DOC NOSS-Victorio Peak OR The Caballo Mountains

[markmar]

No, he wasn't satisfied with only one. Read the book...

No need to read a book to learn about the human nature . Maybe he found few rabbit holes .

 

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[UncleMatt]

Like I said, I have been mislead on VP more by people guessing than anything else...

 

[Not Peralta]

Everyone may get a good laugh out of what I am fixing to say, but this is experience talking. If you are in or around the Caballo's treasure hunting or prospecting, you will soon learn
that one of your best friends is going to be a 16ft aluminum extension ladder, you will need it for above and below uses, no matter how clever you are , nothing else will work, don't bother taking one
in with you, after you have been in there for awhile you will find were others have already stashed theres, np

 

[UncleMatt]

That was hilarious! And probably very good advice! lol

 

[sdcfia]

Everyone may get a good laugh out of what I am fixing to say, but this is experience talking. If you are in or around the Caballo's treasure hunting or prospecting, you will soon learn
that one of your best friends is going to be a 16ft aluminum extension ladder, you will need it for above and below uses, no matter how clever you are , nothing else will work, don't bother taking one
in with you, after you have been in there for awhile you will find were others have already stashed theres, np

They're not laughing on Mt. Everest.

 

[UncleMatt]

I finished the second book, and as much as I am enjoying the reading, they really do need to be better organized and edited. Often its hard to stay on track as the author jumps around from point to point, and topic to topic.

 

[sdcfia]

I’ve finished Gold House Book 1 and will offer a few comments. First, as Mike (gollum) has stated several times, this is a “must have” book for anyone interested in the Victorio Peak story. I have three others, Curse of the San Andes, by Henry James, 100 Tons of Gold, by David Chandler and Treasure of Victorio Peak, by Phil Koury. All offer different information and different perspectives, but Gold House is the “go to” reference, no doubt. I caution that the book is presented from the Noss family point of view, with all statements and quoted documents clearly interpreted to benefit their vested interests. The objective reader can judge for himself - this material can be interpreted in more than one way. Following are my takes on various aspects.

Douthit/Caballos. Willie Douthit was likely in the middle of a large gold/artifact recovery somewhere in the Caballo Mountains, the details of which are murky and may never be fully revealed. Doc Noss was in some way also a part of it, possibly intimidating Douthit into a partnership and possibly murdering others along the way. I suspect that Noss removed, say, a couple hundred bars of gold and a number of historical artifacts from Willie's cave. It’s my impression that Noss likely relocated the bullion to the Hembrillo Basin vicinity and used the artifacts and some of the gold bars to stage a treasure discovery at Victorio Peak. I think he likely did this to deflect attention away from the Caballo cache to protect the location of the remaining gold bullion there, and also perhaps to keep hidden evidence of murder in the cave that might be traced back to him.

Doc’s gold. There can be little doubt that Noss was in possession of many bars of gold - that which was recovered from the Caballos, in my opinion. Doc always claimed that the bullion was removed from Victorio Peak, but he allowed nobody else into the treasure room, making himself the only witness to its existence. Benny Samaniego and Seraphin Sedillo both claimed to have also been in the Victorio treasure vaults in the early going, but Benny first stated he was in the Caballos, and Sedillo came off as untrustworthy, even from the Noss’s perspective. These two are questionable witnesses, perhaps coached by Noss to help bolster his claims.

The book presents numerous statements from a variety of people in several locations that Doc Noss sold or tried to sell bullion, was seen in the possession of gold bars, was assisted moving gold bars, and even had gold bars stolen from him during the years he was active at Victorio Peak. Even Charley Ryan, the man who would kill Noss, had himself seen 51 gold bars - part of the 110 bars he and Doc were planning to smuggle to a Mexican buyer. When Noss reneged on that deal, Ryan killed him. The point is, maybe a total of a couple hundred gold bars were collectively seen over a ten year period by a substantial number of people, and those bars were seen either in Noss’s possession, or being hidden by him at various locations in the desert surrounding Victorio Peak. None were seen inside Victorio Peak.

The spy. Much is made of the letters and notes written by Merle Horzmann, as well they should be. Horzmann talked herself into the inner workings of the Noss family’s activities when she became secretary of the Noss's mining company that was formed to claim Victorio Peak and attempt to rectify the “accident” that earlier blocked the entrance to the alleged treasure vaults therein. During these years, Horzmann was playing both ends against the middle. On one hand, as a company officer she finagled herself into a share of the treasure itself, if recovered - a share potentially worth millions of dollars to her personally. On the other hand, she admits being a mole for various government and law enforcement agencies, gathering whatever evidence she could in order to be used to prosecute Noss for a variety of crimes, including at first Gold Act violations, and also murder in the Caballo Mountains. It’s clear from Horzmann’s documents that early in the Victorio Peak days, the FBI and the Secret Service (and Horzmann herself) believed Noss’s claims about a treasure trove in the peak - after all, there was growing evidence that Doc had been trying to sell gold bullion to a number of parties, including the US Mint in Denver. The Noss group was always fearful that the government planned to seize the treasure when located, but Horzmann was hopeful that the company would be able to keep a fair share of the treasure for themselves, especially her share. As the years passed, however, belief in the treasure’s existence faded considerably and the government’s focus shifted to prosecuting Noss for a variety of crimes centered on investment fraud. Horzmann too became cynical about the treasure and seemed more interested in calling in favors as a spy rather than collecting here share of the gold. She clearly had doubts there was any treasure.

Doc Noss.​ Noss's character was constantly defended in the book - his crimes and indiscretions excused due to stress, paranoia and persecution. While those may be explanations of why he did what he did, they aren't excuses and they don't deny that he was guilty of those crimes and indiscretions. Noss was clearly a devious and troubled soul. He was arrested numerous times - maybe dozens - for assault with a deadly weapon, impersonating law officers, assaulting police officers, possession of stolen property, drunk and disorderly conduct, brawling, etc. He deserted his wife and family for another woman. He well could have been involved in multiple murders. He was known to be lie or give misleading information to all kinds of people in all kinds of situations. I don't blame him for the things he did, but I do contend that the proof is overwhelming that he was not a person to be trusted. Or believed.

The Victorio Peak years. The book’s writer views this lengthy period of the 1940s decade as a planned conspiracy by the government to seize the treasure at Victorio Peak, which might well have been the case if any treasure had been located. However, the fact remains that after about twelve years of apparent charades orchestrated by Noss, there was no proof that such a hoard actually existed. The only gold seen was that which was hidden in a number of locations outside the mountain in the surrounding hills. These couple hundred gold bars were the logical spoils from Willie Douthit’s cave in the Caballos, moved to the Hembrillo Basin by Noss and used as discovery props at Victorio Peak originally, and then sold off a little at a time to raise money over the years. In 1949, 110 of these bars were to be sold by Ryan for Noss, but Doc thought he was going to be cheated, so he hid the gold in different places, reneged on the deal, and Ryan killed him for it. By this time, Noss had lost control of Victorio Peak and was working as Ryan’s employee. The 110 bars may have been the last of Noss’s bullion.

Ryan allegedly bought off the judge at his murder trial, promising him a quantity of gold bars from the Mexico deal that fell through. Then, after being acquitted, Ryan stiffed the judge by not paying off, ironically because he didn’t know where Noss had relocated the gold - the reason he killed him in the first place. Remember the Jack Nicholson movie line? “Forget it Jake. It’s Chinatown.” Well, in this case, it’s New Mexico. Ryan went home to Texas and never came back.

Books 2 and 3 in the Gold House trilogy deal with military and political intrigues, crimes and dirty tricks centering on alleged gold recovery at Victorio Peak years after Doc Noss’s death. I don’t intend to read these because if the military and government is involved, I don’t believe anything that is available to the public, even through FOIA. Whatever carefully crafted government scams that went down using the Victorio Peak venue is not what I’m interested in. The question of this thread is “Caballos or Victorio Peak?” If proof of a treasure vault in Victorio Peak surfaces, I’ll reconsider, but until then, I say, “Caballos.”

 

[UncleMatt]

One thing I found very interesting in book two was a transcript of a conversation between Drolte (of Drolte's Hole fame) & a guy named Norvell. Drolte is speaking of proving the gold is in VP to Norvell when they plan to visit the site, and then states "On down in the Organs, in Dona Ana County, there is a huge one down there". Norvell asks "Is that the largest?", and Drolte responds "That is the largest".

What is to be made of this? Roger Snow has posted here and on other sites about many sites in the Organs that were emptied out and dynamited to bits. Were any of those "the big one" Drolte is referring to? Does/did "the big one" even exist, and how did Drolte learn about it if it did?

Is "the big one" shown on Noss's map?

 

[UncleMatt]

And I laughed when I saw on "location 5500" on the Kindle version that they had the same theory about the origin of the skeletons that I came up with earlier in this thread. That the people who stored the gold in VP had "chained them to posts", and failed to return due to a hostile indian attack. This is also one of the few places I saw the specific term "chained to posts" used to describe the skeletons.

 

[gollum]

I’ve finished Gold House Book 1 and will offer a few comments. First, as Mike (gollum) has stated several times, this is a “must have” book for anyone interested in the Victorio Peak story. I have three others, Curse of the San Andes, by Henry James, 100 Tons of Gold, by David Chandler and Treasure of Victorio Peak, by Phil Koury. All offer different information and different perspectives, but Gold House is the “go to” reference, no doubt. I caution that the book is presented from the Noss family point of view, with all statements and quoted documents clearly interpreted to benefit their vested interests. The objective reader can judge for himself - this material can be interpreted in more than one way. Following are my takes on various aspects.

Douthit/Caballos. Willie Douthit was likely in the middle of a large gold/artifact recovery somewhere in the Caballo Mountains, the details of which are murky and may never be fully revealed. Doc Noss was in some way also a part of it, possibly intimidating Douthit into a partnership and possibly murdering others along the way. I suspect that Noss removed, say, a couple hundred bars of gold and a number of historical artifacts from Willie's cave. It’s my impression that Noss likely relocated the bullion to the Hembrillo Basin vicinity and used the artifacts and some of the gold bars to stage a treasure discovery at Victorio Peak. I think he likely did this to deflect attention away from the Caballo cache to protect the location of the remaining gold bullion there, and also perhaps to keep hidden evidence of murder in the cave that might be traced back to him.

Doc’s gold. There can be little doubt that Noss was in possession of many bars of gold - that which was recovered from the Caballos, in my opinion. Doc always claimed that the bullion was removed from Victorio Peak, but he allowed nobody else into the treasure room, making himself the only witness to its existence. Benny Samaniego and Seraphin Sedillo both claimed to have also been in the Victorio treasure vaults in the early going, but Benny first stated he was in the Caballos, and Sedillo came off as untrustworthy, even from the Noss’s perspective. These two are questionable witnesses, perhaps coached by Noss to help bolster his claims.

The book presents numerous statements from a variety of people in several locations that Doc Noss sold or tried to sell bullion, was seen in the possession of gold bars, was assisted moving gold bars, and even had gold bars stolen from him during the years he was active at Victorio Peak. Even Charley Ryan, the man who would kill Noss, had himself seen 51 gold bars - part of the 110 bars he and Doc were planning to smuggle to a Mexican buyer. When Noss reneged on that deal, Ryan killed him. The point is, maybe a total of a couple hundred gold bars were collectively seen over a ten year period by a substantial number of people, and those bars were seen either in Noss’s possession, or being hidden by him at various locations in the desert surrounding Victorio Peak. None were seen inside Victorio Peak.

The spy. Much is made of the letters and notes written by Merle Horzmann, as well they should be. Horzmann talked herself into the inner workings of the Noss family’s activities when she became secretary of the Noss's mining company that was formed to claim Victorio Peak and attempt to rectify the “accident” that earlier blocked the entrance to the alleged treasure vaults therein. During these years, Horzmann was playing both ends against the middle. On one hand, as a company officer she finagled herself into a share of the treasure itself, if recovered - a share potentially worth millions of dollars to her personally. On the other hand, she admits being a mole for various government and law enforcement agencies, gathering whatever evidence she could in order to be used to prosecute Noss for a variety of crimes, including at first Gold Act violations, and also murder in the Caballo Mountains. It’s clear from Horzmann’s documents that early in the Victorio Peak days, the FBI and the Secret Service (and Horzmann herself) believed Noss’s claims about a treasure trove in the peak - after all, there was growing evidence that Doc had been trying to sell gold bullion to a number of parties, including the US Mint in Denver. The Noss group was always fearful that the government planned to seize the treasure when located, but Horzmann was hopeful that the company would be able to keep a fair share of the treasure for themselves, especially her share. As the years passed, however, belief in the treasure’s existence faded considerably and the government’s focus shifted to prosecuting Noss for a variety of crimes centered on investment fraud. Horzmann too became cynical about the treasure and seemed more interested in calling in favors as a spy rather than collecting here share of the gold. She clearly had doubts there was any treasure.

Doc Noss.​ Noss's character was constantly defended in the book - his crimes and indiscretions excused due to stress, paranoia and persecution. While those may be explanations of why he did what he did, they aren't excuses and they don't deny that he was guilty of those crimes and indiscretions. Noss was clearly a devious and troubled soul. He was arrested numerous times - maybe dozens - for assault with a deadly weapon, impersonating law officers, assaulting police officers, possession of stolen property, drunk and disorderly conduct, brawling, etc. He deserted his wife and family for another woman. He well could have been involved in multiple murders. He was known to be lie or give misleading information to all kinds of people in all kinds of situations. I don't blame him for the things he did, but I do contend that the proof is overwhelming that he was not a person to be trusted. Or believed.

The Victorio Peak years. The book’s writer views this lengthy period of the 1940s decade as a planned conspiracy by the government to seize the treasure at Victorio Peak, which might well have been the case if any treasure had been located. However, the fact remains that after about twelve years of apparent charades orchestrated by Noss, there was no proof that such a hoard actually existed. The only gold seen was that which was hidden in a number of locations outside the mountain in the surrounding hills. These couple hundred gold bars were the logical spoils from Willie Douthit’s cave in the Caballos, moved to the Hembrillo Basin by Noss and used as discovery props at Victorio Peak originally, and then sold off a little at a time to raise money over the years. In 1949, 110 of these bars were to be sold by Ryan for Noss, but Doc thought he was going to be cheated, so he hid the gold in different places, reneged on the deal, and Ryan killed him for it. By this time, Noss had lost control of Victorio Peak and was working as Ryan’s employee. The 110 bars may have been the last of Noss’s bullion.

Ryan allegedly bought off the judge at his murder trial, promising him a quantity of gold bars from the Mexico deal that fell through. Then, after being acquitted, Ryan stiffed the judge by not paying off, ironically because he didn’t know where Noss had relocated the gold - the reason he killed him in the first place. Remember the Jack Nicholson movie line? “Forget it Jake. It’s Chinatown.” Well, in this case, it’s New Mexico. Ryan went home to Texas and never came back.

Books 2 and 3 in the Gold House trilogy deal with military and political intrigues, crimes and dirty tricks centering on alleged gold recovery at Victorio Peak years after Doc Noss’s death. I don’t intend to read these because if the military and government is involved, I don’t believe anything that is available to the public, even through FOIA. Whatever carefully crafted government scams that went down using the Victorio Peak venue is not what I’m interested in. The question of this thread is “Caballos or Victorio Peak?” If proof of a treasure vault in Victorio Peak surfaces, I’ll reconsider, but until then, I say, “Caballos.”

SDCFIA,


I agree with the possibility of your theory. Oh how I wish that someone had gotten a REAL down and dirty interview with Willie before he died. Maybe that happened, and the person is sitting on the information.


Merle Horzman is a joke. She was never REALLY part of any government conspiracy, as much as she wanted to be. What it looks like is that Horzman and her husband were good friends with the Loriuses (that were murdered along with the Heberers). She joined up with the Noss' after that. She wrote many letters to the State Police at the time trying to implicate Doc in the Lorius/Heberer Murders. She absolutely hated Doc. The author interviewed people in the NM State Police that used to get letters from Horzman during the Lorius/Heberer Investigation. She tried tying Doc in with the "Guerrilla Gang" that supposedly included Doc, Willie, and Buster. Turns out, Doc, Willie, nor Buster had anything to do with the murders. Willie's Cave may have played a part though. The state police said they didn't believe her. I believe that when he friends (the Lorius') were murdered, she took it upon herself to play investigator.


Maybe she was a crank,........................... but then again, who knows what she may have overheard while working for the Noss'?


Mike

 

[UncleMatt]

They have forensic tests they can perform on soil to see if there is any sign of human remains decaying on or in it. Maybe someone should run a test on the ground level Ward-Douthit stache cave in Hackberry Draw...

 

[sdcfia]

SDCFIA,


I agree with the possibility of your theory. Oh how I wish that someone had gotten a REAL down and dirty interview with Willie before he died. Maybe that happened, and the person is sitting on the information.


Merle Horzman is a joke. She was never REALLY part of any government conspiracy, as much as she wanted to be. What it looks like is that Horzman and her husband were good friends with the Loriuses (that were murdered along with the Heberers). She joined up with the Noss' after that. She wrote many letters to the State Police at the time trying to implicate Doc in the Lorius/Heberer Murders. She absolutely hated Doc. The author interviewed people in the NM State Police that used to get letters from Horzman during the Lorius/Heberer Investigation. She tried tying Doc in with the "Guerrilla Gang" that supposedly included Doc, Willie, and Buster. Turns out, Doc, Willie, nor Buster had anything to do with the murders. Willie's Cave may have played a part though. The state police said they didn't believe her. I believe that when he friends (the Lorius') were murdered, she took it upon herself to play investigator.


Maybe she was a crank,........................... but then again, who knows what she may have overheard while working for the Noss'?


Mike

Yes, Willie seemed pretty well played out by the time of that interview. It would have been extremely interesting to have heard his complete Caballo story - he could have cleared his conscience and set a lot of stories straight. I am very curious about the "Guerrilla Gang" myself - does anyone have any info on them?

 

[sdcfia]

Here's an interesting post from another forum. I've had doubts about this poster in the past, and don't necessarily endorse this post, but you never know. It is true that Ryan and Noss were both Masons. I don't know about the judge and jury in Ryan's trial.

"In his original story, Doc Noss claimed that he had "accidently" found a covered opening near the top of Victorio Peak which, after uncovering said hole, lead him down through the bowels of this mountain and into a huge cavern which had three rooms. One room had gold bars stacked like cordwood, the second room had silver stacked in the same fashion, and the third room was the "Priest" room, where Doc found solid gold crowns which were studded with precious and semi-precious stones. Also found were chests of coins, swords, suits of armor, etc.

Back in 1939, when Doc made his discovery, it was illegal to sell or possess gold as a civilian. Nonetheless, Doc began to bring gold bars and crowns of gold out of the mountain and stash them in other, easier to get to, places.

And this pretty much ends the information about Doc and his fabulous treasure room, at least that's all that was said about it in the press.

About four years ago, I had the chance to chat over the phone with a man by the name of John Clarence. John had an interesting story to tell me that went much, much deeper into the Doc Noss story than any person. It wasn't long before I traveled to John's house and spent a couple of days with him, the whole time being filled with information about Doc that totally blew me away!! John was almost finished with a third book that he was writing about Doc, a triliogy, if you will, about the vast gold rooms within the Caballo Mountains of New Mexico and, of course, about Doc Noss.

John had information that Doc's wife Ova (Ova passed away in the 1970's) had inherited from Doc when he was shot and killed in 1949. When Ova passed, this information flowed to Ova's daughter, who in turn gave it to John Clarence. This information was both verbal as well as on paper.

I won't go into all of the details, but here are the highlights of the highlights:

John told me about the fact that Victorio Peak was NOT the only treasure room that Doc was getting into, that Doc was going into at least three other places besides Victorio to retrieve treasure. This sent up the huge red=flag to me, and I told John that Doc wasn't just a lucky treasure hunter....he was a Sentinel. There is no way in hell that a person can be "lucky" to find just one treasure room unlees he knows the coded symbol system...but to find THREE or MORE of these rooms is a dead give-away that this is a Sentinel. Again, Sentinels are chosen to protect the rooms...NOT to steal from them. But that's exactly what Doc was doing.....and this is the worst of fears for the Masons....that your chosen Sentinel is ripping off the treasure rooms(s) that he was chosen to protect.

Sometime before Doc was killed, he had come home one night to find that Ova had steak and potaotoes on the supper table, and this really caught Doc off-guard. He asked Babe where she got the money for the food, in which she replied that she had sold some of the gold (an artifact?) in town. And, (if I remember the story correctly) Ova had taken one of the solid gold, jewel encrusted, crowns into a jeweler to see what it was worth. Doc immediatley blew his top. He told Ova that this was a very stupid move, and he then proceeded to gather EVERYTHING he had in his home that pertained to gold and arifacts that he had taken from Victorio Peak and the other sites. This included paper maps to the room(s), artifacts of gold and silver, etc..
As he was running through the house, Doc was yelling about how "if they catch me with this stuff they'll kill me." No doubt Doc was talking about the Masons. Anyway, Doc took these things out into the yard and burned them.

In 1949, during a gold deal gone bad, Doc was shot and killed by a man named Charles Ryan. Mr. Ryan was from Texas and was involved with the oil fields, and had flown into New Mexico to buy some of the gold bars that Doc had said he would sell. At this meeting, Doc asked to see the money before he would bring out the gold, Mr. Ryan wanted to see the gold first, and so on. Doc got up to leave the house and go to his car outside but, as he was walking to the car Mr. Ryan fired a shot in the air and warned Doc that if he keeps going towards his car, that he would get shot. Doc kept going, and Mr. Ryan fired a shot at Doc, hitting Doc in the head and killing him instantly.

Just as Doc stated...."if they catch me with this stuff they will kill me." No truer words were ever spoken. You see, Mr. Ryan was another Mason who was sent to kill an "unfaithful Sentinel." Even if Doc would've brought out the gold first, all that would've done was prove his guilt in ripping off Masonic treasure sites. So, either way, Doc was going to die that day, and the Masons made sure of that.

Mr. Ryan went to court for murdering Doc, but was acquitted. You see, the Judge AND the jury were all Masons. And in their eyes, Doc deserved what he got....afterall....he brought it on himself.

The treasure rooms in New Mexico have been there for a long, long time. This also means that there have been many, many Sentinels protecting them from outsiders. One of these Sentinels, believe it or not, was Billy the Kid. This is another story for another time, but Billy and another well-known Sentinel, Jesse James, actually knew each other and, in fact, they both ended up in Texas after faking their deaths. Pat Garrett, who "killed" Billy, is buried in a Masonic cemetery in New Mexico. Another fact is that Billy and Jesse celebrated Jesse's 102nd birthday....in 1949 (in Texas)...the same year that Doc Noss was killed for stealing from treasure rooms."

 

[gollum]

I can't find anything on guerrilla gang. No newspaper clippings back to 1854. No mentions online. Maybe someone local may know something.

Mike

 

[UncleMatt]

I have seen zero evidence that masons were involved with Doc, or that he was a "sentinel". Looking for connections to pet theories where none exists seems to be common among many treasure hunter types. But I'm always open to evidence proving me wrong, so if I missed something, please post what you have.

Even if he was, what significance does that hold for us as researchers?

I've seen people claim VP was a deposit left by Atlantians, should we give that some thought? Does that deserve to be seriously considered?

 

[sdcfia]

I have seen zero evidence that masons were involved with Doc, or that he was a "sentinel". Looking for connections to pet theories where none exists seems to be common among many treasure hunter types. But I'm always open to evidence proving me wrong, so if I missed something, please post what you have.

Even if he was, what significance does that hold for us as researchers?

I've seen people claim VP was a deposit left by Atlantians, should we give that some thought? Does that deserve to be seriously considered?

As far as I'm concerned, it's all on the table because, frankly, there is a black hole of verifiable information enveloping this subject. We have all the well-known lore that has surfaced since the 30s. Now we have the recent Gold House publication, which has been beneficial but has raised even more questions about Noss, his escapades and his history. That's why we have these discussions. If we knew the answers, we wouldn't be talking about it.

For example, where did all the gold come from? You postulated earlier that it was booty from Apache raiders. Really? Thousands of bars of gold? Don Jose claims it was all Jesuit gold from Mexico. Really? Do we suspend history and logistics to accept that? Noss claimed it was Padre LaRue's gold. Really? Nowhere other than treasure hunter books has anyone ever mentioned such a person. There are no records in Mexico or anywhere else. How about "Lost Spanish gold?" Really? Are you familiar with the history of Spanish mining protocols in the New World? Is it possible the Crown accumulated this treasure and failed to retrieve it, considering the documentation required of the mining contractors and the location of the Caballos? Could the gold have been cached in Pre-Columbian times? We don't know. Could it have been cached after the Civil War? We don't know.

Maybe one or all of these rumors are valid. The point is, we don't know. Nobody has yet demonstrated that any of them is more than postulation. Maybe the truth exists somewhere else. Maybe someone will demonstrate the truth some day. Nobody cares about proving you wrong - what people care about is the truth no matter what it is. If you aren't willing to think outside the box, then you'll remain in the box.

"Even if he (Noss) was (a sentinel), what significance does that hold for us as researchers?" Now that's a question from inside the box..

 

[UncleMatt]

Yes, I postulated, I didn't claim it was a certain way based on some idea I wanted to link to Noss and/or VP. The idea we must invoke the masons due to the large amount of gold claimed to be stored at VP would require you first to prove that the masons were in a position to collect and hoard it there....

Added later: I was sitting in a long, boring corporate meeting this morning and I started thinking about this. We all postulate and engage in conjecture here about various things, often since there is nothing else to do due to lack of evidence. It just seems to me that at some point you have to limit that somewhat, or you end up thinking it was space aliens or Elvis who left the gold there.

To me it seems most likely to be a Spanish hoard, and perhaps added to later by others. The fact it was claimed Wells Fargo gold bars were among the hoard suggests that is possible. Of course anything is possible, I just tend to limit my "box" to what is likely, and not allow it to include anything and everything.

 

[johnmark29020]

Perhaps the gold came from the future. People in the future sent it back in time. So it would be old at the time of discovery. When in fact its the gold stolen from future fort knox. Haha. I just had to pull you guys chain a little. Have a cup of coffee on me.

 

[sdcfia]

Yes, I postulated, I didn't claim it was a certain way based on some idea I wanted to link to Noss and/or VP. The idea we must invoke the masons due to the large amount of gold claimed to be stored at VP would require you first to prove that the masons were in a position to collect and hoard it there....

I will be happy to link masons, or atlantians, or space aliens, to our topic here as soon as some verifiable evidence is posted to justify doing so...

The Atlantians or space aliens may be beyond our grasp for now.

Why wait for someone else to post the things you want? Maybe some of this stuff would be more satisfying for you to discover on your own. The Jesuits? Don Jose jumped on np's "Noss map" to prove a Jesuit connection between Sonora and the Caballos. When the provenance of that map can be established, the topic might deserve discussion. Until then, it carries the Noss stigma - possible fraud. As far as the Jesuits are concerned, I'd be more curious about other colonial-era allegations, namely the rumors that Kino made secret exploratory trips into southern New Mexico, and that the Santa Fe Franciscans also complained about Jesuits intradas into New Mexico, a violation of Franciscans' domain. Were the Jesuits looking for something? If so, what information did they possess?

While you're at it, see if you can nail down any relationships, common ground and/or alliances held between the Jesuit Order and the Knights Templar, the root of Masonry. Does the ubiquitous Mediterranean symbolism found in New Mexico's lower Rio Grande region indicate Pre-Columbian activities there by explorers from Northern Africa/Middle East regions? If so, could there be some link to the Caballos? And the Frenchman "LaRue"? We can't find an historical French priest who fits his legend. Also, what's up with the idea that Maximilian's treasure may have been cached in these treasure vaults? Another French connection. And here comes another - the French Jesuits obsession in the New Mexico region prior to the Spanish Jesuits arrival. What's with all this French stuff?

Here's more for you to ferret out. The "Guerrilla Gang" - Douthit, Noss, Ward and others. What kind of an organization are we talking about here? Noss, associated with the Oklahoma Starrs (a can of worms in their own right), supposedly a Cheyenne (really?), was a Mason. Buster Ward was taken to a Masonic hospital following his accident, Willie we don't know about. Is there a pattern? Merely a coincidence? Maybe, maybe not.

You can buy the book answers to the Caballo mysteries for a buck-two-ninety-eight. If you're more curious about looking under the hood, it'll take work.

 

[markmar]

sdcfia

I believe the most possible is the gold to be Jesuit , but this don't reject the possibility to be a pre Colombian deposit on which was added another stuff . Think this :

The lil map shows gold ( oro ) to be carried to Caballos from Mexico and other sources .
The lil map has a Jesuit padre name on .
The Doc's green map has seven scaled doors on .
Pope Pius III knew about this scaled doors .

The " Cities of gold " is a metaphor of caves with gold bars . Has relation with the perfect symmetry used in the ancient Roman towns . Gold bars with the same dimension arranged side by side . Look what I mean :