with three lines of trees appearing curiously close to the site as mapped in the Smithsonian report) are available on-line at: http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?11&Z=10&X=1582&Y=12654&W=1 (Daniel Spatz)
- Stone statue discovered on bank of Tennessee River near the present Pickwick Dam. It is a square limestone rock about 18+" by 10" by 6" thick with a Chinese looking face carved on the front, v-neckline robe. On the back, the hair is carved into a ponytail with a one "tie" holding it together. (Gary Shannon)
- A reader writes in discussing the wealth of signs of a pre-Columbian Chinese presence in Oregon. She describes anomalous stoneworks, for which no explanation is forthcoming. Also a series of low, 3 to 4 foot high fences, which were not built by locals nor the native peoples of the area. They describe 3 pyramidal hills, on private land, which were excavated by the University of Oregon prior to the 1970's. They are manmade structures covered with masonry, then covered in earth. Supposedly, Mayan-like items were excavated from the sites. The paper published on the excavation contained an illustration of a statue found there that could have been Oriental or Chinese. Very old Chinese pottery is often found in the area. In Central Oregon, between Redmond and Powell Butte, about a mile west of Powell Butte on the north side of the highway, are foundations in the desert that are constructed of cut stone, in which grow centuries'-old juniper trees. There are also such stone foundations at the foot of the buttes in the area and ancient wells that have long dried up. Some are tilted as if they had been struck by earthquakes. Asian-type wild horses were still running wild on the deserts between Redmond and Prineville in the 1930's and 1940's. They were said to be Mongolian horses. They were small, short-bodied, with big heads and were smaller than wild ponies, or any of the other small wild horses that ran in the area. There are plants, grasses and wild herbs characteristic of the Himalayas and China in the area just south of Mohawk, Oregon - Dr. Judi West


Mining operations found by first Europeans when they reached the New World
Further research needed

Advanced technologies found by first Europeans on arrival in New World
Further research needed

Plants indigenous to one continent, found on another

· The Vancouver Independent, Vancouver, Washington Territory, May 8th, 1884, has an article about the Wapato, a potato like vegetable that the Natives harvested in the lakes. The article makes the assumption that the Wapato is a native plant of China, and that the Chinese must have brought it (to the Oregon Territory) at one time. It claims the Chinese immigrants in the area during this period (1884) buy the Wapato from the natives, and prefer it to the potato, even though its cost is much greater. (Robert M. Thomas)
· Sequoia trees from China (now 600 years old)
· Reader Carlos Jimenez was puzzled to come across a sculpture of a pumpkin when visiting an exhibition of the famous Xi''An terracotta warriors from Emperor Qin Shi Huangdi''s burial complex. The objects in the exhibition are all dated to be from the Qin Dynasty (221-206BC) or the Han Dynasty (206BC-220 AD). If, as most encyclopedias will tell you, pumpkins originated in the Americas, how did this sculpture come to be part of this fascinating collection? Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. To view the sculpture please click on the following link or visit the gallery section: http://www.1421.tv/gallery.asp?Section=Stone buildings, mortar and carvings

Animals indigenous to one continent, found on another

· Babiroussa – wild pigs of Sulawesi found buried in chieftain’s grave (Vancouver Island).
· Queen Charlotte Islands – small deer appear Asian - await DNA test (G Bertieg).
· Wool dogs (E Miller and Susan Crockford)
· Ray White, DVM, a horse breeder and veterinary surgeon, was very strong in his belief that the American horse never was completely extinct as commonly believed, feeling that the Appaloosa of the Pacific Northwest was of Asian extration. The Appaloosa, used almost exclusively by the Nez Perce Indians was, in Dr. White's opinion, more of an Asian breed than Spanish, as are most Mustang - Austin J. Smith
· A website visitor remembers reading an art book 30 years ago while doing research on the Nez Percé Indians. He does not have the reference anymore, but the author suggested the possibility that the Appaloosa horse, bread by the Nez Percé, was Chinese. This horse was a recognizable breed by the time Lewis and Clark passed through the area. These Indians were the only example of native American Indians that were breeding horses. They understood breeding the best stallions to the best mares and practiced gelding inferior stallions. All other native Americans caught their horses wild or stole them from each other. The Nez Percé horses were highly prized by their neighbours. They were known for their speed, endurance and surefootedness. They were short legged, stocky and had large heads and thick necks. Their spotted rumps are the defining characteristic today. All these characteristics were common with the "Heavenly Horse" from China - Charlie Snyder
· Legend popular in Oregon historical circles is that a rhino was found on a Pacific Northwest beach, that was being transported back to China but was there due to a shipwreck - Byard Pidgeon
· The Nez Perce Indian Reservation, Idaho has a 300-year-old Nez Perce dress that supposedly had Chinese beads on it. It is only about 300-350 miles from the west coast (Seattle area) and they are known to have traded with coastal tribes. That is also about the time they acquired horses (around 1700) from the Spanish via the Shoshone Indians who live a little further to the south east. So the beads could have come from either direction if not directly from the Chinese themselves.
The Nez Perce are well known for horse breeding. It is said that they mix Spanish horses with horses from Mongolia/China. (David Classen)


Distinctive artwork carried from continent to continent

· Totem poles in Seattle, Vancouver and up the coast to Alaska are dentical to those from Wuhan, China (Geoff McCabe)
· Buildings similar in appearance to Chinese post and beam construction. Decorations on these appear similar in designs shown on fleet ships (Richard Schulte)
· A reader points out how there are strong similarities between Northwest Coast Indian art forms and Chinese representational forms of animals, particularly in bronze work of the Shang and Chou periods
· According to one reader, the most prominent and permanent display in the Anthropology Museum of British Columbia (Vancouver), is the birdman. It is the Haida native Americans' legend that all people were derived from this birdman. This is apparently similar to the Hemudu culture of China. If one compares the Chinese Taotie (ToTim) motif and the North American natives' totem motif, there are clear similarities. In China, Totim is one animal symbol (one of a Dragon's nine sons). In North America, it became many symbols including bears, birds, people etc. The cultural connection between the Totim on Shang dynasty utensils and the totem poles of North America is strikingly similar - Siu-Leung Lee

Customs and games exported from China to New World

· Iroquois custom of offering white dog to heaven at New Year – as in China
· Chinese secret societies
· Song similarities
· Similarities with potlatch ceremonies
· Wampum (compare with quipus in Peru and China) (Ranking).
· Monkey God style masks used by people of Northwestern American and Canadian – Chinese influence? these NW Americans also have very oriental features. (Richard Schulte)
· Pacific Northwest Indian musical instruments i.e. the drum are exceptionally similar that of the Chinese & Japanese - Doug Hockley
· The Haida played a variation of the game "pick-up sticks", which is of Chinese origin. It's commonly attributed to the ice-age land bridge across Bering Strait, but I would personally think that the game would be much more widespread amongst the aboriginal people of North America if this were so. As it is, the game existed amongst the Haida, and amongst tribes in California. (Michael Roellinghoff)
· The Canadian Plains Cree – a reader comments on how their sacred colours are also red, yellow, black, and white, as with Buddhism. In ancient times large stone wheels were laid out on the ground, the spokes of which pointed in four directions. Each direction is represented by one of the sacred colours: yellow is connected to south, black to west, white to north, and red to east - Judith Lishman


Armour, metal weapons and metal implements found in the New World

· Alaska – the Yup'ik and other Native Alaskans say that the detaching spearhead used by the seal and walrus hunters is actually a Chinese invention taught to them a long time ago – Joseph Davis

· The arts of the Haida people who populated the Queen Charlotte Islands in British Columbia, Canada are aesthetically similar to those of east-Asian cultures.
The Haida also used a type of armour common in Bronze Age China.
Apparently they acquired this armor first, and then parts of it were
incorporated into armors used by tribes as far south as California. This
would strongly suggest contact with Asia during the Shang or Zhou dynasties
- so, hypothetically speaking, 3,000 years ago. If true, the date 1421 is
simply a half-way point between Asian-American contact. (Michael Roellinghoff)
- Reader from Victoria, Southern tip of Vancouver Island mentions that the Haida Nation had body armor that is very similar to armor in ancient China. There is a picture on this website: www.civilization.ca/aborig/haida/havwa01e.html
The armor dates back to before 1421 but may indicate a link between the two areas. Haida Gwaii is a world heritage site as the Haida have continuously lived there for at least 15,000 years, possibly longer. They actually have oral memories of the global warming and glacial melting that happened 12,500 years ago which raised sea levels and formed Hecate Strait, which until then was part of their land. Perhaps they were already known to the Chinese. (Jacqui Ward)

 

[{Sentinel}]

Nice old chinese copper!

 

[imafishingnutt]

Some more reading




The geographic isolation of the northern coast of California, also known as the Lost Coast, prevented it from being discovered until virtually all of the continental United States was mapped out. "While other parts of the American continent were changing from wilderness to civilization; while the New England colonies were establishing footholds; while the Declaration of Independence was being signed in Philadelphia; while Lewis and Clark struggled through to the Columbia River, the northern California coast remained a strange and unknown land." The unique geography of Humboldt County played a major role in its history, and it still does today. Humboldt Bay, the coastal mountains, and the redwoods have defined this region's history and will define its future.

Humboldt Bay is the only deep water port between San Francisco and Coos Bay, Oregon, an area stretching about 600 miles. There is no other coastline in the continental U.S. that goes so far (300 miles) without a deep water harbor. Despite being the best harbor for such a long expanse of rugged coastline, Humboldt Bay remained undiscovered because it's extremely difficult to see from the ocean. A very narrow and treacherous opening to the harbor limits the bay's usefulness and scares off captains of ships. If it sounds like Humboldt Bay is risky to approach by water, it's even more difficult to approach by land. The rugged coastal mountains extend 150 miles in from the ocean and create a barrier to the outside world. These mountain ranges follow a general southeasterly to northwesterly direction, and the major river drainages of the Trinity, Mad, and Eel Rivers all flow northwest to the ocean. Explorers found these barriers nearly insurmountable. Today these same barriers contribute to the isolation of Humboldt County. For hundreds or even thousands of years, several Indian tribes existed in Humboldt and lived simply. The Hupas and Yuroks lived along the rivers and the Wiyots lived on Humboldt Bay. The rivers were full with salmon, and the bay was plentiful with shellfish and waterfowl. It was these Indians who first "discovered" Humboldt Bay.

Probably the first people the Indians saw were Japanese and Chinese. Their primitive junks were caught in the eastern drift of the Japanese current and thrown upon the rocky shores of the California coast. "Indian legends tell of yellow-skinned men thus cast ashore and adopted by the tribes, perhaps hundreds of years before the coming of the first white men's ships." During the 1800s, it is known that many Chinese and Japanese craft wrecked along the Pacific coast, adding credibility to this legend. "Most historians agree that the European discovery of California began in 1542 with the voyages of Juan Rodriguez Cabrillo, a Portuguese explorer in the employ of Antonio de Mendoza, Viceroy of New Spain." The Cabrillo expedition was meaningful to Humboldt Bay's history because it is believed that its sailors were the first Europeans to see the northern California coast. However, since there is no firsthand information, it can only be surmised that Cabrillo was the first Spaniard to sail through Humboldt waters.

From 1565 to 1815, the Spanish frequently traded with the Philippines. The Manila galleons sailed from Mexico to the Philippines and returned along the northern California coast. The only contact Spanish ships made with the northern California coast was with Cape Mendocino. The wooden Spanish ships were no match for the dangerous, rocky coastline of California. To make matters worse the low visibility, stormy weather, contrary winds, and fog-shrouded waters increased the chance of accidents. The Spanish had to keep their ships far offshore which made locating the nondescript bays and points impossible. From 1565 to 1815, the Spanish added no new information about the northern California coast. It may seem that the Spanish were not interested in finding new ports; however, this is not true. Usually the crews were weakened with scurvy, the ships needed repairs, and supplies needed to be replenished. They also were looking for possible harbors for protection from pirates and enemies. The California coast was just too dangerous for them to explore or to settle. Spain was not the only country exploring California's coast. When Elizabeth I became queen in 1558, she pursued English expansion. One of her noblest sailors, mariners, and pirates, Sir Francis Drake, was sent to raid Spain's Pacific ports and to explore the northeast corner of the Pacific. While searching to plunder the Manila galleons, Drake reached 42 degrees north off the coast of Oregon. "No one is absolutely certain that Sir Francis Drake entered Trinidad Bay with the 'Golden Hinde' in 1579, when he visited New Albion, as he called California. However, it is strongly suspected that he did visit the Humboldt coastline." Drake added nothing to the information about the location of Humboldt Bay and its surrounding area because his navigational charts were in Spanish and taken from seized ships.

In the next fifty years, Spanish explorers continued to look for a safe harbor. Sebastian Rodriguez Ceremenho, a Portuguese captain, was appointed by the Spanish to find a suitable port. On July 4, 1595, he set out from Manilla. He first saw land on November 5 at 42 degrees. He mapped the coast from 41 degrees to 30 degrees surprisingly accurately, but missed Humboldt Bay which is located just south of 41 degrees. Later in May of 1602, Sebastian Vizcaino a Spanish galleon commander set sail with three ships to survey and map the California coast. The most northerly point he reached was either 41 degrees or 43 degrees. Although he didn't discover Humboldt Bay, he did locate what was probably the Eel or the Mad River. "For 15 decades following Vizcaino's return in 1603, there is no record of any Spanish ships on the northwest coast. Seldom has the history of any section of the globe been stranger." Despite 200 years of ships passing the northwest coast of California, Humboldt Bay, the best port for hundreds of miles, and the surrounding region were never discovered.

From 1725 to 1775, the Russians set up outposts along the Pacific coast ranging from Alaska to Fort Ross, just north of San Francisco. Their primary interest was engaging in the prosperous sea otter pelt trade. Working for the Russian-American Fur Company in 1806, Jonathan Winship in his ship the O'Cain stumbled upon Humboldt Bay while looking for sea otters. He entered the bay, made a crude chart of it, and named it the Bay of Rezanof after an agent who employed him. He reported that the bay resembled the Bay of San Francisco, but strong southwest winds made it unnavigable. As the sea otter trade diminished, interest in California began to decline. For nearly 50 years, no other ships entered Humboldt Bay. Although coastal exploration decreased, inland the story was different. White men, interested in the gold and fur resources, made settlements east of the coastal mountains in Trinity and Siskiyou counties. Supplies were needed for the mining camps, and they needed to ship gold out. It was widely believed that the Trinity River emptied into Trinidad Bay.

In 1849 Josiah Gregg, a doctor from Missouri, led an expedition of 7 men to find an overland route to the Pacific Ocean. Gregg began his trek from the Weaverville gold camp. According to L.K. Wood, one of Gregg's company, "Here commenced an expedition, the marked and prominent features of which were constant and unmitigated toil, hardship, privation and suffering. Before us, stretching as far as the eye could reach, lay mountains, high and rugged, deep valleys and difficult canyons, now filled with water by the recent, heavy rains."

They had 150 miles to travel over the coastal mountains with 2 months supply of food carried by mules. Gregg simply headed west with no maps and the knowledge that he would inevitably encounter Indian tribes. They soon entered dense redwood forests, which were extremely difficult to penetrate, because the giants often lay across the ground. The group had to lead their mules around every redwood tree, permitting them to average only 2 miles per day. Another factor that slowed the group was that Gregg constantly stopped to measure latitude, redwood trees, or whatever terrain they confronted. Near starvation, Gregg's party finally emerged from the redwoods at the Pacific Ocean. They celebrated by eating a bald eagle. They were about 8 miles north of present day Trinidad. They walked south past Trinidad and soon reached a river. Gregg's group wanted to cross the river with no delays, but Gregg insisted on taking his measurements. The party ignored his comments and boarded several canoes. Furiously, Josiah Gregg jumped into a canoe as it was departing and kept silent until they reached the other end. Then Gregg went berserk. He cursed every member of the group and made insulting comparisons about his companions. The party considered murdering Gregg and depositing him and his instruments into the river. They thought better of it. The river was aptly named the Mad River by Gregg. Soon they found Humboldt Bay, and they allowed Gregg to conduct his measurements. After stocking up on food, the group walked back to San Francisco to report their discovery of the bay. Josiah Gregg was the first person who conquered the geographic isolation of the Humboldt region by penetrating the dense redwoods and enduring the hardships of the coastal mountains. Once the sea captains from San Francisco knew that there was a port to the north, it motivated them once again to search for a coastal route and find the long-sought-for bay.

After the Gregg Expedition, two ships from San Francisco made a voyage in March 1850 to enter Humboldt Bay. The General Morgan couldn't penetrate the heavy swells on the bar, so they were forced to stop in Trinidad Bay, unable to enter Humboldt Bay. The Laura Virginia stopped in Trinidad Bay and set two parties of men on land. One was to find Humboldt Bay by walking south. The party found the entrance to the bay, and it was decided to send a small boat through the entrance before the Laura Virginia was to enter. Two other small boats followed. The next day, April 14, 1850, the sailors from the Laura Virginia entered the bay and named it Humboldt Bay after Baron Von Humboldt, a famous naturalist. They began the settlement of Humboldt City on present day Buhne Point. The sailors of the Laura Virginia formed the Laura Virginia Association and began the development of the area. On May 12, 1853, Trinity County was divided into two parts. The western portion was named Humboldt County.

From 1860 to 1900, there was enormous growth in Humboldt County. Agriculture was a booming industry in Humboldt. Potatoes, oats, barley, peas, corn, hay and butter were shipped out of Humboldt Harbor in large numbers. Humboldt supplied all of San Francisco with peas. Fishing was a flourishing industry in this time period, but lumber exceeded every other export from Humboldt. One acre of land yielded 1,000,000 board feet of lumber. The giant redwoods previously thought unfit for market were in demand in places like Mexico, South America, Sandwich Islands, Australia, New York and other eastern states. There were no attempts at reforestation as lumberjacks tore down the trees from the countryside.

Ships were the only way in and out of the three big cities of Eureka, Bucksport and Union (now Arcata), so the harbor was a very busy place. Ships of all kinds waited in the harbor for goods. Steamers took passengers to and from San Francisco. In 1876, one thousand ships entered Humboldt Bay. Humboldt County was booming and experiencing growth like it never would again. The bay and the redwoods, once obstacles to its discovery, were proving to be the greatest factors in its growth.

For many years Humboldt Bay was the only easy access to the outside world. Only stagecoach roads ran to the east and south. Finally, in 1914, a railroad was completed that joined Eureka to San Francisco. "Undoubtedly, road construction in Mendocino, Humboldt, and Del Norte Counties ranks high among the world's most difficult roadbuilding terrains because of heavy rainfall, rivers that rise 60 to 100 feet almost overnight, nearly sheer slopes, and unstable foundations that are constantly sliding." Highway 101 was constructed in 1920 providing relatively reliable linkage to the south, but some sections were unpaved until 1925. Highway 299 followed much later providing a connection to the east. An airport in McKinleyville was built by the U.S. Navy in 1942. As ground and air transportation increased, the importance of the bay decreased. Although linkage to the outside world has improved, the geography and climate still keep Humboldt County isolated. Fog at the airport sometimes delays or prevents flights. Landslides on Highway 101 and 299 can close access to the south, north and east. Railroad maintenance repairs have prevented service to the south for as much as a year at a time.

In an attempt to understand how the economy of Humboldt Bay could be diversified and strengthened, a report was commissioned by the city of Eureka and Humboldt County. In 1991, the Humboldt Bay Development Plan was published. One suggestion was to devote a part of the bay to offloading container ships from Japan, which would create many more jobs in the area and make the economy less reliant on the timber industry. Trade with Asia is becoming more and more frequent, and it takes one day less for a ship from Japan to get to Humboldt Bay than it does to San Francisco. But the cold truth is that there isn't enough local population to purchase these products. Unlike San Francisco, Humboldt cannot put these products on the railroad and ship them to the western U.S. quickly. It is so far away from populous areas that trucking seems out of the question. Once again, the geographic isolation of the area must be confronted. Four additional proposals for developing Humboldt Bay appear to have potential: tourism, commercial fishing, U.S. Naval vessel calls and cruise ships. To make the waterfront attractive to tourists from land or sea, the ugly, abandoned buildings must be torn down and replaced with vessel support services, restaurants, retail stores, parks, etc. Fishermen want shore side working space to mend nets, conduct repairs and load equipment. A facility catering to them would be beneficial. Improving the waterfront would also attract navy ships and cruise ships to Humboldt Bay. All these proposals sound promising, but the isolation of the area must be kept in mind. For 450 years geographic isolation has defined Humboldt County's history. The future of this area remains unknown. History teaches us that the redwoods, coastal mountains, and the Pacific Ocean will determine its character. Isolation is Humboldt County's identity. However, with the advent of the Information Age, isolation will no longer be a limiting factor in Humboldt County. Internet pages like this one will not be held back by the impenetrable redwoods or coastal mountains. Now we can enjoy the beauty of our isolation, and still join the rest of the world on the Information Superhighway.

 

[imafishingnutt]

Please note the blue reading her
that is not far from here
its about 50 miles
now i have heard stories befor of chinese coins washing up on the beach but havent heard them till another tneter reminded me of it.




America W coast, Vancouver Island, Schooner Cove/ Lovekin Rock A Wreck is approx 130 x 30 x 27 ft –longer than Cook’s Endeavour or Vancouver’s Discovery. Many Chinese artefacts found nearby. (Lake River Potters, Chinese vases, etc). Wreck of teak (?), carrying rice (?). Hector Williams and Bob Hassell’s information. Exact location known. Magnetometer surveys show bronze fastenings.
America W coast, Vancouver Island ‘Asian Uclulet’. MR “Asian Pot Wreck” 15 nautical miles off mouth of Juan de Fuca Strait hauled up Asian pot. Numerous articles of Japanese/Korean/Chinese origin on Vancouver Island (see Synopsis of Evidence). In c. 1400 mysterious colony of potters settled in valley between Vancouver Lake and Columbus River (Robert Hassell’s information) and disappeared c. 1700.
America W coast, Vancouver Island (Clatsop Beach) MR Point Adams, mouth of Columbia River. Swan, J G, The Northwest Coast, 1857.
America W coast, Oregon, Near to Neakahnie Beach MR Ming porcelain found on Netarts sand spit. Pulley made of S E Asian hardwood dated c. 1410. Cabrillo’s map of California (c. 1543) shows wrecked Chinese junks. Cabrillo – Goetzman & Williams U of Oklahoma Pubs 1992, Atlas of N. American Exploration.
South American W coast,
Chile Grotius p. 68, first Spanish to round Horn, found junks near Taroja (220 S) Ranking Supplement p. 35
American W coast, California, Drake’s Bay MR Considerable amount of Chinese porcelain found here. Drake reported to have “chased a junk”. Cabrillo’s map shows junk. GM has bibliography Drake
America, W coast, Sacramento A+ Separate file. Pearson, investigating. Core drilling April 03. Electro magnetic survey completed 02/03. Wood carbon dated c. 1410 (Beta Analytic Lab,
Miami, Florida). Chinese brass plate found buried Susanville. Dr John Furry and Mr Dave Stewart’s information. Approx 30m x 8m (as Pandanan). Report by Prof. Conyers, Oct 2002.
For more information please visit: http://www.psmerg.org/chinalanding

 

[topdog]

WOW!!! Awesome find.

 

[civilman1]

Ima....Just gonna have to leave you with a Big Congrat's right now,.....look's like a lot of reading to catch up on,be back soon hopefully....Awesome.....

 

[xlt nh]

Congrats on a great find and thanks for sharing!

HH, Hank 8)

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Its a lot of reading but some very interesting points are made here.
I am beginning to believe that Columbas was not the first to touch US soil.

I hate to bust anyones bubble here, but honestly, are you sure that this find has been properly identified?

1-It has a very large center hole that does not match coins on the the database that I researched and it doesnt match your picture posted.
2- It doesnt have a ridge on the obverse. (maybe worn off)
3- Unless pictures are deceiving, it doesnt seem to have the corrosion you would expect from copper/brass in a saltwater environment all those years. And...
4- one expert has already said it does not appear to be an original Yong-Le.
http://www.zeno.ru/showgallery.php?cat=1588

Whatever it turns out to be it is a nice find, Fishingnut, but I think it warrants more research.
I hope Im wrong. Here are some shipwrecked 15th century Yong-Le's. Your find appears in very good condition.

 

[Skrimpy]

so what you are all saying is we don't have a history professor here willing to do a little research, take these items and write a paper to shake what is taken as historical fact do we?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

so what you are all saying is we don't have a history professor here willing to do a little research, take these items and write a paper to shake what is taken as historical fact do we?

I think we should look for a better match in the existing database.

 

[Master Sarge]

I told you fishingnut, do you believe me know?

 

[SoreKneesDayton]

Wonderful find Oregon. Chinese coins from railroad workers?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Im trying to search for you, but I cant seem to find one with the large center and the smooth back.
I ll look some more. I have a cash coin myself so I have saved a few links when I was searching for mine.


Left: Ming Dynasty Yong-Le or Yung-Lo Right: imafishingnut's find
1403-1425

 

[imafishingnutt]

Its a lot of reading but some very interesting points are made here.
I am beginning to believe that Columbus was not the first to touch US soil.

I hate to bust anyones bubble here, but honestly, are you sure that this find has been properly identified?

1-It has a very large center hole that does not match coins on the the database that I researched and it doesn't match your picture posted.
2- It doesn't have a ridge on the obverse. (maybe worn off)
3- Unless pictures are deceiving, it doesn't seem to have the corrosion you would expect from copper/brass in a saltwater environment all those years. And...
4- one expert has already said it does not appear to be an original Yong-Le.
http://www.zeno.ru/showgallery.php?cat=1588

Whatever it turns out to be it is a nice find, Fishingnut, but I think it warrants more research.
I hope I'm wrong. Here are some shipwrecked 15th century Yong-Le's. Your find appears in very good condition.

i HAVE NOT DISCLOSED THE EXACT LOCATION OF THIS FIND BUT I FEEL ITS FAIR TO TELL YOU THAT THE COIN WAS FOUND ON A MINUS TIDE WHERE THE SALT IS MIXED WITH FRESH WATER VIA SMALL CREEK LIKE RIVER FLOWING OVER IT
MABY THAT WHY IT HASNT CORRODED,
ALSO WHERE WERE THOSE COINS YOU HAVE FOUND
WATER TEMP SALINITY MAY HAVE A LOT TO DO WITH IT.
I NEVER SAID THE COIN WAS A SHIPWRECK COIN
HECK IT COULD HAVE BEEN DROPPED 20 YEARS AGO FOR THAT MATTER HECK IF i KNOW.
ALL THIS HISTORY STARTED WITH TRYING TO FIND OUT MORE ABOUT IT.
WHERE IT CAME FROM WE WILL NEVER KNOW.
AS FOR IT BEING FROM 1408-1424 IS FACT

YOU ALSO STATE THAT IT WARRANTS MORE RESEARCH
I THOUGHT THATS WHAT WE WERE ALL DOING.

EITHER WAY IT GOS IM STILL SIKED ABOUT THE FIND AND ODDS ARE I WILL NEVER FIND AN OLDER COIN.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I understand. You have a very good attitude. It may be an original 15th century coin, I dont know. It does seem to have some differences than the ones you pictured as a match.
Buried in the muck may explain the lack of severe corrosion, or maybe it was more recently lost, of course. The pics of the shipwreck Yong-Le cash coins I posted are not mine, they are from the link given.
I hope I havent offended you.
I think you should send pics of the coin with descriptions to some experts and let us know the results.

NICE FIND! 8) 8)

 

[imafishingnutt]

Toraisen

TRY SEARCHING THAT WORD AS I AM
THATS WHAT THEY CALLED JAPAN COINS THAT WERE ONCE CHINESE COINS

 

[imafishingnutt]

ALL RIGHT THIS IS GETTING INTERESTING BECAUSE
THE COINS IMPORTED TO LIKE MINE WERE MADE OF COPPER. AND I QUOTE COPER.
MINE IS MADE OF BRONZE LIKE THE ONES FROM 1408
THIS NEEDS MORE RESEARCH AND THIS IS WHAT I CAME UP WITH

IMPORTED JAPANESE COIN TRADE IN THE 17TH CENTURY

To understand why Japanese merchants brought copper coins to the Viets for trade in the 17th century, one should review the monetary history of Japan. Japan was originally rich in natural resources of precious metals such as silver, gold and copper. As early as the beginning of the 8th century, gold, silver and copper coins not only existed but also were minted in Japan. These coins were made for reward more than for use as a means of exchange. In those days, Japan was still in the stage of barter economy. From the 12th century to 1587, Japan stopped minting and sent goods to China to exchange for Chinese copper coins, as demand for coins gradually increased. In the 15th century Ashikaga Shogunate sent request to the Ming dynasty in China many times for a supply of copper coins. Therefore the Toraisen, a imported coin from China, and such as Jia Ding Tung Pao (Katei Tsuho) of the Sung, Hong Wu Tung Pao (Kobu tsuho) and Yung Lo Tung Pao (Eiraku Tsuho) of the Ming circulated throughout Japan. Meanwhile the supply of Toraisen was still not enough to fulfil the demand for money due to the expansion of commercial trades. The nobles to fill the gap minted Shichusen, privately minted Japanese coin. In the 16th century, cracked or worn out Toraisen and poor quality Shichusen were called Bitasen, a poor quality coin. People began to select coins and to refuse the face value of Bitasen. In the Tokugawa period, the exchange ratio between the Toraisen and Bitasen was 4 to 1. The Shogun wanted to resolve the monetary disorder, to monopolize the authority of minting coins and to standardize Japanese currency. In 1608, Tokugawa prohibited the circulation of Bitasen, including the imported Chinese coins. He promoted the production of gold, silver and copper mines and the application of sophisticated Chinese technology to refine the metal. Gold and silver coin and bar as well as the Tensho Tsuho, Genna Tsuho and Kanei Tsuho began to replace the old coins.

Japanese merchants got a bright idea of buying these devalued and banned coins with a low price in Japan and selling them to the foreign merchants, then to other countries, making huge profits. In that period, Nguyen Lord had conflict with Trinh Lord. The southern Nguyen ruler needed copper to cast canon for the war.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Maybe the center hole and smooth back mean nothing, or maybe a rarer variation.
I have found some Japanese pics with large center holes but not a Yong-Le.