has montezumas tomb been found ...?

[Oroblanco]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

I have to propose that to locate the tomb of Montezuma we ought to turn to the original sources, and (if memory serves) the dead body of Montezuma was turned over to the Aztecs at the palace in Tenochtitlan, and there the trail goes cold. At least it does for me.

Then we have Amerindian legends of Montezuma being entombed in Arizona, but at Montezuma Head, not in the Superstitions. The Superstitions have a tremendous "draw" for some folks and it seems that legends get translocated into the Superstitions with no good reason - as if there were not already enough legends there. I think it is not only a mean trick to do, but is taking away something from the numerous other places with intriguing legends, like Montezuma Head. Blindbowman has not answered my question as to why the Amerindians would have such a legend attached to Montezuma Head if the Aztec king were actually buried in the Superstitions. The way things are getting translocated, we could as well place the tomb of King Arthur there and the Lost Ark of the Covenant, with equally thin proof to back up the theories.

I suspect that Blindbowman MIGHT be mis-interpreting some or much of the information he is obtaining through the use of "remote-viewing" or "Shamanistic" methods - that many of these things, such as an image of the Aztec king, are SYMBOLIC in nature and NOT literal, but that Blindbowman, despite his penchant for working out codes, is not seeing these things as symbolic but as LITERAL. Only field investigation can prove or disprove his theories, and here we are falling short.

Oroblanco

 

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[Oroblanco]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Greetings Blindbowman and everyone,

I agree with you here on several points - that we are trying to fit Aztlan with some known historical site(s),that the TV special on Atlantis making the Minoans the original Atlantians is a poor fit on a number of points etc.

Here is my question for you amigo - just what is it that you believe you have found in the Superstitions? A lost city, a lost civilization, a lost shrine or temple, a lost tomb, a lost mine, a secret hiding place for some sort of holy relic(s) or what? You have proposed a number of ideas which only serves to confuse me, for in each case there are clues that ought to pin it down beyond a reasonable doubt, but we have problems with every one (thus far). You seem to be convinced that you have found something quite profound or historically important, but have not (yet) managed to identify it to the level that would likely convince the historians (just my own opinion, perhaps there is enough already I just don't know) so why not just lay it all out here and we can see the evidences that have been puzzling you (and us) for some time now? It is just possible that you have in fact discovered something important, and it is also just possible that it could be something we have not even discussed. The American southwest has a number of ancient civilizations/cultures with a history reaching back over thousands of years, and most of these people had no written language so we are left with numerous and sometimes massive mysteries to puzzle us.

It seems unlikely that something like a lost Aztlan would have been overlooked by so many tens of thousands of people who searched over the Superstitions for over a century now, but IF perhaps the results of centuries of natural erosion, growth of plants/brush, earthquakes, etc it is just possible that the remains are so badly eroded or hidden by growth etc that it is not apparent to the casual observer. Just look at the recent discoveries in the upper Amazon basin which have been overlooked for centuries, a massive man-altered region with mound-cities and canals running for many miles etc for one example of how ancient ruins can be overlooked.

One more question for you amigo - you began this thread with a question, "Has Montezuma's tomb been found?" so I ask you this: what led you to believe this discovery is possibly the tomb of the Aztec emperor Montezuma?

Or perhaps you are pulling our collective leg here and just playing a game, in which case it has been an interesting one and I would like to know the intended end gate. Is it to "make fools" of a bunch of treasure hunters? Is it to help you identify what you have found? Is it to mislead other treasure hunters away from a site you believe to be important? Is it picking the brains of your fellow treasure hunters? Or is it a game for laughs? Just curious amigo, I hope that you did not think that I was irritated over it.
Oroblanco

 

[Peerless67]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Oro I dont mean to crash your question but I thought he was talking about montezumas tomb.
As for being confused, you and me both

 

[Zephyr]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

<sigh> (Just jumping in here....)
Okay, the first thing to realize about the "Atlantis legend" is that it was created by Plato as a literary device for the philisophical point he was making. Something that has been conveniently ignored by those who have since embellished the story and presented as "fact" that Atlantis really existed (and making a very lucrative market for those pushing it on the believers and gullible.)
However, there was an actual "Atlantis" event in Plato's lifetime of a city (and an important one at the time too) sinking and being swallowed by the sea overnight due to an earthquake, which he drew on for his story. This Greek city was called Helike, and information can be found here:

http://www.helike.org/atlantis.shtml

"Atlantis/Aztecs"
I suppose Noah's Ark will be claimed to be in the Superstitions next...?

 

[Peerless67]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Noah's ark is in the supers, its right on top of the Arc of the covenent, I thought everyone knew that

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Hi Zephyr,

Not to crash your theory there that Plato "invented" Atlantis, but for one example of a direct reference to Atlantis over 100 years before Plato (360 BC), read Herodotus (480 BC) 'the Histories' book 1, 202 - "thalassa he Atlantis" explicitly spelled that way. (A literal translation is "sea of Atlantis" but most English translations substitute the word "Atlantic" which changes the meaning a bit.) I know the story of Helike well, but it is no Atlantis - however it is fair proof that a sudden and severe natural disaster can wipe out a whole city in a flash. Another one you might be able to find is a bronze urn excavated in Troy that had an inscription that said "from the king of Atlantis" and dating to >1200 BC. Plutarch accused Plato of embellishing the truth about Atlantis in his "Life of Solon" giving the city wondrous fountains etc but that the place was a real place, and said that Solon never finished his history of it which we do not possess today but would date to ~ 900 BC. There are some who have theorized that the story of Atlantis and the great flood of Noah are one and the same event, pointing to similarities such as the ten kings/ten patriarchs, corruption and violence etc.

Sorry for going off on the tangent again amigos, most folks are content to accept what the majority of historians give us as "history" - that it has been a linear progression, from stone-age to computers, which is only partially correct. Mankind has had a history with many ups and downs, not linear but from primitive to advanced to primitive repeatedly.

I would like to see the whole of our friend Blindbowman's evidence that he has collected, don't have to see every single bit of course but the most important parts collected together - perhaps one of our learned members here would be able to put the pieces together and make a conclusive identification. I also hope to read what it was that led him to think "Montezuma's Tomb" - even if it was in a vision.

Peerless67 wrote:

Noah's ark is in the supers, its right on top of the Arc of the covenent, I thought everyone knew that

Wow! Do you have any fuzzy photos of it amigo?

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope that you all find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Roy,

By now, I should think it would be obvious that what bb has found is an audience to parade his book ideas past, to find out what floats. We are seeing the fertile imagination of a fledgling Lewis Carroll working on his own version of Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, while only taking Laudanum for medicinal purposes.

The proof you seek will be forthcoming in bb's book. It will be just as fuzzy as the logic and important pictures/evidence he has offered up here. Once again, with the help of a small army of proofreaders, I believe it will be a good read......assuming you enjoy fiction. The problem is, we already know the beginning, the end and all of the twists and turns the story will take.

Trying to make sense out of what bb has posted here is an exercise in futility........Just ask the rabbit.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

You left out the part about the mother ship coming to save the believers.........like you. Shouldn't you be presenting your case to the world, as opposed to only the members of this site? Why not tell your story to people qualified to understand it?

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Hey, I'm not ashamed to say this is getting well beyond what I can comprehend.

I'm with CJ - I think you're spinning your wheels trying to get your ideas into our thick heads - you need to address your theories with the scientific community, not us I'm afraid.

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Well.......there is a bit of a problem with that, isn't there.

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Well.......there is a bit of a problem with that, isn't there.

Joe

I see that cowpie in front of me, and I ain't stepping in that one CJ

I plan to spend one day on my upcoming trip trying to find BB's site #1. He's given me enough information that I have no excuse for not getting there.

It remains to be seen if I'll find anything there. I'm not sure what I'm even supposed to be looking for (he suggested that if I have to ask him that, then I won't know it when I see it), but I have no reason not to give it a try.

The worst that can happen is I'll enjoy the day hiking in the desert wilderness - well, that's not the worst thing that could happen I suppose, but I intend to be careful and not do anything stupid or TOO risky . Maybe I'll make Djui go first :P

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...? (Drifting WAY off topic)

Greetings Blindbowman and everyone,

WARNING this post is going to drift FAR off-topic, for those who would rather not wade through off-topic stuff please just skip ahead to the next post.

Blindbowman my friend you may well be right when you say that you might be wasting your time trying to explain your theories to us here - for some have lost confidence in your abilities/discoveries, some of us simply cannot comprehend what you are trying to explain. Like you, I too have had my moments of frustration in discussing/debating with our friends here and more than once took a post as some kind of personal affront - however I THINK that our friends here are only 'ribbing' you (as everyone) in a good-natured way, not intended to be a direct personal insult. I could be way off and totally wrong, perhaps one or more of our friends is actually taking pot-shots with the intent of insult, but if so that is that person's problem - so long as we keep a good sense of humor.

I thought that I had begun to understand your latest theory, but you have lost me again - and not because we disagree on every point either. For instance you are saying that the Earth has rotated end-over-end on at least one occasion, and I believe this might have happened; it would fit with the report found in Herodotus as the Egyptians told him:

So far in the story the Egyptians and the priests were they who made the report, declaring that from the first king down to this priest of Hephaistos who reigned last, there had been three hundred and forty-one generations of men, and that in them there had been the same number of chief-priests and of kings: but three hundred generations of men are equal to ten thousand years, for a hundred years is three generations of men; and in the one-and-forty generations which remain, those I mean which were added to the three hundred, there are one thousand three hundred and forty years. Thus in the period of eleven thousand three hundred and forty years they said that there had arisen no god in human form; nor even before that time or afterwards among the remaining kings who arose in Egypt, did they report that anything of that kind had come to pass. In this time they said that the sun had moved four times from his accustomed place of rising, and where he now sets he had thence twice had his rising, and in the place from whence he now rises he had twice had his setting;369 and in the meantime nothing in Egypt had been changed from its usual state, neither that which comes from the earth nor that which comes to them from the river nor that which concerns diseases or deaths.

(The Histories of Herodotus, book II p142)

A simple explanation of how it would appear to an observer in Egypt that the Sun had reversed course would be that the world had actually flipped end-over-end - of course there could be other explanations such as pure fiction on the part of the Egyptian or Herodotus himself. That it is thin evidence to support the idea of Earth rotating end-over-end I will grant, and of course the skeptic will instantly point to the idea of Earth flipping over causing massive oceans to wash over the continents etc but this sort of reaction might not occur if the flipping occurred at a speed that was not so fast as to cause such flooding, as mentioned earlier the powerful gravity of the Earth might prevent such actions IF the flip were over the course of hours or days etc.

Cactusjumper I do enjoy GOOD fiction, but have a strong dislike for poor fiction. I too think that our amigo Blindbowman is in fact working on a book, and might be simply "bouncing" various ideas off us here, if this is what he is doing I have no problem with it and have bounced ideas around here myself. It remains to be seen just what Blindbowman is writing, and I would not judge a person's writing (or intellect) based on their spelling skills - any publisher would insist on proof-reading before they will even read a submission anyway.

Cubfan I hope that you will let us know what you find, or DON'T find at BB's site #1. I cannot afford to make the trip to AZ (heck I could not afford it while I was still living in AZ for that matter) but remain curious about just what it was that he found that led to so many ideas and discussions. All our talk sure got me curious, almost curious enough to waste one last trip into the Superstitions, but other things took precedence. (Actually Mrs Oro and I did go and spend ten days there, but on a very different and un-related project so did not end up having time to investigate.)

Blindbowman you seem to have neglected to answer some of my questions, probably an oversight or perhaps you are tired of trying to explain things, but I still would like to know what it was that led you to think that what you have found could be the tomb of Montezuma? I have some pretty "far-fetched" theories of my own, so you can be assured that I will not "poke fun" if your clue was obtained via remote-viewing or shamanistic methods, just that I am curious what it was that said to you "tomb of Montezuma"? Thank you in advance,

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope that you find the treasures that you seek.
your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

"Examine what is said, not him who said it." Arab proverb

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Cubfan I hope that you will let us know what you find, or DON'T find at BB's site #1. I cannot afford to make the trip to AZ (heck I could not afford it while I was still living in AZ for that matter) but remain curious about just what it was that he found that led to so many ideas and discussions. All our talk sure got me curious, almost curious enough to waste one last trip into the Superstitions, but other things took precedence. (Actually Mrs Oro and I did go and spend ten days there, but on a very different and un-related project so did not end up having time to investigate.)

Oro - You can bet I'll make my best effort to see exactly what BB has found in this location - and I guarantee I will take photos - even if I don't see anything there at the time.

I did promise BB when he gave me some additional information that I would keep it private until/unless he didn't mind me sharing it. With that said, I'll first show BB what photos I took and probably ask him more questions when I get back - if he doesn't mind me sharing what I find or see (or don't see for that matter), I'll be more than happy to show you all.

No matter what happens, I expect to have a very good time, take alot of photos, experience some much needed solitude and "refreshing of my spirit," and hopefully gain an even further appreciation for the history that's occurred in that area.

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Cubfan Thank you, I appreciate that someone (an un-biased witness so to speak) is going to go out and field-check at least a part of what our friend Blindbowman has been saying. As you said, even if you find or see nothing, it is a beautiful place and worth a visit just for that. (Of course the enviro-nuts want "looking" to be the ONLY thing that anyone can ever do on the public lands and they are getting their way.)

Blindbowman thank you for your explanation and for summing it up. I don't agree that you are quite so alone in the world as you seem to feel that you are, you have friends and perhaps even some who have a bit of those abilities to 'see' beyond too. For that matter I would propose that almost every treasure hunter has a deep interest in history, and are getting much more "out of it" than financial rewards. If your ability to sense information is true, the only way that anyone can ever 'test' to find out if your own interpretation is correct is through field checking it. I would think that if I had your 'ability' then I would use it to find out many of the great mysteries of the past, as I tried to talk you into doing with the battle at Little Bighorn - so many un-answered questions that without a time machine only a person using 'remote viewing' or a similar shamanistic out-of-body search could ever provide any new information. There is no way to find out, for instance, whether Custer's men could see the arrival of Cpt Weir and his men at Weir point, which was my question that I hoped you might be able to find an answer to. Quite a few 'last stand' type of battles remain as mysteries like Thermopylae, the Alamo etc. There is a great deal of information that never made it into any history books.

So if you are now convinced that your site(s) are either the tomb of Montezuma or Chicomoztoc/Aztlan or both, may I ask what your view of the historical person Jacob Waltz is? Do you see him as fictional, as a tomb-robber, as a liar who never had any kind of mine or gold, as a thief who stole gold from others' gold mines and pretended he had a mine, as a murderer who killed Peraltas to steal their mine and then killed his own nephew in a fit of anger, as a determined and experienced gold prospector who searched for and found his own rich gold mine in the most un-promising mountain range in Arizona, or something else altogether? How does Jacob Waltz fit in with the tomb of Montezuma, Chicomoztoc, Aztlan, Atlantis etc?

You mentioned the references to an Amerindian legend in which Montezuma was buried in a mountain that had his image - were you aware that this legend referred to Montezuma Head and not the Superstitions? Arizona (and the whole of the southwest) has MANY legends attached to MANY different sites, sometimes people tend to lump them into one small area without realizing just how big the southwest really is. I could list some of the legends that have gotten MOVED into other places, but suffice to say that one of them is the two soldiers mine in the Superstitions - I won't post the exact site here as I hope to go to it myself one day, but this particular "legend" is based on a factual history and a gold mine located well outside the Superstitions. This is NOT the only legend that has gotten "mixed" into the stories of the Superstitions either! This sort of trans-locating the stories of other places into the Superstitions is something that less-than-honest treasure writers are guilty of, and I hold this against them. I would hope that you are NOT doing this for your own purposes, if for no other reason than it is "stealing" the history of Montezuma Head, which is a fascinating and mysterious place in its own right.

You know, Blindbowman, I could propose that I have located Aztlan right here in the Black Hills of South Dakota! The whole of the mountain range is in the shape of a human heart, it is a "holy place" among many Amerindian tribes, it was once surrounded by a huge inland sea (or rose above the dry sea bed, depends on which geologist you choose to read) there are petroglyphs and pictograms hidden all through these hills, it is rich in gold, it is an isolated and volcanic mountain range, and then there are the "seven caves of Chicomoztoc" - known today as:

Crystal Cave

Wind Cave

Jewel Cave

Stage Barn Cave

Black Hills Cavern

Rushmore Cave

Sitting Bull Crystal Cavern

(actually over 100 caves in all)

Most geologists say these Black Hills caves are among the oldest known on Earth. Then there is the Cosmos Mystery Area which seems to have strange gravitational and magnetic effects, and the equally odd "booming" sounds that occasionally echo through the mountains with no known cause - some historians believe the booming was a key reason why the Amerindians thought that the place was occupied by gods. Even mysterious and haunting Devil's Tower, famous for the "landing site" of the UFOs in "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" is a part of the Black Hills, and even has a legend of a great underground lake beneath it lined with gold. The Lakota and Cheyennes who fought the USA for possession of the place were not the people who possessed the hills in 1500 and earlier - so who is to say that the Black Hills was not the original homeland of Aztlan, complete with seven caves we can call Chicomoztoc? When you say that the Superstitions are in fact Aztlan and Montezuma is buried there, and the seven caves of Chicomoztoc, it will take solid evidence before the historians will recognize it.

Blindbowman you made reference to "the peace of your Indian blood" which struck me as odd - for I too can say that I have Indian blood (just look up "Roy Decker" among the Cherokees in the past, I am named for a grandfather and there have been several over the centuries. I don't announce it much as I see some folks make a lot of fuss over their ancestry.)... but we know the Amerindians were a warlike race, with almost constant warfare going on over most of the continent. Does your Indian blood give you a peaceful feeling? Does your non-Indian heritage give you a feeling of un-rest? Just curious amigo...

Good luck and good hunting Blindbowman and everyone, I hope that you find the treasures that you seek.
your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Old Dog]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

 

[Springfield]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

You left out the part about the mother ship coming to save the believers.........like you. Shouldn't you be presenting your case to the world, as opposed to only the members of this site? Why not tell your story to people qualified to understand it?

Joe Ribaudo

He's playing the forum like a cheap banjo and obviously succeeding.

 

[BILL96]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Everyone
As many times as BB has threatend to leave, he can't. He needs us we are his captive audience. He can say or claim anything he wants and he will get a responce. Even a negative responce is good because it is a responce and he still has his audience. Unfortunately I have an office job now and I spend most my days in front of this computer and I must admit that I am part of his audience and I come to work everyday and read everything he posts because most of it is so far from any sense of reality that it does make me laugh and then I can start my day. I honestly believe tha BB has serious problems and without a doubt he is not a normal person (whatever that is) and I still see him in the day room of that institution using a computer. No I don't believe that he has found anything in the superstitions except the delusions in his head. The internet is a great thing, it allows a person to stand on a worldwide stage and say or claim anything they want without having to offer any sort of proof of their claims and still to remain completely anonymous. This forum has given him the captive audience that he needs. He could never stand on a public stage at a university and make these same claims because he would have to offer proof, which he can't and on this form he doesn't have to. I don't think any rational person would spend so much time posting as he does to such a skeptical audience, if he was half as smart as he thinks he is he would not waste his time on us. I know others feel the same as I do but things are a little slow around here this morning so I thought I would rant just a little bit. Before I was forced into my current situation I spent many days and nights in that wonderful Arizona desert, and I know it very well and look forward to returning.
So BB lets get on with your next claim and disertation, like I said things are a little slow aroud here this morning and I am ready whenever you are.

Bill

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

What he said............

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Greetings everyone,

Blindbowman you wax poetic in your description of what you perceive the Amerindian past and reality to be. Perhaps that is reality for you. In my own research of the history of the Amerindian tribes, I found not that they were all so peace-loving and in touch with Mother Earth, but every bit as warlike and violent as those "evil whites". You even mentioned about your Mohawk forbears eating the hearts of their enemies who trespassed in their valleys - now how "peaceful" do you claim that to be? The Mohawks fought a war with the Susquehannocks for over a century, virtually exterminating them. To try to blame all the Amerindian violence against Amerindians, on the "whites" somehow "forcing" them into it is to buy into the modern Hollywood propoganda that is twisting and distorting the truth. If you have truly sensed the Aztecs in the Superstitions, did you sense the constant and massive warfare perpetrated by those same Aztecs against virtually ALL of their neighbors? Did you sense the mass human sacrifice of tens of thousands of people in their pagan temples? You make no mention of these. Remember the warfare of the Aztecs was going on LONG before any Europeans arrived.

I also get the impression that you have not investigated the history of your "white" blood either. For those "white" ancestors are very much the same as the "red" and I am not kidding - read the ancient Roman historian Tacitus' description of "Germania" and the Germanic TRIBES who include the ancestors of the Anglos, Saxons, Danes, Jutes, Swedes, Franks, Goths etc. If you still think there is a great deal of difference between the "whites" and the "reds" after reading Tacitus, I hope you can point them out. http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/tacitus1.html

Well enough of my own rant. Blindbowman there seems to be patterns in your posts. Specifically when someone does not agree with your own theory, you launch into the world of the Shaman and the peace of the Red man's blood, similar in some ways to the Australian Aborigines "Dreamtime". Perhaps this is just your own reaction to what you see as 'negativity' I don't know. Some of us just don't understand when you do this, or why.

It has been entertaining, and I have found myself doing a lot of fact-checking so it has also been useful. I have to admit that I remain un-convinced that what Blindbowman has found is the tomb of Montezuma, but I could be wrong or perhaps it is all just a game. Guess I will see what else is on T-net a while...
Oroblanco

 

[Peerless67]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

I am confused again

QUOTE BB: "sorry i dont beleive in other beings visting earth in space ships ,, UFO's are only unidentified
flying objects to me ,,,..."




QUOTE BB: "there is one man that may try to under stand my gifts , he is from princeton a Robrt Jahn phd , he made a statement about a being that could time wrap to other planets and back with the blink of eye ... that other beings could have come from far away stars ... people that could step free of their bodys and become the matter arond them and go anywhere and everywhere they will to go ..."


What am I missing? anyone?