HOLY COW my oldest coin to date (1408-1424 A.D) UPDATE new pics

[imafishingnutt]

This is what I found today on a minus tide
i detected near the water on a minus tide where you cant normally detect
and this is what I found.

UPDATE I ADDED THE TWO CLOSE UPS OF THE COIN

IMA SO EXCITED



24.5mm
Obv.: Yung Lo T'ung Pao
Rev.: Nail Mark on top left
Rarity:
Ref.: Not listed

HOLY COW ,,,,,......Reign Title: Yung Lo (1408-1424 a.d.)

However, we must take into account that in Japan during the period 1587-1617
were cast coins with the same legend
Now I'm stoked

THE COIN I FOUND...


THE ONE I FOUND RESEARCHING IT ON LINE...


​

 

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[ace1968]

What type metal is it?

 

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[imafishingnutt]

Bronze
I just got the second email back from the two coin collectors of chinese coins and they said they did not make replica coins for this coin but they did make them by the millions and when the coins were no longer in circulation they used them in crafting, so the coin is real
How it got in the harbour of Depoe bay is another questing it was found in a location non accesible to people without getting wet or a minus tide. So to argue his point that he thinks its fake he is wrong. And i have no doubt it is the oldest coin found in oregon detecting to date. befor 1900 people here on the coast didnt have money and also i know there was a tribe of indians living on the harbour back then till the goverment moved them, i supose they could have traded for the coin till someone lost it. we will never know. to say my coin didnt belong on the banner was wrong. and to continualy try to discredit my find was rude, there is a fine line between solving found items and being rude. thanks cypres but I believe i proved you wrong. heres another link send by collector of chinese coins.
Zeno - Oriental Coins Database - Yong-le 1403-1425

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Bronze
I just got the second email back from the two coin collectors of chinese coins and they said they did not make replica coins for this coin but they did make them by the millions and when the coins were no longer in circulation they used them in crafting, so the coin is real
How it got in the harbour of Depoe bay is another questing it was found in a location non accesible to people without getting wet or a minus tide. So to argue his point that he thinks its fake he is wrong. And i have no doubt it is the oldest coin found in oregon detecting to date. befor 1900 people here on the coast didnt have money and also i know there was a tribe of indians living on the harbour back then till the goverment moved them, i supose they could have traded for the coin till someone lost it. we will never know. to say my coin didnt belong on the banner was wrong. and to continualy try to discredit my find was rude, there is a fine line between solving found items and being rude. thanks cypres but I believe i proved you wrong. heres another link send by collector of chinese coins.
Zeno - Oriental Coins Database - Yong-le 1403-1425

I wrote a long post and then deleted it and revised it as I refreshed my memory. 2008 is a long time ago.. It had been many years I forgot all about this thread but it today came to my attention. (I thought it was pretty much concluded)

Its not up to me what goes in the banner or what doesnt. My personal opinon it should stay right here as a learning experience to all treasure hunters, collectors and researchers..

Why dont you take better pictures front and back and post them in the What Is It section so we can better determine the authenticity of this coin? Fair enough? Im sure you want to know the truth and I am really hoping for you as I hope everybodys finds are old and valuable. IMO there is no fine line with discovering the truth. I am not an expert, pics can be deceiving and I would have no problem saying Im wrong. But I have found a matching pic, raised some very valid points and many questions remain. Looking forward to your reply.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

you didnt ID nothing go rain on someone else im glad i popped back in.
reading your comments they are starting to piss me off no offence but i call BS

You read my comments in 2008, yet they are pissing you off now?? You waited 5 years before you decided to get other opinions

Please post some better pics front and back over on the What Is It forum. I dont care if Im right or wrong and neither do the WIIT members. We are only interested in the truth. Thanks.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

OK OK so after all the doubt on my coin i took better pics and sent them to a Coin dealer collector of chinese coins,
1. the email replies the coin is not fake as some may see,
2. the question is how it arrived and here is his email on how some arrived.
either way it is still the oldest coin to date found in Oregon.
here is his reply Email paste.

I doubt it is a replica, and I am fairly certain your attribution to the Ming period is correct. However, that does not mean it was lost there in the Ming Period. Even in the 1880's the strings of cash circulating in China had a fair number of these coins in them (and many much older coins, as Schjoth reports finding Han Dynast Wu Shu coins in some of the strings he went through). The coin looks like it has suffered salt water corrosion, and if it had been there since Ming times I there would be anything left. It most I would say it was exposed to salt water for 150 years.

There are many ways it could have arrive long after the Ming period, but here are the three most likely :

1) Large numbers Chinese coins, some of which where this type, came over from China in the 19th century Chinese people who came over to work the gold mines. In Oregon that is the most likely answer and in that case it would have arrived after 1850.

2) Many more came over with Chinese workers who came over to build the rail ways in the 1870's to 1890's. Although I suspect gold miners is less likely.

3) Another possibility is that after these coins no longer circulated in China there were used as decorations on all types of goods made in China for export to the West. Chinese sewing baskets being the most common. Here is a page with images of two such baskets, probably made after 1900 with beads and coins on them :

http://www.chinesesewingbaskets.com/small_baskets/page_8.html

One of these baskets throw away into a river could put coins like this in that location as later as the 1950's (that much corrosion could occur that fast).

I have seen coins of this general period found in Yukon gold camp sites, British Columbia railway camp sites, and I once dug a 18th century one with a metal detector on the grounds of an old Bakery here in Calgary, along with coins from the 1920's.

Robert Kokotailo

just copying for the record.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Bronze
I just got the second email back from the two coin collectors of chinese coins and they said they did not make replica coins for this coin

Did you send them my link? What do they call a modern machine struck token? Zeno - Oriental Coins Database - Machine struck copy of the Ming dynasty Yung Lo

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Well I thought about it and maybe a banner thread is not the place to question the authenticity of an item. Post it to the What Is It Forum please with better pics and hopefully the knowlegable members will be glad to help. We can post authentic and replica side by side with your find. 2008 was a long time ago but I never questioned that it wasnt found exactly where and how you described it. If I broke any TN rule it would have been deleted long ago.


But I will gladly voluntarily delete my posts if the WIIT Forum is able to come to any conclusions about its authenticity. You have found several good explanations for the lack of severe corrosion in saltwater. We may never be able to prove one way or the other but its worth a try dont you think? Dont you want to know the truth?

We can also invite Robert to the discussion as he appears very knowlegable on coins. http://www.calgarycoin.com/bios.htm Just try not to turn it into some kind of personal revenge vendetta. The pupose is to make the proper identification.

 

[CRUSADER]

OK OK so after all the doubt on my coin i took better pics and sent them to a Coin dealer collector of chinese coins,
1. the email replies the coin is not fake as some may see,
2. the question is how it arrived and here is his email on how some arrived.
either way it is still the oldest coin to date found in Oregon.
here is his reply Email paste.

I doubt it is a replica, and I am fairly certain your attribution to the Ming period is correct. However, that does not mean it was lost there in the Ming Period. Even in the 1880's the strings of cash circulating in China had a fair number of these coins in them (and many much older coins, as Schjoth reports finding Han Dynast Wu Shu coins in some of the strings he went through). The coin looks like it has suffered salt water corrosion, and if it had been there since Ming times I there would be anything left. It most I would say it was exposed to salt water for 150 years.

There are many ways it could have arrive long after the Ming period, but here are the three most likely :

1) Large numbers Chinese coins, some of which where this type, came over from China in the 19th century Chinese people who came over to work the gold mines. In Oregon that is the most likely answer and in that case it would have arrived after 1850.

2) Many more came over with Chinese workers who came over to build the rail ways in the 1870's to 1890's. Although I suspect gold miners is less likely.

3) Another possibility is that after these coins no longer circulated in China there were used as decorations on all types of goods made in China for export to the West. Chinese sewing baskets being the most common. Here is a page with images of two such baskets, probably made after 1900 with beads and coins on them :

http://www.chinesesewingbaskets.com/small_baskets/page_8.html

One of these baskets throw away into a river could put coins like this in that location as later as the 1950's (that much corrosion could occur that fast).

I have seen coins of this general period found in Yukon gold camp sites, British Columbia railway camp sites, and I once dug a 18th century one with a metal detector on the grounds of an old Bakery here in Calgary, along with coins from the 1920's.

Robert Kokotailo

I'm not getting involved with the IDing, but I totally agree that how ever old it was, it was lost only 100-150 years ago. Therefore, the 'context' of the original date of the coin is circa 1890s, not hundreds of years earlier. Therefore, it is telling us more about the Chinese settlers than some theory of early discovery. That said, it still is your oldest coin & should be kept as such - CONGRATS.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Im not sure why I get involved so much with the correct ID. Maybe we should just call every find old, Confederate, Roman, Viking, historic or valuable and we can all be happy in a world of make believe. Is that what we want here at TN? If thats what TN wants and supports, Im out of here.

Have you ever heard the saying "dont shoot the messenger"? I dont believe you are looking with an open mind.


For what its worth the coins in your link sent in the second email do not match at all. No way. The characters are not in the same alignment and this can be easily seen.. I could paste them side by side but this is not the forum for that. The nail hole is most likely after mint. Also they all have a rim. I doubt the rim has worn off on one side only. I suggested you should send pictures to the Zeno database 5 years ago! Sending poor pics around to a few collectors is probably not the best way to authenticate. If you have better pics please post them. Another suggestion is test the composition.


From your link. Apparently there is a authentic Japanese version as well as an authentic Chinese version and of course there is a token version along with numerous replica versions. The Chinese authentic version composition as follows

Alloy composition of the coin is Cu 75.08, Sn 12.78, As 0.61, Pb 11.52, Zn,Sb,Bi,Fe,Co,Ni all are below detection level, Sum 99.99%, microprobe data in scanning mode on 125x100 mkm surface. The alloy is ternary: the groundmass of composition Cu 89.60, Sn 7.12, As 1.69, Pb 1.38, Sum 99.79 % (point microprobe data) contain minor more bright in BSE inclusions Cu 68.23, Sn 31.16, Co 0.54, Sum 99.93% and abundant 3-10 mkm drops of pure lead.
So we have here As-bearing lead bronze usual for Chinese cast. Moderate high tin content, too low arsenic one and absence of significant iron admixture together says against of Japanese origin of the coin.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

...to continualy try to discredit my find was rude, there is a fine line between solving found items and being rude. thanks cypres but I believe i proved you wrong. heres another link send by collector of chinese coins.
Zeno - Oriental Coins Database - Yong-le 1403-1425

Thanks but no thanks Imafishingnut the only thing you have proven is that you havent bothered to read anything I posted because thats the exact same link I posted back in 2008 in reply #28.

I had no choice but to go back and read the entire thread in its entirety. Passing this machine stamped token as an authentic 15th century cast coin is fraud IMO. Here is a side by side comparison of an authentic and your replica find and anyone can clearly see it doesnt match. Your characters are smaller than the center hole which is a common theme with known replicas. Your back has no rim whatsover. The center hole can not possibly be bigger because of corrosion because it is rimmed. Nail hole is obviously post mint. Please invite any collectors you can email into the discussion. If you refuse to post it in the What Is It Forum, maybe we can do it right here.

One of these baskets throw away into a river could put coins like this in that location as later as the 1950's (that much corrosion could occur that fast).

quote Robert Kokotailo



.
The top pic is a replica machine stamped tourist token. Notice the color of modern bronze.

Bottom left authentic cast Chinese cash coin with patina and bottom right is Imafishingnuts banner find. The lettering size as compared to the hole does not match.

 

[kuger]

all I will say is that litterally hundreds if not thousands of chinese coins are dug in OREGON,Washington,Nevada,Idaho,and Calfornia every year,and %99 of the people that dig them pitch em in jar,and do not spend the time to ID them.I do have mine IDed every so often,and will tell you,your assumption that you have dug the oldest coin in Oregon is baseless and one you cant prove...many I personally dig date to the 1600's,and as for how or why they end up anyplace is endless possibilities I will tell you that in 1855 100 Chinese coins equaled ONE CENT,so they were not really cared after