FBI raid

[cudamark]

I find the part "cultural value beyond measure" amusing. What value does it have if it's buried and unknown to exist? The overreaction to digging artifacts arbitrarily deemed to be off limits is astonishing. I bet if an American Indian individual or tribe wanted to dig up their ancestors artifacts, there would be no problem at all. Are they banned from digging non-American Indian artifacts? Seems like a one way street to me....

 

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[diggummup]

Unless the guy has human body parts (bones) in his house then I don't see how the Feds can prove anything was collected illegally. Lest we forget, there was a time in the not so distant past in this once great country of ours, when we didn't have all these crazy ass laws regarding the collection of artifacts. That's what happens when you give them an inch... it turns into a country mile.

 

[jeff of pa]

I find the part "cultural value beyond measure" amusing. What value does it have if it's buried and unknown to exist? The overreaction to digging artifacts arbitrarily deemed to be off limits is astonishing. I bet if an American Indian individual or tribe wanted to dig up their ancestors artifacts, there would be no problem at all. Are they banned from digging non-American Indian artifacts? Seems like a one way street to me....

Yes Seriously ! What makes some people think they own everything
lost or Hidden in the ground, just because one of their relatives May or may not have had anything to do with it.

Show Me a Bill of sale, insurance claim form , Will with it mentioned,
Or a photo of it when it was in use,
& I'll return it to it's owner as soon as you dig them up ! and have them ask me for it.

Unless the guy has human body parts (bones) in his house then I don't see how the Feds can prove anything was collected illegally. Lest we forget, there was a time in the not so distant past in this once great country of ours, when we didn't have all these crazy ass laws regarding the collection of artifacts. That's what happens when you give them an inch... it turns into a country mile.

Correct ! Even with the Human bones, He is 91
If he was in his Teens or 20's when he acquired them,
He may have been doing it Legally. And if the laws came later
these items may still be Grand-fathered.
Since I don't have copies of the Laws, Nor the legal Expertise to Translate them If I did.
I'll hold back comment on them.
I would Guess a Civil War Sword or other Relic dug on the Battlefield in Gettysburg
in 1930 is not illegal to own.
nor a Skull with an Arrow in it, If purchased from a Museum, or Legal Relic Auction in the 30's give or take a decade

 

[Jeremy S]

My original post was meant as a joke! Someone earlier made the statement! And I was joking about it!

I didn't mean to sound as if I was accusing someone on this forum of doing that, which I wasn't. But sadly many years ago our government had to pass laws to protect burial grounds and archaeological sites from looters. The looters are no different from the guys who leave garbage our favorite fishing spots, poach deer, or detect on property without permission. All it takes is a few bad apples to ruin it for the rest.

Hopefully the old man has good legal representation and maybe even written records of the origin of his artifacts.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

I'm only going to say this Once.

There will be No more Warnings in This on Any other posts .

IF I Read accusations of Members Digging Graves
IF I read accusations that I Interpret as accusations, even Vague ones.
your posts will be deleted.



Our Members Do NOT Dig Graves.
If you see a Rather nice Artifact,
Don't Get Jealous & Make accusations.
Congratulate them or Move on .

and yes that includes accusations of
digging in off limit parks or private property without permission.

If you don't have Video of them doing it,
& Documents. to prove the video is of the member digging
on the wrong side of an official sign that Warns the site is off limits.
it didn't happen !

NO ACCUSATIONS !!!

This comment is NOT Open to Discussion

Totally agree and support 100%






American by birth, Patriot by choice.

I would rather die standing on my two feet defending our Constitution than live a lifetime on my knees......

 

[Helix]

I have heard stories from old timers "who are long gone today" that in the 1920's and 30's tons and tons of items came from construction sites. In fact that was a major side business for lots of companies. Were the out to dig graves NO.. I am willing to bet most of the controversial items out there were dug way back when. It was perfectly legal and excepted to collect anything. I have several Native American burial site down the road from me that were dug in the 1930's. People were digging up mounds all over the country at that time. In my life time I have never heard of any diggings of mounds like that on that large a scale. So were are all these out breaks "since laws were passed" of people digging like this? Now today excavating companies are afraid to death of finding and recognizing any type of artifact because of the fear of jobs being shut down. Unlike the past when it was ok and they actually would keep and eye out for the stuff and collected everything if possible knowing it had value monetary or cultural.

 

[diggummup]

And why is the FBI involved anyway?

 

[Helix]

What about the people that have had artifacts past down over the years? There is no way to prove it! What about gathering items from your own land? And Helix I have heard of construction site covering or removing things. So that they could move forward without delay! My great grandfather and grandfather plowed by horse! They had great collections! I wouldn't try to guess or might not even want to know who has them today!

Yeah I worked in residential housing construction before it tanked and your exactly right. Around me 90% percent of the time if any bones or any thing along those lines were discovered they ignored it and kept working for fear of the job being shut down. So then anything of importance would of been destroyed or lost for ever. I mean look if every time a heavy equipment operator stopped jumped off his machine to look at every single rock and stick to make sure its not a bone or something nothing would ever get done.

 

[Helix]

Yep, I would like to name an area where this has happened but I won't! It's sad, because so much has been lost!A college even tried to do controlled digs there, but there was so much missed! The fbi will never go to some of the big construction areas and stop progress!!Hell, half of the east coast would have never been developed!!This guy actually protected things in a way!!Kinda...We will see how it pans out hopefully!

Just to be clear I'm not saying around me companies were just finding graves and blatantly destroying them. I never heard of graves being found in my area during my time in the trades. Large housing developments around me were built on old farms and what did a farmer do when livestock died, they buried them. Figure a farm that existed for 150 years. Now in that 150 years time thousands of farm animals lived and died at any given farm they had to be buried some were. Again nothing would of ever been developed if every speck of bone was reported. Its just not realistic. I guess no one has to worry about it anymore because not much development is being done anymore. LOL!

 

[roadrunner]

Well I worked in south Dakota for a while doing construction on some hospitals, and large commercial buildings.
It was an order from the sups and bosses that if a bone,or possible artifact was found, to throw it in the ditch, and keep our mouths shut if we wanted to keep working and have a paycheck.
That was in the 80's.

 

[rockheadhunter421]

Well I worked in south Dakota for a while doing construction on some hospitals, and large commercial buildings.
It was an order from the sups and bosses that if a bone,or possible artifact was found, to throw it in the ditch, and keep our mouths shut if we wanted to keep working and have a paycheck.
That was in the 80's.

You could potentially pocket an piece of history and keep on a working. As long as you keep your mouth closed no one would ever know. Some great pieces of history still may have never met a modern person's hands. Same as discovering a dinosaur skeleton. That evidence/knowledge may have never made it to a museum for enthusiasts to see. Natural history is a very important part of ancient North America and a story of the past is conceived for us. I'm a collector myself and I take every aspect of protecting one's land, following the laws and legally respecting this nature. If I am asked to do something sketchy, I will be in no part of it.

 

[roadrunner]

Sure, arrowhead,spear head, ya, but not much bigger.
Everybody used to be able to and still pick up arrow heads.
They pick them up to this day. And we are allowed to.
I think this guy has to many bones, and possible artifacts from over seas.

 

[rockheadhunter421]

Sure, arrowhead,spear head, ya, but not much bigger.
Everybody used to be able to and still pick up arrow heads.
They pick them up to this day. And we are allowed to.
I think this guy has to many bones, and possible artifacts from over seas.

That is basically how I find a good quantity arrowheads. In clear-cuts or areas just on the outskirts of big cities where more land developments are being done. I have been reading this thread and I think what you said is interesting so I had to comment. Collecting bones and grave goods isn't the hobby I'm into. I'm just a collector of natural history and I enjoy sharing my collection with others.

 

[roadrunner]

Well, I think I read that he had a skull with an arrow head in it.
Now what if that came from bighorn, what if it was Custer, or one of the soldiers there.

I saw on a show,it was on Tv though, that some police some where came into an auction, and siezed a sword,small one,that possibly from Russia, Prussia, I forget.
But they seized it to check to see if it was stolen, or what ever.
It would not be a good idea to have any skeletons in any closet any where.
But,good try at a closet joke.

Plus, I think the FBI, the Artifact police, or whom ever start raiding every Good will, pawn shop, and trinket shop where we can buy these items all day long,some times 7 days a week.
1/2 price on Saturdays. Check Goodwill some time.

 

[roadrunner]

That is basically how I find a good quantity arrowheads. In clear-cuts or areas just on the outskirts of big cities where more land developments are being done. I have been reading this thread and I think what you said is interesting so I had to comment. Collecting bones and grave goods isn't the hobby I'm into. I'm just a collector of natural history and I enjoy sharing my collection with others.

I know a guy around my area that hunts anything where construction is being done just for that reason.
Another way to look for gold nuggets is to go searching around new dozer cuts. Or where a lot of earth is being moved.
Your smart letting some one else do all the work for you.
Just go back and pick up the riches.

 

[ivan salis]

always remember the "police" can lie to you to entrap you into confessing or make you think that your "in the clear" to talk freely * -- when they arrest you or want to question you about ANYTHING -- your first words should be "I want a lawyer , now." because while they can lie to you , no problem--- if you knowingly lie to them or "SCREW UP" AND get twisted up on your "facts" after hours of non stop "questioning" -- you CAN AND WILL be charged with a crime if you "lie" to them .

I CAN'T RECALL * IS A GREAT ANSWER ALWAYS (politicans love to say that) --because no one can "prove" what you can or can not "remember" , or what you "know".(just because you took "math classes" doesn't mean that you "remember" all that algebra crap from high school --now does it?)

 

[diggummup]

Figured i'd mention that this guy's collection was featured over 14 years ago in the Indiana Star. Rush County home is full of collectibles from years of missionary work around the globe So why now? All of a sudden? With no proof of ANY wrong doing? Welcome to Amerika!

[h=1]Rush County home is full of collectibles from years of missionary work around the globe[/h]Jerry Graff, The Star archiveThis story originally published in The Indianapolis Star Saturday, Sept. 19, 1998. On Wednesday, April 2, 2014, the FBI removed thousands of artifacts from the Rush County property.

 

[Helix]

Figured i'd mention that this guy's collection was featured over 14 years ago in the Indiana Star. Rush County home is full of collectibles from years of missionary work around the globe So why now? All of a sudden? With no proof of ANY wrong doing? Welcome to Amerika!

Rush County home is full of collectibles from years of missionary work around the globe

Jerry Graff, The Star archiveThis story originally published in The Indianapolis Star Saturday, Sept. 19, 1998. On Wednesday, April 2, 2014, the FBI removed thousands of artifacts from the Rush County property.

I have asked myself that same question. The best answer I can come up with lies in the last paragraph in the article titled "The oddly aggressive enforcement of cultural artifacts laws" on page three of this post.

 

[diggummup]

I have asked myself that same question. The best answer I can come up with lies in the last paragraph in the article titled "The oddly aggressive enforcement of cultural artifacts laws" on page thee of this post.

You'd think the grandfather clause would come into play. I would be willing to bet that the artifacts in question were obtained legally, before any of these bs laws were put into place.


If the gub wants you, they will come after you. No matter what legal right to privacy you think you have. This is just another example of many. Baa! Baa!

 

[gollum]

FISHSTICK:

You are absolutely wrong. This guy never called anybody.

Authorities descended on the house after several months of investigation. Jones said an art crimes expert at the FBI’s Indianapolis office had received information that Miller was hoarding items that “needed re-repatriation.”

Diggummup:

Look at the video of the guys collection. A BUNCH of skulls and at least one complete skeleton.

Indiana Jones? FBI finds thousands of artifacts in 91-year-old's home - latimes.com