DOC NOSS-Victorio Peak OR The Caballo Mountains

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good question shawt finger. They were in the same time factor I believe. Records are scarce.

 

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[sdcfia]

SDCFIA - it was Prospector77 that mentioned a Hapsburg sword, not Real de Tayopa, and I repeated it. IF the sword was found and was really a Hapsburg sword, it would be pointing very much away from 1767 and the Jesuits, more to the Austrian born emperor of Mexico and his French allies under Napoleon III. Napoleon had a lot of interest in the mines of Mexico and made some effort to get them under his control and producing. However there really was French and French Jesuit interest in New Mexican silver, and at least two attempts were made to reach the area from Canada, one successfully. I do NOT discount the French at all concerning the Caballos and/or Vic peak.

My mistake - thanks for the correction. Don Jose - my apologies. Your feet are still rooted in terra firma.

 

[whiskeyrat]

Wow, all of you guys are amazing. I gotta say the history, the apparent research into these time periods, the knowledge that you all show with your replies in these treads is truly awe inspiring.
I feel like "tiny" in my knowledge of these happenings. I gotta say, the deeper I get, the more the history fascinates me instead of just the gold bars. Very awesome.
Thank you to everyone of you for the time you have invested and the knowledge you are willing to share. Truely amazing. This should be a history class in every American high school.
So, coming from my very tiny position, I have been putting boots on the ground and meeting fascinating local historical prospectors for the past several years.
I can say that i have seen many photo albums with 1000s of pics covering the last 90 years in the canyons of the cabollos. Not that picture proves anything,but not the less they are there in all the fuzzy detail of old cameras in the field with notes on the backs of the pictures.
I have seen many pics of dory bars of "gold" with accompanying "assay" reports that were found in the Caballos in recent years. Yes i know, picture albums could be faked, assays could be faked, but to me it did not and does not look like fake stuff put together. Some of the people in the pics are dead, some are still living and still on the mountain.
And they are not trying to scam me into anything, not asking me to join them or give money, in fact if anything, I am trying ask them to be allowed in. They are just proud of and just kindly showing me what their lives have produced. I guess I have no reason to doubt the pics i have seen.
But you all know, i have the affliction of believing what I see, perhaps more than is good for me.
The pics of dory bars, I gotta say, I was surprised what they looked like. Glad I saw them. I could have walked past piles of those and not thought they were valuable at all.
So, it seems to me, regardless of where it came from, where it was going, it did end up in the Caballos for some reason.
Maybe Tayopa had more than one route to Europe. Why send everything over one route and risk it all, develop several trade routes and split the shipments up to increase the chance that something gets to its final destination.
If one trade route gets shut down, you still have shipments going over the other route.
It does not have to be "all or nothing", "one route or nothing".
Happy Holidays everyone, keep posting, i am loving the education. You are all the best.
wr

 

[Not Peralta]

Oro, Amigo, some of my perfect blend, the history behind the LiL Map as I know it was already posted in this thread, plus several other maps, one or two of the maps belonged to roger snows father,which roger thought were lost forever,he thanked me for posting them on TN,he found out his brother sold his fathers files and papers to jerry c and ONFP,without his knowledge. all the info on the LiL map that I have has already been posted, anything before 1994, your guess would be as good as mine.all I can do is share what was told to me,np

 

[Not Peralta]

TO ALL MY AMIGO"S, HAVE A SAFE AND HAPPY HOLIDAYS,NP

 

[mdog]

Here's an excerpt from an article about smuggling in France and examples of how clerics were involved.

Whilst the professional bands were responsible for much of the contraband
traffic in early modern France, clerics and other ecclesiasts often organised the
smuggling which happened on a smaller scale. They could justify their law--‐breaking
by bringing aid to those who were living in poverty and helping them buy products
that were essential to them at a lower price. Every month, the curé of Saint--‐Didier
in Franche--‐Comté made a monthly trip into the
pays de grande gabelle to sell the
salt collected by his parishioners at the market. Similarly, the curé of Gennes near
Angers would lend several youngsters the money they needed to buy a pound of
cheap salt and sell it over the border in the Maine
. At Elne, between Perpignan and
Banyuls--‐sur--‐Mer, officials of the
Ferme found in the church a total sixty minots of
salt, some of which had been collected locally, the rest imported from Spain. It was
hidden in wardrobes, coffers, and even under the altar, in the sacristy and in the
choir. To make matters worse, they also found one hundred pounds of powdered
snuff and two pounds of contraband tobacco. Another church in the same town
was also found to be hiding thirty
minots of salt behind the altar. At Vernols and
Chavaniac in the Haute Auvergne, the churches were both found to contain
massive stores of contraband tobacco, which the curés were known to be dealing
to their parishioners. Various religious orders were also guilty of smuggling. The
Capuchins of Alais, Agde and Pont--‐Saint--‐Esprit were all discovered to be hoarding
and dealing enormous amounts of tobacco. Likewise, at Montpellier, the Couvent
181
Hufton, The Poor of Eighteenth--‐Century France, p. 299.
Chapter 5: The People
72
de la Trinité was known throughout the city to be a reliable source of cheap
tobacco. Also at Montpellier, after Antoiner Garnier was arrested for carrying
contraband tobacco and subsequently condemned to the galleys for five years, the
Dames de la Miséricorde wrote to the local authorities, and later the king himself,
asking for pardon. They stressed that he had a wife and four children to support,
and they offered to pay any fines charged in lieu of sentencing him to the galleys.
Such behaviour may well be a sign of guilt over the arrest of man whom they
commissioned to traffic their contraband tobacco.
182

Here's the link to the article.

http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/arts/emforum/projects/disstheses/dissertations/spence-caroline.pdf

 

[gollum]

Roy,

I have said all along, I thought it most likely The Jesuits deposited the bars, and over the years, the Apache added to the hoard as they attacked and killed in that same area.

I have to say that another good possibility is, take the story as we know it regarding Confederate Soldiers who stole the Mexican Royal Treasury that Emperor Maximillian sent North with his Austrian Bodyguard. People have been searching the area of Castle Gap, Texas for many years looking for it, and it has yet to be found. Then, all of a sudden, Doc Noss describes a chest in a cave under Victorio Peak with a plate saying "CARLOTA". Roy's Hapsburg Era Sword was found as well. Did the Confederates steal that hoard and secret it in the caves beneath VP? The area was rampant with Apache, but this area was also under the control of The Confederacy from 1861 - 1863. I have also found mentions of a large Confederate Community in El Paso del Norte after the Civil War. A perfect way to cover up a KGC Theft of Maximillian's Treasury. Say it was stolen by rogue ex-Confederate Soldiers who were themselves killed in an Indian Attack, and it was hurriedly buried in the area of Castle Gap. Keeps everybody looking by the border, while it winds up almost directly North of that large ex-Confederate Community in El Paso. Just throwing some thoughts out there.

Mike

 

[prospecter77]

The Hapsburgs were involved in Tayopa from the very beginning , as for Hurdaide , this word means calvary an was not someones name, 1540 Hernan Cortes sailed to Oxaca , this party found mines in Zacatecas , Potosi and others , and Tayopa , people involved were Cortes, Villegos , Guzman, Gerard , Lobo ,Orosco, and many others

 

[Oroblanco]

The Hapsburgs were involved in Tayopa from the very beginning , as for Hurdaide , this word means calvary an was not someones name, 1580 Hernan Cortes sailed to Oxaca , this party found mines in Zacatecas , Potosi and others , and Tayopa , people involved were Cortes, Villegos , Guzman, Gerard , Lobo ,Orosco, and many others

You are mistaken about Captain Hurdaide. Here is ONE example (of many)\

In 1599, Captain Diego de Hurdaide established San Felipe y Santiago on the site of the modern city of Sinaloa. From here, Captain Hurdaide waged a vigorous military campaign that subjugated the Cáhita-speaking Indians of the Fuerte River - the Sinaloas, Tehuecos, Zuaques, and Ahomes. Initially, these indigenous groups, numbering approximately 20,000 people, resisted strongly, but eventually they were subdued.

The Spanish word for cavalry is caballería. Captain Hurdaide was a rather successful military commander who campaigned in northern Mexico in the period of the late 1500s to early 1600s. The Habsburg royal family was not Spanish, rather the Bourbon family were Spanish royalty except for the brief period when the other Napoleón (1) placed his brother on the throne, which the Spanish hated, and this was fifty years after the Jesuits were expelled from all Spanish dominions and legally had been ordered to disband forever.

Mike - have to agree that the Confederate/treasure of Maximilian possibility remains a rather strong possibility.

Please do continue;

 

[sdcfia]

Roy,

I have said all along, I thought it most likely The Jesuits deposited the bars, and over the years, the Apache added to the hoard as they attacked and killed in that same area.

I have to say that another good possibility is, take the story as we know it regarding Confederate Soldiers who stole the Mexican Royal Treasury that Emperor Maximillian sent North with his Austrian Bodyguard. People have been searching the area of Castle Gap, Texas for many years looking for it, and it has yet to be found. Then, all of a sudden, Doc Noss describes a chest in a cave under Victorio Peak with a plate saying "CARLOTA". Roy's Hapsburg Era Sword was found as well. Did the Confederates steal that hoard and secret it in the caves beneath VP? The area was rampant with Apache, but this area was also under the control of The Confederacy from 1861 - 1863. I have also found mentions of a large Confederate Community in El Paso del Norte after the Civil War. A perfect way to cover up a KGC Theft of Maximillian's Treasury. Say it was stolen by rogue ex-Confederate Soldiers who were themselves killed in an Indian Attack, and it was hurriedly buried in the area of Castle Gap. Keeps everybody looking by the border, while it winds up almost directly North of that large ex-Confederate Community in El Paso. Just throwing some thoughts out there.

Mike

Interesting thoughts, Mike. I believe you may be correct re the CSA involvement, although so far, verifiable details are sorely lacking. I find Noss's "discoveries" of the European artifacts more than coincidental, as well as the rest of his deceptive activities in NM. Not to mention his "Tom Starr" alter ego. See a link with the CSA anyone? If not, you have work to do.

I have doubts about your first paragraph though. First, as you know, I'm very skeptical that Noss made his sensational Victorio Peak gold discovery - I believe it was a red herring scam. Be that as it may, regarding gold caches in the Caballos, I just don't see the logistics that would make a long term Spanish Jesuit presence on the Camino Real de Tierra Adentro workable, considering the state of affairs in the region dating back into the 16th century.

Apaches. Hembrillo Basin was an oft-used campsite for the Apaches, used during escapes into Mexico when the US Cavalry was chasing them. There were springs there. It was also a haven from Spanish soldiers prior to the Anglo period, when traveling the Camino was like running a gauntlet. The natives stole everything they could use, and cached what they couldn't carry in the shallow caves present in and around the basin. Did they deposit a growing pile of gold there? Very doubtful, IMO, because they constantly needed guns and ammo and they learned early on that they could trade gold for arms, and they certainly did this for many years, as military records at the Janos Presidio indicate. The Cozzins book also details similar - and long-established - gold trade during the early Anglo days (1850s). The "Teardrops of Ussen" argument is bogus.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

morning SDC, nah no cool aid, and it wasn't me that mentioned the Hapsburgs, but yes on the conspiricy, as Oro will testify. This was the real reason that the Jesuits were expelled from the new world, among other places, not for illegally mining - a habit they were famous for.

After all where could the Jesuits supposedly illegally mining . which they were, go ? What other reason would a secret order for a simultaneous arrest be given for

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

h SDC, you posted -- Did they deposit a growing pile of gold there? Very doubtful, IMO, because they constantly needed guns and ammo and they learned early on that they could trade gold for arms, and they certainly did this for many years, as military records at the Janos Presidio indicate. The Cozzins book also details similar - and long-established - gold trade during the early Anglo days (1850s). The "Teardrops of Ussen" argument is bogus

.
And they couldn't be bought by the Jesuits No attrition among their warriors.

 

[prospecter77]

Don Juan Onate WAS John of Austria and do your research on Spain and what the Hurdaide was , look up the Conquistadors you will find Diegos real name .

 

[gollum]

Interesting thoughts, Mike. I believe you may be correct re the CSA involvement, although so far, verifiable details are sorely lacking. I find Noss's "discoveries" of the European artifacts more than coincidental, as well as the rest of his deceptive activities in NM. Not to mention his "Tom Starr" alter ego. See a link with the CSA anyone? If not, you have work to do.

I have doubts about your first paragraph though. First, as you know, I'm very skeptical that Noss made his sensational Victorio Peak gold discovery - I believe it was a red herring scam. Be that as it may, regarding gold caches in the Caballos, I just don't see the logistics that would make a long term Spanish Jesuit presence on the Camino Real de Tierra Adentro workable, considering the state of affairs in the region dating back into the 16th century.

Apaches. Hembrillo Basin was an oft-used campsite for the Apaches, used during escapes into Mexico when the US Cavalry was chasing them. There were springs there. It was also a haven from Spanish soldiers prior to the Anglo period, when traveling the Camino was like running a gauntlet. The natives stole everything they could use, and cached what they couldn't carry in the shallow caves present in and around the basin. Did they deposit a growing pile of gold there? Very doubtful, IMO, because they constantly needed guns and ammo and they learned early on that they could trade gold for arms, and they certainly did this for many years, as military records at the Janos Presidio indicate. The Cozzins book also details similar - and long-established - gold trade during the early Anglo days (1850s). The "Teardrops of Ussen" argument is bogus.

SDCFIA,

I don't think Doc was any kind of person that would have been trusted with protecting a treasure of that sort. Also, if he would have been part of a larger group or effort, he would not have been so public about the find. If it were KGC, they would have surreptitiously removed the gold, and nobody would have ever known about it. It would not have wound up on LBJ's Ranch in Texas. Many people scoff at even the notion of the KGC still being in existence. They have had all the time in the world to secretly remove the gold without alerting the US Government.

To me, the Jesuit Order is still the very likely candidate for the placement of the lower cavern of gold bars. They had a limited amount of time to hide their wealth before their suppression (of which they had at least three years notice). When they hid their wealth sometime between 1764 and 1767, the area around the San Andres and the Caballos was still sparsely populated and easy to sneak large mule trains through. After their reinstatement worldwide in 1814, the entire Rio Grande valley was much more populated, and would have been virtually impossible to sneak out a treasure as large as all that.

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

SDCFIA,

I don't think Doc was any kind of person that would have been trusted with protecting a treasure of that sort. Also, if he would have been part of a larger group or effort, he would not have been so public about the find. If it were KGC, they would have surreptitiously removed the gold, and nobody would have ever known about it. It would not have wound up on LBJ's Ranch in Texas. Many people scoff at even the notion of the KGC still being in existence. They have had all the time in the world to secretly remove the gold without alerting the US Government.

To me, the Jesuit Order is still the very likely candidate for the placement of the lower cavern of gold bars. They had a limited amount of time to hide their wealth before their suppression (of which they had at least three years notice). When they hid their wealth sometime between 1764 and 1767, the area around the San Andres and the Caballos was still sparsely populated and easy to sneak large mule trains through. After their reinstatement worldwide in 1814, the entire Rio Grande valley was much more populated, and would have been virtually impossible to sneak out a treasure as large as all that.

Mike

Good post Mike, and I realize that was addressed to Steve but just want to float one more idea past you.

Why could it not be the Franciscan padres that stashed the bullion? They were definitely involved in mining in NM, and in a fairly large way. We don't hear about them so much, perhaps because they do not exert so much efforts in trying to deny they ever did such things. But the padres mining activities were apparently harsh enough that one of the demands made for the Pueblo Indians to make peace after the 1680 rebellion, was that the priests must restrict their activities to farming, no more mining. During that uprising, the Indians made efforts to conceal a number of mines successfully.

It could have even been amassed later; remember the Franciscan padres were thrown out of New Mexico (and all Mexican domains) in 1823 (if memory serves, correction welcome) and were allowed something like a YEAR to get out. Plenty of time to stash away any treasures that they did not wish to have seized by the Mexican government. I don't think they can be ruled out. Also, this area is definitely inside the Franciscan domains, as the religious boundaries were drawn. It would have been risky for Jesuits to be running such an operation inside the Franciscan region. There were cases of "poaching" in each other's domains, that is true, and may explain why the Franciscan missions in northeast Arizona were not re-established after the 1680 revolt, so not impossible but just on the factors we just covered, I would think it more likely to have been Franciscans involved than Jesuits.

Please do continue;

 

[Dr. Syn]

Okay, so maybe we have the different religious groups, Spanish, KGC, Confederates, Apache, Aztec, Bigfoot, or Aliens, all possible behind the treasure. Until it's located and providence proven, any of these could have done it. But one thing would fit with any/all of them. GREED!

The Spanish and religious groups were supposed to pay a percentage to the King for what ever they "found", be it on the sweat/blood of native's backs, or captured booty. Be willing to bet, that not all that was gotten was reported so someone could have their own private stash. King's inspector coming? They would know in advance and could easily hide the extra. Bribes could have been a couple pesos, or some extra rations to those working the mines. Heck they could have even bribed the inspectors. Little bit of gold in their pockets and they look the other way. And who's to say one of the folks didn't slip a couple nuggets or some coins in their pockets as they gathered up booty. Heck they even raided each others stashes. Sea captain transporting such, you think he didn't take a little bit for his troubles? All of those because of greed.

KGC or Confederates, gold is money, and money is power. So the group grabs it, and in turn a few of the group sneak a little taste for themselves as it won't be missed, and that little bit more means more power for them. Greed again.

Apache/Aztec, gold was power. Be it monetary or religious. Buy better guns and whiskey, increase your closeness to the Gods by having more of it. So while others have nothing you have it all. All because of greed.

Bigfoot/Aliens, Well from what the ones I know have told me, for Bigfoot more gold means better cable TV and living conditions, the Aliens, they want it for fuel for their craft. Again more for them means more for them. Greedy bass turds they are.

The Government? Like I should have to explain them. They are the worst of the bunch. You think LBJ, and the rest of his gang wanted it so they could share it with the world? If so, I have some ocean front land in Arizona, and a bridge in Brooklyn that I can make you a sweet deal on. Greed at it's worst/best.

Doc and the rest of them? Come on, greed is the only thing that kept them going. Having what no one else did, and by any means.

Greed is what makes the world go round. Anything you want is greed working.

And as for maps, greedy folks aren't about to share. Last thing I would expect is someone making up a map of step by step directions to what is what they think is theirs. Somebody might steal or find it, and then they'll loose their stuff to some greedy person. When's the last time you heard of someone finding a treasure and giving it all away?

And for all of us, why do we search for this stuff? I'm pretty sure if one of us finds the big one, the rest of us will see a share of it just because you are such a nice guy.

Sure the search is exciting, it gets in our blood. But then I think of those who suffered and died for it. Many of those were innocent souls who suffered at the hands of greedy people. When i think about that, to me at least I don't want their blood on my hands. To solve the mystery would be a treasure in itself, but to hold onto it wouldn't be right. All I would be doing is setting myself up for a line of greedy folks wanting what I have. And the greedy circle would start all over again. Couple hundred years from now folks could be searching for the Lost Scarecrow Treasure. Thanks but no thanks, I'll be happy just trying to figure out where it is.

 

[Shortfinger]

Oro, I think you may have something there. After all, the Franciscans were on scene, and would have had a much greater opportunity and an easier time of it.
Please continue.

JB

 

[sdcfia]

SDCFIA,
I don't think Doc was any kind of person that would have been trusted with protecting a treasure of that sort. Also, if he would have been part of a larger group or effort, he would not have been so public about the find. If it were KGC, they would have surreptitiously removed the gold, and nobody would have ever known about it. It would not have wound up on LBJ's Ranch in Texas. Many people scoff at even the notion of the KGC still being in existence. They have had all the time in the world to secretly remove the gold without alerting the US Government.

Ha ha, no, Doc was probably not a man to trust. IMO, he was so public about his "Victorio Peak discovery" because, being a scammer, he wanted the information out there. IMO, even though there was only a staged discovery at VP, Doc was clever enough to convince plenty of folks about the gold. That all ended with Charlie Ryan. With the dust settled, we've heard a lot about Doc from a lot of different people, but we really don't know what his mission was for sure, vis-a-vis the Caballos and Victorio Peak, and likely never will. Doc's descendants can't be relied on to provide much insight about what his biggest secrets were. After all, they weren't there - except for Ova, and she was obviously in the dark too.

People tend to use "KGC" as a label that, historically, includes not only the Civil War secret CSA operatives and their minions up to ca 1910, but also other powerful industrialists, bankers, military folks, upper-echelon "religious" (Mormons? Jesuits?), and other world stage manipulators - probably European based at the top levels. Some say the group is still active today. IMO, most of what we know about the organization in the US is likely disinformation. After all, it's a secret. Noss, if involved, would likely be labeled as a "minion", maybe a true loose cannon, maybe an affected loose cannon. Not a decision maker, but one who followed orders. Same for Douthit.

Good post Mike, and I realize that was addressed to Steve but just want to float one more idea past you.

Why could it not be the Franciscan padres that stashed the bullion? They were definitely involved in mining in NM, and in a fairly large way. We don't hear about them so much, perhaps because they do not exert so much efforts in trying to deny they ever did such things. But the padres mining activities were apparently harsh enough that one of the demands made for the Pueblo Indians to make peace after the 1680 rebellion, was that the priests must restrict their activities to farming, no more mining. During that uprising, the Indians made efforts to conceal a number of mines successfully.

That's very insightful, Oro. The Franciscans were first in the North American game with Marcos de Niza in 1539. He and his radical actions are still shrouded in mystery, suggesting deceptions of some degree in southern NM. The Franciscan and/or Spanish gold and silver mines allegedly worked in the Sangre de Christos and elsewhere in northern NM have become "quiet legends" following the 1680 Revolt, although their richness was reputedly radical. In addition, we have a number of southern CO gold legends that would have been under the Spanish/Franciscan control (if not the French Jesuits). When the Spanish and Franciscans finally returned to NM in 1692 after being run out by the natives, their mining efforts never resumed to any great extent. The whereabouts of all the gold and silver mined prior to 1680 is not well explained. Logistically, the Franciscans would have had easy access to the Caballos, as the site was a stop on the way back to Chihuahua. The Spanish involvement, if any, is unexplained.

Padre LaRue was reportedly a rogue Franciscan, even though his actual presence in NM's Lower Rio Grande Valley in the very late 1700s is disputed. The cloudy links between the alleged LaRue mine, the Caballo/Organ gold, and the Franciscans remain undefined. [I have a working model to explain these links, but I'm still working on it]

 

[Oroblanco]

Good posts.

Really though I do not understand why some are so willing to dismiss the Victorio Peak treasure story, as BS and cover for a Caballos treasure. Remember Lt Swanner, US Army? Heck even a famous lawyer got involved to try to recover what the government stole from Victorio peak. Do we now dismiss Swanner's sworn statement, his carved name inside the cave, as more "cover" by Noss? This makes no sense to me.

 

[mdog]

http://www.bn.gov.ar/descargas/publicaciones/mat/h03.htm