DOC NOSS-Victorio Peak OR The Caballo Mountains

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'd afternoon. I have stated my interest in the bars lies in where did they come from and how' At first I was a disbeliever then NP dropped that lil map in my lap and it got me to thinking and ultimately discarding my previous theories on how it was shipped from Sonora to Matamoros.The lil map was originally drawn by some from that period, it may have had annotations added later, but It was correct for the period.

For instance the Chinapas mine. Not even the present owners of the Palmarejo Mine know of it. It lies down the Chinapas river some 12 miles on the western bank. It is very old an was extremely rich. An Indian directed me to the portal which is hidden behind a huge rock. very difficult to find even though you know where to look - typical col. period frontier mine, a rabbit hole entrance. How did the person know where it is? He had to have been from that era of The Tayopa years.

This sparked my interest since all other data was also correct - no way could any of the early performers such as Willie or Doc have done itS

So it established in my mind that the orig. map was genuine and the bars were from Sonoran / Chihuahua mines.

This gave me another problem, why did they add some hundreds of miles of travel to end up in an Apache strong hold as Victoria Peak / Caballo mts were.

Even with a strong military force this did not make sense.

Then I remembered a remark on the inerrnet and fired off an EM - the answer 'no record of any Jesuit deal with the Apache nation is recorded', but 'yes', deals were made with individual Chiefs for protection from their raids by pay offs, a fat cow whenever they needed one, supplies, or similar things, In other a take off of the modern protection racket, you pay me to not attack you and we are both happy.

So for the moment let's assume that the Masters of bribery succeeded in making a deal with the Apache for safe passage of their mule trains to the vicinity of Victorio Peak /. Caballo mts, and set up operations there. With the passage of time they were shown the fissure and cave system by the Apache and decided to take advantage of it by constructing the underground rooms or vaults.

Since they were deep inside of Apache territory they were assured that no casual investigator would follow them. They were assured secrecy no matter the cost.

When they were expelled from the Americas, the Apache added a few knick knacks to the Jesuit materiel

.When a Jesuit ship was due, they constructed barges or rafts, and floated them down to the ships.

I wonder how many loads were lost in the river ??


Ok, you have enough data to have a field day with me, find the basic faults and lets go from there.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

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[treasminder2]

I'm having a Starbucks Coffee at this very moment

after tow more of these

I will be bright enough to type some more mysteries .


or one of my poems

Like this one


~~~ " Dry Eye's on a Windward Sail " ~~~~


The first lady said to the
Bald Headed Boy

This is Treasure
and not your Toy

Moses to Josh
Ya can't have the land
without killing by gosh

Pharaoh said to reap
what ya sow
just don't feed the masses
that live down below

Abraham and Issach
digging a Well
found more then they bargained
when the reached the limits of
hell

Noah screeched it's gonna rain
his sons all thought
he quite insane

the animals came two at a time
stunk up the Boat
with a mass of slime

Jacob on his ladder
his reason spent

said : I thought I saw puddy Tat
big and mean
wonder where it went

Along came Peter
Pickin' on Paul
saying you can never be sure
what it was you saw

Paul said
we can live happily ever after
or run in rage
ya can't put a lion in a cage
and expect him to be thankful
for the shelter you gave

Joseph to Marry he did say
if you want a Son
then bend a knee and prsy

Mary would settle for a girl
but not to be

cause the Lord said
it takes a Son to glorify me .

Wind in the Sail
cause the ship to go

when the wind dies down
takes a huge amount to flow
past the Pillars
of Hercules
and back to america
and those Red Wood trees

I just sailed on
into that wind
doubt this child
will return again

Been out to Sea too long

learn to be at ease
while I write this song

Monkeys Dance on a Pogo Stick

Dance away Monkeys
away from this ship

no monkey gonna sink me

raced away to the
open sea

I turned to see Gawd
in another light
he said Son , you'd better
get sleep tonight
for on the morn
wind shall rise
those asleep
at the helm
are them that dies

Blessed Virgin took her pill
got off balance
fell from
the window sill

Picking up
where I left off
I managed to avoid
the whooping cough

Cough said I was lucky
not to be dead

I slapped his teeth
right outta his head

Talk to me in that tone

and nothin' be left
but your Noggin Bone


~~~~ End ~~~

Enjoy Folks

and in turn
they'll enjoy you

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

 

[treasminder2]

Hey

what is that picture of ?

A spider Web ?

 

[coazon de oro]

Hola Don Jose,

I have refrained from commenting on the so called Noss Map, mainly so that you will finally write the book.

This map, if it is a copy of another, why the need to stain it to make it look old?

Even though it is a map, it leads nowhere, it just shows the apparent routes from several treasure legends, there is no exact location of any of these legends, just a general area. All these legends were known to be in their general area even back in 1861. However many were not yet pinpointed like you have pinpointed your Tayopa, or like Tesoro Del Alma pinpointed Chato's stash in the Caballo's.

It does seem to point a way of transporting Jesuit riches out to the Vatican. Jesuits transported many of their agricultural goods which could easily cover gold, and silver, but this map could be made with only the knowledge of the legends.

How do you conclude the person making the map, knew the exact location of the Chinapas Mine, and was not just referring to the river, or mining area of Chinapas?

Homar

 

[gollum]

Hola Don Jose,

I have refrained from commenting on the so called Noss Map, mainly so that you will finally write the book.

This map, if it is a copy of another, why the need to stain it to make it look old?

Even though it is a map, it leads nowhere, it just shows the apparent routes from several treasure legends, there is no exact location of any of these legends, just a general area. All these legends were known to be in their general area even back in 1861. However many were not yet pinpointed like you have pinpointed your Tayopa, or like Tesoro Del Alma pinpointed Chato's stash in the Caballo's.

It does seem to point a way of transporting Jesuit riches out to the Vatican. Jesuits transported many of their agricultural goods which could easily cover gold, and silver, but this map could be made with only the knowledge of the legends.

How do you conclude the person making the map, knew the exact location of the Chinapas Mine, and was not just referring to the river, or mining area of Chinapas?

Homar

Hey Homar,

That is not a map TO the mines. I explained this to someone else a while ago. Most of the symbolism is directed to the end of the trail (so to speak). It is a map to the "warehouse" (almacen) or "counting room". Specifics for the mines don't matter because the map is not a guide TO THE MINES. A lot can be learned from any document or map by taking in the context and looking for the details. IN this case, all the details are at the opposite end of the mine trail.

If it were a map from the "warehouse" (almacen) to the mines, then you would see all the symbolism at the other end of the trail.

Just a thought I'd share. When I get home from work tonight, I will try and break down the map for you.

Mike

 

[UncleMatt]

Maybe Rincon basin?

Mike

Mike, what significance do you think that basin has?

 

[coazon de oro]

Hey Homar,

That is not a map TO the mines. I explained this to someone else a while ago. Most of the symbolism is directed to the end of the trail (so to speak). It is a map to the "warehouse" (almacen) or "counting room". Specifics for the mines don't matter because the map is not a guide TO THE MINES. A lot can be learned from any document or map by taking in the context and looking for the details. IN this case, all the details are at the opposite end of the mine trail.

If it were a map from the "warehouse" (almacen) to the mines, then you would see all the symbolism at the other end of the trail.

Just a thought I'd share. When I get home from work tonight, I will try and break down the map for you.

Mike

I understand this, and am trying to point that Noss could have made it without knowing exactly where the legends were. All he needed was the general area, and history of the legends. Even the "almacen" in the Caballo's is not pinpointed, they knew about the legend from Pedro Navarez confession.

It does appear to me, that it was intended to lead hunters away from his find.

The copper bars he was accused of trying to pass as gold, were probably dore bars that had more copper than gold in them. That's how I believe that story started.

Homar

 

[gollum]

Mike, what significance do you think that basin has?

That was actually a question directed towards someone watching this thread. Not really at liberty to say, unless he says something first. Sorry

Mike

 

[gollum]

I understand this, and am trying to point that Noss could have made it without knowing exactly where the legends were. All he needed was the general area, and history of the legends. Even the "almacen" in the Caballo's is not pinpointed, they knew about the legend from Pedro Navarez confession.

It does appear to me, that it was intended to lead hunters away from his find.

The copper bars he was accused of trying to pass as gold, were probably dore bars that had more copper than gold in them. That's how I believe that story started.

Homar

No, read the book "The Treasure of Victoria Peak" by Phil Khoury. He goes into detail about that. Doc had several lead bars painted gold and some copper bars. When he would make appointments to sell real gold bars, and he got a bad feeling about the buyer (maybe a cop or secret service), he would bring one of the fakes to the meeting. The buyer would get pissed and leave, and Doc stayed out of jail. Remember, after 1933 it was illegal for regular people to own more than 5 ounces of gold in the United States.

Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Nah my friend, just the two alternate routes to the rio Grande, the broad lines., from thier division at just above Chihuahua.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi Homar mi compadre,

A) I assumed the off color was due to the copying and sending procedure

B) .there is no exact location of any of these legends,, there is no need to, for those that know the area it is strictly a reminder, It merely shows the traila, not the locations and in proper sequence.

C) The Chinapas antigua mine is not pinpointed, but merely shows it's general location in reference to Tayopa, which I can give you Lat * Long if you wish for a solid strarting point/

D) Those lines are not rivers, but trails and serve their puprose quite well.

 

[coazon de oro]

No, read the book "The Treasure of Victoria Peak" by Phil Khoury. He goes into detail about that. Doc had several lead bars painted gold and some copper bars. When he would make appointments to sell real gold bars, and he got a bad feeling about the buyer (maybe a cop or secret service), he would bring one of the fakes to the meeting. The buyer would get pissed and leave, and Doc stayed out of jail. Remember, after 1933 it was illegal for regular people to own more than 5 ounces of gold in the United States.

Mike

Thanks for clarifying that Mike, I stand corrected.

Homar

 

[coazon de oro]

Hi Homar mi compadre,

A) I assumed the off color was due to the copying and sending procedure

B) .there is no exact location of any of these legends,, there is no need to, for those that know the area it is strictly a reminder, It merely shows the traila, not the locations and in proper sequence.

C) The Chinapas antigua mine is not pinpointed, but merely shows it's general location in reference to Tayopa, which I can give you Lat * Long if you wish for a solid strarting point/

D) Those lines are not rivers, but trails and serve their puprose quite well.

Compadre,

You assume that the off color is due to the copying, and sending procedure, while I assume that a stain was brushed on to deceive. So what are you doing posting, when you could be writing?

Homar

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Celebrating Homar. My eyes were getting worse,so I dug up a pair of glasses the past few days. The contrast on the letters was getting so bad that I couldn't finish a post, then while rummaging in the desk I found a bottle of alcohol and looking at thr glasses thought "why not?" so i cleaned them with the alky and lo and behold, the contrast turned normal again. Apparently the piece of tissue had some oil on it.

I ain't so durn smart after all

 

[gollum]

Celebrating Homar. My eyes were getting worse,so I dug up a pair of glasses the past few days. The contrast on the letters was getting so bad that I couldn't finish a post, then while rummaging in the desk I found a bottle of alcohol and looking at thr glasses thought "why not?" so i cleaned them with the alky and lo and behold, the contrast turned normal again. Apparently the piece of tissue had some oil on it.

I ain't so durn smart after all

JUST DON'T CLEAN YOUR GLASSES WITH THE SAME TISSUE YOU BLOW YOUR NOSE WITH!

Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hola Homer, Fresh hot corn tortillas to go with your coffee? Dripping with real butter. Oro will gladly join you.

Cause a book should not leave you hanging, tisn't a simple 'veni, vedi, venci.

'" I came, I saw, I conquered"

Tayopa is just a small part of a far broader picture. which includes the planned take over of north America from Spain, and

 

[Not Peralta]

Well, I just wanted to catch up on reading some post with a good hotbut now you made me hungry.np

 

[UncleMatt]

Lunch is ready Gentlemen!

I refer you all to page 42 of 'Lure of the Caballos', where one finds a photo pointing out Cable Canyon, two parking locations, and the location of the adit of the author on his claim there. And as well there is a reference and an arrow to a location for a "Cleato Springs". This spelling may at first confuse those familiar with the name Cleto Springs, but it appears from other misspellings in the text that this is simply an error, and it should indeed read "Cleto Springs". There is also reference in this book of Noss camping out at "Cleto's cabin" near this spring. I see some items of interest on Google Earth, but of course not enough detail to be sure of anything. As well, this is nowhere near Rincon. Is there another spring near Rincon that should also exist, or is this the spring where Noss supposedly hid his chest of maps and gold?

 

[Not Peralta]

Lunch is ready Gentlemen!

I refer you all to page 42 of 'Lure of the Caballos', where one finds a photo pointing out Cable Canyon, two parking locations, and the location of the adit of the author on his claim there. And as well there is a reference and an arrow to a location for a "Cleato Springs". This spelling may at first confuse those familiar with the name Cleto Springs, but it appears from other misspellings in the text that this is simply an error, and it should indeed read "Cleto Springs". There is also reference in this book of Noss camping out at "Cleto's cabin" near this spring. I see some items of interest on Google Earth, but of course not enough detail to be sure of anything. As well, this is nowhere near Rincon. Is there another spring near Rincon that should also exist, or is this the spring where Noss supposedly hid his chest of maps and gold?

you need to read post 16 for what you are asking.np