DOC NOSS-Victorio Peak OR The Caballo Mountains

[sdcfia]

... Could I have been standing near where Noss once emerged, blinking, back into the bright NM sun after finding that one last map sign that led him to a long-forgotten stash of star-metal ...

Starr metal maybe, as in Tom Starr from Oklahoma.

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Agony and Death on a Gold Rush Steamer: The Disastrous Sinking of the Side-Wheeler Yankee Blade - Grab it through Amazon!

[Ditlihi]

Starr metal maybe, as in Tom Starr from Oklahoma.

Would be an interesting connection....if it were true.

Have done the genealogy on this alleged grandpappy/great uncle from the panhandle, and the only connection I could find was a "borrowed" one. Wishful thinking, or outright fraud? Maybe you have other info?

 

[sdcfia]

Would be an interesting connection....if it were true.

Have done the genealogy on this alleged grandpappy/great uncle from the panhandle, and the only connection I could find was a "borrowed" one. Wishful thinking, or outright fraud? Maybe you have other info?

According to the Noss family bible, aka The Gold House, Part 1 The Discovery, written by the Apostle John Clarence, Noss claimed to have been fathered by Tom Starr of the Oklahoma Starr outlaw gang (allegedly KGC operatives, according to researchers of that organization). To be fair, Merle Horzmann, the self-acclaimed mole in the Noss organization - who was gathering evidence for the Feds during the 1940s in order to prosecute Noss for various frauds - didn't believe the Starr connection either. Doc accused of lying? I'm shocked ... shocked! By the way, Horzmann also claimed at that time to be in contact with Billy the Kid (Brushy Bill Roberts), who told her that he too had tapped into Victorio Peak whenever he was low on funds. Billy is of course alleged to have been KGC too. Quien sabe? Here's the rogue's gallery posing for a portrait.

 

[Ditlihi]

According to the Noss family bible, aka The Gold House, Part 1 The Discovery, written by the Apostle John Clarence, Noss claimed to have been fathered by Tom Starr of the Oklahoma Starr outlaw gang (allegedly KGC operatives, according to researchers of that organization). To be fair, Merle Horzmann, the self-acclaimed mole in the Noss organization - who was gathering evidence for the Feds during the 1940s in order to prosecute Noss for various frauds - didn't believe the Starr connection either. Doc accused of lying? I'm shocked ... shocked! By the way, Horzmann also claimed at that time to be in contact with Billy the Kid (Brushy Bill Roberts), who told her that he too had tapped into Victorio Peak whenever he was low on funds. Billy is of course alleged to have been KGC too. Quien sabe? Here's the rogue's gallery posing for a portrait.

View attachment 1455136

Heheh....yup, have read that bible. Let's just say that "Mr. Starr" had massaged the truth so many times, his Indian name was ' Rubs The Lotion '.

Nice pic.

 

[whiskeyrat]

QUOTE wr:
<snip>
I have followed the cable from bottom to near the top where it goes up a vertical cliff. I have not been above the vertical cliff yet, but I will be this year.
I have not found a sheave block bolted into a rock anywhere from the entrance to the canyon to the vertical cliff where the cable disappears up and over.
<snip>
wr



Found some old pictures. Here's one looking down on Cable Canyon - from much higher up than it looks.

View attachment 1454951

A few things of interest: the lone juniper far below. This is where I had seen the explosives boxes and thick-milled lumber another time. Also, that vehicle parked below was some old green and white job that was abandoned there for some time. Anyone really familiar with the mountains during that time could use it to date the general time of this picture as the truck was there for quite a while.

Guess I'll throw in a scenic view, too. Tough work, but that S-NM terrain has its own special beauty.

View attachment 1454952

Could I have been standing near where Noss once emerged, blinking, back into the bright NM sun after finding that one last map sign that led him to a long-forgotten stash of star-metal, or did he only gaze at this area from a distance on his way back and forth to Hembrillo? Did he lug oh-so-satisfyingly dense bars of contraband metal down these very slopes to his purported camp at Cleto, one-by-one, following the very path of Mr. Foreman years earlier, or was Cleto where he camped to tire out the followers who would otherwise track him to Vic when his entourage was a bit thin?

Watch your footing.

*(I say star-metal, because geological science makes the claim that energy densities were not high enough during the formation of the Earth to produce much more than lead, so things higher on the table necessarily come from old super-nova leftovers.)

Yes that beautiful juniper down low is what I call the "lunch tree". Its just a great place to have lunch in the shade.

So, Mr Foreman?? who is this individual

I do think he and his spent much time at cleto springs, Im not sure that cleto springs is where most people think it is?
I believe I have found the actual cleto springs.
wr

 

[Ditlihi]

Btw, Tom Starr died in 1890, at the age of 77.....Noss's birth (1905) must surely have been by Immaculate Conception.

 

[whiskeyrat]

Careful, go slow, don't overload your circuits. It's a deep rabbit hole.

Yes, thank you sir.
I am just beginning to understand and appreciate what a deep rabbit hole this is.
But I think our chances are better chasing the correct rabbit.

wr

 

[whiskeyrat]

the reason it is a "lunch tree" is because I am not an early riser.
wr

 

[BIGSCOTT]

I to did some ancestry searching on the name Starr, I found a Starr head of household, nobody else in the
house was named Starr, but the rest of the household and the house next door had first names of the
Jesse James bunch family and friends just to close to be coincedence, but then again i have seen alot of
coincidence in ancestry, I never followed up on it and had forgotten about it untill y'all started posting about James and Starr on this page.

 

[BIGSCOTT]

Also y'all may already know this but Cleto was the guy's first name,
he was a ranch hand for Milton Holden, Cleto Fuentes.

 

[Ditlihi]

I to did some ancestry searching on the name Starr, I found a Starr head of household, nobody else in the
house was named Starr, but the rest of the household and the house next door had first names of the
Jesse James bunch family and friends just to close to be coincedence, but then again i have seen alot of
coincidence in ancestry, I never followed up on it and had forgotten about it untill y'all started posting about James and Starr on this page.

In the 1900's, there were *........

4,559 boys given the name "Jesse". / 3,378 more, spelling it "Jessie"
29,046 given the name "Frank"
O with the name "Billy"....though plenty of Bills


Compare that to the 30's, 40's, and 50's...after Hollywood made outlaws come to life on the big screen....

........................ 1930's ...... 1940's. .....1950's

Jesse (ie) - ......30,176. ..... 34,852. ..... 37,965
Frank - .......... 108,069. .... 119,403. ... 151,827
Billy - ............... 88,309. ..... 67,813. ..... 42,099


And I'd be willing to bet a big chunk of those were in Oklahoma.

It doesn't surprise me at all that you found outlaw related first names, it was quite the in thing at the time.


* Figures from U.S. Social Security Index

 

[sdcfia]

Yes, thank you sir.
I am just beginning to understand and appreciate what a deep rabbit hole this is.
But I think our chances are better chasing the correct rabbit.

wr

Ah, therein lies the rub. How to decide which rabbit?

 

[sdcfia]

Btw, Tom Starr died in 1890, at the age of 77.....Noss's birth (1905) must surely have been by Immaculate Conception.

Yes, we know that Noss the liar likely adopted the name as a sort of alter ego. Not necessarily a sure thing, but likely, based on his consistently shady character. However, as you know, if we want to talk KGC, then we need to be aware about that group's calculated use of names in general. They favored using names of their primary historical confederates (no pun intended) when identifying landmarks, assigning place names and especially when inventing personalities who were involved in "treasure tales". The "JJ" carving was used in numerous cases, whether or not Jesse was there in person (the Black Book ought to make that clear) - a no-brainer. Also immediately recognizable to the in crowd was Adams, Hart, Starr and many others. It's their branding.

 

[Dirt1955]

Whiskeyrat asked:

So, Mr Foreman?? who is this individual??

I do think he and his spent much time at cleto springs, Im not sure that cleto springs is where most people think it is?
I believe I have found the actual cleto springs.
wr

For those who may not have traveled down this particular RABBIT HOLE, here's a short synopsis on Mr Foreman:
Willie Douthit & Laurence W Foreman are one and the same. Talk about a rabbit hole!
Laurence W. Foreman the author of Passport to Eternity, 1970 LAWRENCE FOREMAN

Born March 27, 1908
Died February 4, 1998 at Rancho Bernardo, San Diego, California

There's a lot on line about Willie/Laurence. Mike McChessney "Gollum" has great research on the California part of his life.The book is strange to say the least and has little to do with treasure hunting.

WR, if you don't mind...where do you place Cleto Springs?

Dirt

 

[Ditlihi]

Yes, we know that Noss the liar likely adopted the name as a sort of alter ego. Not necessarily a sure thing, but likely, based on his consistently shady character. However, as you know, if we want to talk KGC, then we need to be aware about that group's calculated use of names in general. They favored using names of their primary historical confederates (no pun intended) when identifying landmarks, assigning place names and especially when inventing personalities who were involved in "treasure tales". The "JJ" carving was used in numerous cases, whether or not Jesse was there in person (the Black Book ought to make that clear) - a no-brainer. Also immediately recognizable to the in crowd was Adams, Hart, Starr and many others. It's their branding.

Indeed, my mention of the ficticious relationship to Tom Starr was to save others from that particular rabbit hole. Been there, done that, unfortunately. The borrowing of the name Starr should be viewed in a much wider sense, as you have explained. The Black Book is an invaluable reference in that respect.

 

[Real of Tayopa]

The Caballo had an important place in the Jesuit operations, aside from the others that used it. NP's lil map showed this in part.

 

[nmth]

Cable canyon boxes and wood.

Not sure they were there when you passed by, WR?

Looks like ol'memory was flawed in one way - that looks like dimensional lumber, not rough-hewn.

 

[autofull]

scdfia, i saw and sat next to it and took photos of the block in 1973 when four of us from pa went a snoopin around fer three months. it was real then but i cannot vouch for what happened to it now. would not doubt someone blew it up for fun. lotta odd people around there back then. yeah, different times and i miss them. kevin-- autofull

 

[whiskeyrat]

Cable canyon boxes and wood.

Not sure they were there when you passed by, WR?

Looks like ol'memory was flawed in one way - that looks like dimensional lumber, not rough-hewn.

View attachment 1458100

Hmmm, aw no.
I have had lunch under that tree many times in the last 3 years and there is nothing there now.
What year was that picture taken?
Something was obviously going on at that time.
Nothing but a lot of cow dung under the tree now.
wr

 

[whiskeyrat]

Whiskeyrat asked:

So, Mr Foreman?? who is this individual??

I do think he and his spent much time at cleto springs, Im not sure that cleto springs is where most people think it is?
I believe I have found the actual cleto springs.
wr

For those who may not have traveled down this particular RABBIT HOLE, here's a short synopsis on Mr Foreman:
Willie Douthit & Laurence W Foreman are one and the same. Talk about a rabbit hole!
Laurence W. Foreman the author of Passport to Eternity, 1970 LAWRENCE FOREMAN

Born March 27, 1908
Died February 4, 1998 at Rancho Bernardo, San Diego, California

There's a lot on line about Willie/Laurence. Mike McChessney "Gollum" has great research on the California part of his life.The book is strange to say the least and has little to do with treasure hunting.

WR, if you don't mind...where do you place Cleto Springs?

Dirt

Ok, I did not recognize the reference to willies alter ego.
I have read the book "passport to eternity" nothing about the treasure in there.
But did seem to know a lot about advanced engineering type stuff.

My cleto springs is at 32 55 34.85 N and 107 14 46.91 W
Old road (barely visible) leads to it
there is an old about 1928 radiator shroud leaning against a tree and some metal stuff around
wr