DOC NOSS-Victorio Peak OR The Caballo Mountains

[Oroblanco]

Hi whisky rat, I have covered this before. It was the most convenient way, via El Rio del Norte, to a waiting Jesuit ship for transhipment to Rome. The infrequent Jesuit ship would anchor near Mattamoros.

The Caballos were a depository at aprox. !/3 of the way to Mattamores It was a faster loading and quicker way for the trans shipment to send itt downstream, In the meantime it was a nice quiet storage site...

I have no idea when they started using the Caballos as a storage, previously I had imagined that their method was to send it through the mission sites, which were apox. 1 day apart, and were serviced by Mules and burros.

View attachment 1247094





rome.

Can you post some evidence of any Jesuit ship(s) calling at Matamoros? It certainly does not look "convenient" to me, to ship precious metals from Tayopa, across the Rio del Norte, into the Caballos, then to Matamoros, in fact that looks overly long, complicated and fraught with un-necessary risks, especially when the Jesuits are known to have had their own cargo ship operating in the PACIFIC, that traveled in company with the powerful Manila Galleons for mutual protection. Thanks in advance.
Oroblanco

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Oro, actually time and axpense wise, it was far quicker - on the trip -to go by way of the Rio del Norte A little jog to the north saved days, or weeks, on the trip. For a waiting ship, it was far quicker to load without an enormus no. of animals.

The Jesuitswere not fools, they were known for their intelligence.

Tasters Choice instant this morning - got up too late for sock coffee

P.S. NP's lil map confirms it. It was a Jesuit operation

 

[sdcfia]

Can you post some evidence of any Jesuit ship(s) calling at Matamoros? It certainly does not look "convenient" to me, to ship precious metals from Tayopa, across the Rio del Norte, into the Caballos, then to Matamoros, in fact that looks overly long, complicated and fraught with un-necessary risks, especially when the Jesuits are known to have had their own cargo ship operating in the PACIFIC, that traveled in company with the powerful Manila Galleons for mutual protection. Thanks in advance.
Oroblanco

Right, Oro. Besides, if the Jesuits had wanted to use the Rio Grande to ship contraband (by no means demonstrated, but mentioned here merely for the sake of argument), it would have been much easier for them to move east from Chihuahua to the river (not north), and greatly shorten their route to the Gulf. By intercepting the Rio Grande further south, they could have avoided the Spanish and Franciscan strongholds on the trail through Janos to the Camino Real - then later, downriver through Paso del Norte - not to mention the Apaches, who generally controlled the region. I posted a map that illustrates this a couple times in previous posts.

Don Jose, this theory looks like a discarded refrigerator at a shooting range. Please provide some evidence other than NP's "miracle map" to support it.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

SDC, you are correct in some things. You neglected a depositry for safe keeping while waiting for an infrequent Jesuit ship.

They 'did move east" from Chihuahua city to the fords on the 'upper' Rio Del Norte. Then North to the Caballos., remember there is a series of N/S mountains ranges between Chih, and the Rio.They could not go in a straight line.

Show me where NP's lil map is at fault? It shows mines that were Jesuit, and secret and is in conformity with the terrain. This has been clarified and explained in other posts.

Explain where the varous bars came from, in the Caballos and Victoria peak, and in such quantity, and the fact that the majority were "Dore" bars.. .If they were legitiment, they would have been refined.

we are speaking of a page in History which was deliberty hidden at the time and also rerouted in the Vatican files.so that nothing is deliberately visable today. Tayopa is carefully omited, both in the files and the Mining office, yet It has been found, Who owned and operated it? And why was it kept a secret ?
And on ---- your choice my friend or

P.S. Oro de Tayopa would you want such a public operation as the Manilla Galleons ?? Also the cargo would have to circumnavigate the world, if transported from the Pacific? It would be far, far quicker to simply cross the Atlantic.

 

[prospecter77]

It know that there are 640,000.000 metric tons stored in the Philippines , there is Still 100 + metric in Vittorio Peak if Branson didn't get it when he put in his power system in at the sky port , there is another 70 metric tons in the Cabrillos , 20 metric tons at another place in NM , the one in Cuba NM has been removed and sold by the land owner , The pack trains , 1000 Mules 220 lbs each , There are many cashing spots all along the way , it was a relay system never stopping , The Alamo and the Spanish , American war was fought for this gold , Ever wonder why we ended up in Vietnam , same Gold Same people Burying it , They also lived here in Texas , San Antonio area to Matamoras Bay , They Set up there Governorship In Santa Fe and Mantua , or Manitou Colorado , the Main mines in the North was White Marble Halls in the Sangre De Christos , Bacas' Osso in the Winminughe Wilderness in Colorado , Golden Fleece near Silverton Colo. the Josephine at Rico Colorado , the Idaho in Colorado . the mines of the north, and one more On Baldy also in the Sangre De Christos' .

 

[sdcfia]

SDC, you are correct in some things. You neglected a depositry for safe keeping while waiting for an infrequent Jesuit ship.

They 'did move east" from Chihuahua city to the fords on the 'upper' Rio Del Norte. Then North to the Caballos., remember there is a series of N/S mountains ranges between Chih, and the Rio.They could not go in a straight line.

Show me where NP's lil map is at fault? It shows mines that were Jesuit, and secret and is in conformity with the terrain. This has been clarified and explained in other posts.

Explain where the varous bars came frorm, in the Caballos and Victoria peak, and in such quantity, and the fact that the majority were "Dore" bars.. .If they were legitiment, they would have been refined.

we are speaking of a page in History which was deliberty hidden at the time and also rerouted in the Vatican files.so that nothing is deliberately visable today. Tayopa is carefully omited, both in the files and the Mining office, yet It has been found, Who owned and operated it? And why was it kept a secret ?
And on ---- your choice my friend or

P.S. Oro de Tayopa would you want such a public operation as the Manilla Galleons ?? Also the cargo would have to circumnavigate the world, if transported from the Pacific? It would be far, far quicker to simply cross the Atlantic.

Don Jose, you have claimed in the past that the only way for this scheme to work, the Jesuits bribed not only the Spanish authorities (presumably at Janos and Paso del Norte for starters), but also the Franciscan Order (who helped settle and had dominated New Mexico and the Camino Real since the 16th century), and also the Apaches (who were blood enemies with all Spanish, Mexicans and clergy - and in lieu of bribery chump change, likely could have stolen the metal, killed the men and eaten the livestock). You say the information is secretly hidden in Vatican City, but what about the Crown's people in Apacheria, the Apache's own history, traditions of Mexican families along the river, etc.? All those pack trains, for all those years, all the boats on the river passing through Paso del Norte. Did everyone in the region for years get paid to keep quiet? Do you have any way of verifying your allegations?

Why not a depository in NE Mexico, say at Big Bend, where logistics would eliminate the problems listed above? Are you saying that there are no secure hiding places there? How could a depository in the Caballos - the heart of Apacheria, smack-dab on the Camino Real - be considered "safe keeping"?

NP's map could have been reverse engineered by anyone with the information (speculation) implied on it. After all, the map "surfaced" for us only last year. Are you claiming that this information was unknown? When NP provides provenance for the chart, only then can it be seriously considered.

The only evidence of bullion bars allegedly recovered during the "Noss/Douthit era" from the Caballo Mountains/Victorio Peak theatre in New Mexico are the Noss assays as revealed in the Gold House Book 1. As you know, those bars - which I suspect were recovered from the Caballos - were about 80% copper by weight and also included a couple-three ounces of gold and other impurities. As I pointed out earlier, these assays tally quite well with the earliest ore mined at the famous Santa Rita del Cobre mine (sixty miles east of the Caballos): high grade copper with enough gold to pay for shipment to the Chihuahua refinery. How this bullion may have ended up in the Caballos, I don't know, but the ore matches later recoveries and the mine is reasonably close by. So it's not a long shot by any means and is a viable explanation by anybody's standards. All other bullion recovery in the 1920s-1940s in this part of New Mexico are speculative and totally unsupported by any facts.

I don't know what you've found in Mexico, but whatever it is, you haven't made a convincing case yet that it was moved through the Caballo Mountains in New Mexico.

 

[Oroblanco]

SDC, you are correct in some things. You neglected a depositry for safe keeping while waiting for an infrequent Jesuit ship.

They 'did move east" from Chihuahua city to the fords on the 'upper' Rio Del Norte. Then North to the Caballos., remember there is a series of N/S mountains ranges between Chih, and the Rio.They could not go in a straight line.

Show me where NP's lil map is at fault? It shows mines that were Jesuit, and secret and is in conformity with the terrain. This has been clarified and explained in other posts.

Explain where the varous bars came frorm, in the Caballos and Victoria peak, and in such quantity, and the fact that the majority were "Dore" bars.. .If they were legitiment, they would have been refined.

we are speaking of a page in History which was deliberty hidden at the time and also rerouted in the Vatican files.so that nothing is deliberately visable today. Tayopa is carefully omited, both in the files and the Mining office, yet It has been found, Who owned and operated it? And why was it kept a secret ?
And on ---- your choice my friend or

P.S. Oro de Tayopa would you want such a public operation as the Manilla Galleons ?? Also the cargo would have to circumnavigate the world, if transported from the Pacific? It would be far, far quicker to simply cross the Atlantic.

First off, have to say BINGO to Steve's post, viz the many problems and risks involved, as well as with the provenance of NP's "lil map" Heck NP may not know the origins of that map himself!

And YES, absolutely! It made far more sense to ship via the Pacific, to the Philippines where the Jesuits had a large operation, and remember that one whole province of Mexico had missions assigned to generate profits that would then be used to support their operations in JAPAN! Even Kino's various explorations in California and AZ were to establish communications with California, so that bases (ports) could be established and maintained to support the Manila Galleons, and coincidently the Jesuit ships that was traveling right along with them! Yes it was longer in miles, but FAR safer for them, and hardly raised an eyebrow of a Spanish authority or Franciscan competitor.

If you read through that long debate on the Jesuits, you will find confirmation that the Jesuits had their own ship operating for over a century, on the WEST coast of Mexico, shipping across the PACIFIC. Very few, if any Jesuit ships crossed the Atlantic route, for obvious reasons - it would have to pass under the eyes of Spanish royal authorities and competing Orders. There was no need to run the risks of trying to haul massive treasures that far north, down the Rio Grande, through the ports of the Caribbean where the Spanish treasure fleets were operating. As you pointed out, there were not stupid! And for the record, the Jesuits had their own ship, they did not need to load any goods on the Manila galleons specifically, although they certainly did as is attested in the records of their Baja missions.

IF your new theory has the treasures of Tayopa stored in the Caballos, then why did Henry O. Flipper find that famous Tayopa Inventory? There was no need for an inventory that was no longer there, right? I would say that based on the only known evidence, the treasure of Tayopa is still sitting there - stored in some underground chamber, room or vault, or perhaps a mine tunnel that is caved in, hence the need to have a written inventory of it, for when it is retrieved. Or does it make more sense to you, that they would have packed it all up, shipped it WAY north into extremely dangerous territory (and legally, within the Franciscan domain) to then run yet more risks of loss down the Rio Grande, perhaps to be intercepted at the port by Spanish authorities whom would certainly demand their Royal Fifth? I do not know why this idea strikes you as making SO much sense, when the alternative, supported by at least one document and certainly by the legends surrounding Tayopa, point to that treasure still being at Tayopa!

Good luck and good hunting amigos, have been trying to keep out of this thread but can not figure out why my partner Real de Tayopa seems so enamored of this Caballos-Tayopa theory which to me makes no sense at all and is not supported by anything. NO offense intended to NP, but without knowing the true origins of that map of his, it could very well be a reverse-engineered map, perhaps using the very information posted previously over the past few years by Real de Tayopa himself! I don't like being the wet blanket here but really, I hope you will reconsider this theory.

Please do continue.

 

[prospecter77]

There is no dough that Tayopa gold was stored in the Caballos , A house of Hapsburg sword was found there , these are the same miners and families , and the Jesuits and the Crown were one in the same in this time period , My family was part of this group and lived in Texas during this whole time period , they were forced out during the Spanish , American war , we retained our property in Texas but lost everything in New Mexico and Colorado . Before the Revolt in 1680 Gold was moved South . They were in Colombia , Cacaux , in 1840 , They had Ships and they used them well , The Texas area must have an enormous warehouse also , Port La Vaca , Vittorio Bay , Were my families first home in Texas . All these Cashes are marked by the same system , squares , + symbols , Hearts, windows , Triangulation .
Some reading on Padre Island , shows ships were traveling North along the Texas coast .

 

[sdcfia]

There is no dough that Tayopa gold was stored in the Caballos , A house of Hapsburg sword was found there , these are the same miners and families , and the Jesuits and the Crown were one in the same in this time period , My family was part of this group and lived in Texas during this whole time period , they were forced out during the Spanish , American war , we retained our property in Texas but lost everything in New Mexico and Colorado . Before the Revolt in 1680 Gold was moved South . They were in Colombia , Cacaux , in 1840 , They had Ships and they used them well , The Texas area must have an enormous warehouse also , Port La Vaca , Vittorio Bay , Were my families first home in Texas . All these Cashes are marked by the same system , squares , + symbols , Hearts, windows , Triangulation .
Some reading on Padre Island , shows ships were traveling North along the Texas coast .

I agree that it makes more sense that caches in the Caballos prior to 1680 were more likely to have come from the north, not the south.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Sdc: Tayopa was in production in the early 1500's Ceased about 1530 due to the Apache raids.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Morning SDC, coffee ? cool this morning.

First, copper and other base metals mixed with the gold were / are a common occurance n fact I could say that all mine run bars are alloyed wth other metals.

Second, can the production of that mine possibly acount for the no. of bars found ?? (reported )

Third, NP's lil map IS accurate since it names the mines etc, in proper sequencw, a fact that wasn't inown until I published it, and others that still aren't publically known. The trade route wasn't well known today..I doubt that it was reverse engieered. Also the snake looking object was always associated with the Jesuits- see picture posted.

There is no way that the no of bars -dore' -can be accounted for in that period, except from Sonora Chiuaha etc. and from clandestine mines - Jesuit ??


The Jesuits had a way to cover up the shipmentts from the Caballos, I don't know if it was pure bribery - for which the Jesuitss were famouc for - or ? That information is hidden, along with much others, in the Jesuit past.

As for the charts, we will only know if any more bars are recovered., which would secure it.

The fact that they were Dore; bars renforces the fact that they were clandestine, since all legitment mines had their bars refined in Mexico city during that period.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Oro, I might modify my statement that it was being shipped to Rome, perhaps it was being stored for their projected / intended take over of North America, in which case it was closer to the center of operation.

As for flipper, he was only mildly interested in Tayopa for his employer, Greene.

Tayopa has it's own depost. I have posted a map to that in here.

 

[sdcfia]

Morning SDC, coffee ? cool this morning.

First, copper and other base metals mixed with the gold were / are a common occurance n fact I could say that all mine run bars are alloyed wth other metals.

Second, can the production of that mine possibly acount for the no. of bars found ?? (reported )

Third, NP's lil map IS accurate since it names the mines etc, in proper sequencw, a fact that wasn't inown until I published it, and others that still aren't publically known. The trade route wasn't well known today..I doubt that it was reverse engieered. Also the snake looking object was always associated with the Jesuits- see picture posted.

There is no way that the no of bars -dore' -can be accounted for in that period, except from Sonora Chiuaha etc. and from clandestine mines - Jesuit ??


The Jesuits had a way to cover up the shipmentts from the Caballos, I don't know if it was pure bribery - for which the Jesuitss were famouc for - or ? That information is hidden, along with much others, in the Jesuit past.

As for the charts, we will only know if any more bars are recovered., which would secure it.

The fact that they were Dore; bars renforces the fact that they were clandestine, since all legitment mines had their bars refined in Mexico city during that period.

View attachment 1247634

The amount of copper shipped annually by mule caravan from Santa Rita del Cobre to Chihuahua is generally reported as six million pounds per year, beginning ca 1800, a number I personally feel is probably overstated. Let's say it's a quarter of that amount to be ultra-conservative. That would amount to 1,500,000 / 40 = 37,000 bars per year, if not more. It's not hard to imagine that a large number of copper bars - each containing a few ounces of gold - could have ended up in the Caballo Range.

NP's map could probably be interpreted in a number of ways, conventionally, speculatively and radically, depending on how the map's creator wished to spin it. How about this one: "Former Aztec gold and silver mines, including one called "Tayopa", were located and stripped of their hidden caches in 1861 by the Knights of the Golden Circle, under the command of Edgar Alan Poe. The plunder was relocated to the Caballo Range in New Mexico, and control transferred to CSA General Henry Sibley." See? No proof, but enough verifiable history mixed with unverified claims to spawn a great conspiracy theory - just like the Jesuit theory.

By the way, that Bishop's crosier you posted implies "Jesuit", I guess, but if you look closer at NP's map, you'll note that what's actually depicted is a snake such as that being held by Huitzilopochtli, the Aztec war god and patron of Tenotchtitlan.

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos;
At the risk of running entirely off the rails (topic-wise) have to add a bit more.

First, until and unless someone finds, retrieves and shares the information on a stash of treasure hidden in the Caballos, all of this debate on its ORIGINS is pure speculation.

Second - Real de Tayopa wrote:

Tatopa was in production in the early 1500's Ceased about 1530 due to the Apache raids

Did you make a typo there amigo? As far as I could determine, Tayopa was first discovered in 1602 by two men whom accompanied Captain Hurdaide's punitive expedition into that country. I have never seen any reference to Tayopa prior to that date, nor any mention of its discovery being older than 1602-3.

　
Next -TIMELINE. Think about that - it was mentioned that a Hapsburg sword was found among the treasure in Victorio peak - the Habsburgs only involvement in Mexico dates to the 1860s, Emperor Maximilian. At that time the Jesuits were hardly active in Mexico. Also what on Earth would Jesuits be doing with an Imperial sword in the first place? Remember the Jesuits got run out in 1767, Maximilian arrived in Mexico in 1864.

　
Don Jose bless you amigo, but you, yourself posted virtually all of the information found on NP's "lil map" and have even just mentioned that you published it on these forums. NP may not even know the origins of that map, it could very well be something reverse-engineered, using YOUR own information to create. Anyone that has followed your posts over the years could have made it fairly easily.

　
Now on the Source of the proposed treasure of the Caballos - I have to respectfully disagree that the ONLY possible source for the treasure would have been Tayopa. Remember a French explorer that reached New Mexico, wrote that there were then (1600s) SO many silver mines that a great many were laying idle, for lack of a market for the silver! The news of the terrific silver strikes in NM in the 1600s reached all the way to Canada and the court of the king of France. Records from prior to the 1680 Pueblo rebellion were almost entirely destroyed, but pack trains of silver were shipped SOUTH from NM into Mexico for decades, and those Spanish treasure fleets were not ONLY loaded with gold and silver from Tayopa. Now remember that the Vic peak treasure MAY date to the 1860s, and many other precious metal production areas had come into being, including the fabulous mines of Parral in Chihuahua for one example of many. Now add in the story of Padre LaRue and his gold mine - are you willing to dismiss that story out of hand, as IMPOSSIBLE to be the true source of any treasure found in the Caballos? Not to diminish Tayopa in any way, but really it is hardly the ONLY possible, and certainly not the most logical source for a Caballo treasure.

　
Real de Tayopa, you avoided the point about Flipper and that Tayopa inventory. The point is that IF the treasures of Tayopa were getting shipped way up north, into the heart of hostile Apache country, and in the Franciscans domain (religious boundaries for the Orders) then that Tayopa inventory should not exist for Flipper to have found it. The fact that he DID indicates that treasure was being massed and stored AT TAYOPA, hence the NEED for an inventory of it, so that when it was to be retrieved, a checklist (so to speak) could be done to determine if anyone had stolen or otherwise lost any part of it. I see no reason to suspect that inventory was moved at all, ever. IF it were, then that inventory document should have been destroyed and not preserved.

　
In fact from the Jesuits own letters (private) it becomes readily apparent that thieving was a known problem, <even within their own Order> that they were well aware of their "enemies" looking for anything to blacken their names and reputations, and it would make perfect sense for any large treasure to be safely hidden and stored AT a Jesuit mission location or perhaps a college (less likely there, as too many Spaniards visited them) where "their" Indians could keep watch and protect the valuables. I propose that is exactly what occurred at Tayopa, hence that fascinating inventory found by Flipper. Remember what occurred at San Xavier del Bac - an impressive silver treasure was seen by many visitors, only to be hidden away, brought out again when the Jesuits returned, then hidden away again during the Civil war and lost from then on. The Indians themselves were being entrusted to keep and protect that treasure! I see no reason to think that it would have been any different at Tayopa, which had (if memory serves) a number of Opata Indians among the people living there, whom were considered highly trustworthy and faithful to the Jesuits.

　
Sorry if my disbelief in this theory (and the 'Lil map') bothers you amigo, no offense intended just that I fail to see what is so compelling about it. In fact to me it appears that this theory is highly unlikely and illogical in the extreme. Can you provide any evidence of any other Jesuit treasure being stored in the domain of the Franciscans, their greatest competitors? Remember they were not all that friendly to each other (as Orders) and there is clear jealousy between them.

　
Now toss in that Hapsburg sword, which would almost certainly date to the time of the Second Empire (1864-67 a century after the Jesuits were expelled) AND that the Emperor made some effort to ship the treasury of the state along with his own personal fortune out of the country, meaning that Vic peak treasure could have originated with Maximilian. That sword should not be among the things found, IF that treasure <Vic peak> came from Tayopa. I see no reason to think the Caballos treasure must then have come from Tayopa, so far away and with so many issues.

Apologies again for the heading-off-into-the-weeds post, and for being so long winded. I remain respectfully unconvinced about this Tayopa=>Caballos theory, as I do for the Lost Adams=>Tayopa theory. Perhaps when someone discovers and brings to light a treasure in the Caballos, we may settle this question absolutely. Wishing you and everyone a very Merry Christmas, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Shortfinger]

I'm going to chime in here with a question. It may have been answered before in this thread, but I haven't come across the answer. On NP's map, that Don Jose is using to suggest that Victorio Peak/Caballos were being used to store the output from several Mexican mines, including Tayopa, it shows a number of mines listed, with an arrow going North. According to Don Jose, those mines are listed in the correct geographical order. My question is, are they chronologically correct? Were all of the mines known and producing at the same time, or were one or more of them from a different time frame?

JB

 

[sdcfia]

First, until and unless someone finds, retrieves and shares the information on a stash of treasure hidden in the Caballos, all of this debate on its ORIGINS is pure speculation.

<cut>
Oroblanco

You are absolutely correct, Oro. As much as I would love to embrace the Caballo Range/Victorio Peak legends, even I am forced to acknowledge that the only hard evidence we can all agree on seems to be the "pig iron bars" that the Nosses had assayed. I suspect that these "gold bars" (actually copper bars containing only a couple ounces of gold each) were found in the Caballos during the Noss/Douthit days and used to prop up the Noss allegations at Victorio Peak. These bars seem to be the only verified bullion recovered in the region ca 1920s-1940s. I know that Mike vehemently alleges that Douthit possessed refined gold bars, but I've seen nothing but circumstantial evidence (Willie's lifestyle) to support those claims. Reading between the lines in Willie's book, it seems to me that there's a weird back story that may answer a lot of questions if we could figure out what he was driving at. [What may or may not have happened at Victorio Peak in the 1960s is another story, IMO.]

More to the point, if there were (are) large caches in the Caballos, I agree with you that they could have originated from a number of possible sources, none of which are yet supported with evidence. My personal working model leans toward French involvement, as you hinted at. Ironically, if that turned up as a source, it may well involve the Jesuits, but the French brothers from the north, not the Spanish from Mexico.

 

[gollum]

Hola amigos;
At the risk of running entirely off the rails (topic-wise) have to add a bit more.

First, until and unless someone finds, retrieves and shares the information on a stash of treasure hidden in the Caballos, all of this debate on its ORIGINS is pure speculation.

Second - Real de Tayopa wrote:


Did you make a typo there amigo? As far as I could determine, Tayopa was first discovered in 1602 by two men whom accompanied Captain Hurdaide's punitive expedition into that country. I have never seen any reference to Tayopa prior to that date, nor any mention of its discovery being older than 1602-3.

　
Next -TIMELINE. Think about that - it was mentioned that a Hapsburg sword was found among the treasure in Victorio peak - the Habsburgs only involvement in Mexico dates to the 1860s, Emperor Maximilian. At that time the Jesuits were hardly active in Mexico. Also what on Earth would Jesuits be doing with an Imperial sword in the first place? Remember the Jesuits got run out in 1767, Maximilian arrived in Mexico in 1864.

　
Don Jose bless you amigo, but you, yourself posted virtually all of the information found on NP's "lil map" and have even just mentioned that you published it on these forums. NP may not even know the origins of that map, it could very well be something reverse-engineered, using YOUR own information to create. Anyone that has followed your posts over the years could have made it fairly easily.

　
Now on the Source of the proposed treasure of the Caballos - I have to respectfully disagree that the ONLY possible source for the treasure would have been Tayopa. Remember a French explorer that reached New Mexico, wrote that there were then (1600s) SO many silver mines that a great many were laying idle, for lack of a market for the silver! The news of the terrific silver strikes in NM in the 1600s reached all the way to Canada and the court of the king of France. Records from prior to the 1680 Pueblo rebellion were almost entirely destroyed, but pack trains of silver were shipped SOUTH from NM into Mexico for decades, and those Spanish treasure fleets were not ONLY loaded with gold and silver from Tayopa. Now remember that the Vic peak treasure MAY date to the 1860s, and many other precious metal production areas had come into being, including the fabulous mines of Parral in Chihuahua for one example of many. Now add in the story of Padre LaRue and his gold mine - are you willing to dismiss that story out of hand, as IMPOSSIBLE to be the true source of any treasure found in the Caballos? Not to diminish Tayopa in any way, but really it is hardly the ONLY possible, and certainly not the most logical source for a Caballo treasure.

　
Real de Tayopa, you avoided the point about Flipper and that Tayopa inventory. The point is that IF the treasures of Tayopa were getting shipped way up north, into the heart of hostile Apache country, and in the Franciscans domain (religious boundaries for the Orders) then that Tayopa inventory should not exist for Flipper to have found it. The fact that he DID indicates that treasure was being massed and stored AT TAYOPA, hence the NEED for an inventory of it, so that when it was to be retrieved, a checklist (so to speak) could be done to determine if anyone had stolen or otherwise lost any part of it. I see no reason to suspect that inventory was moved at all, ever. IF it were, then that inventory document should have been destroyed and not preserved.

　
In fact from the Jesuits own letters (private) it becomes readily apparent that thieving was a known problem, <even within their own Order> that they were well aware of their "enemies" looking for anything to blacken their names and reputations, and it would make perfect sense for any large treasure to be safely hidden and stored AT a Jesuit mission location or perhaps a college (less likely there, as too many Spaniards visited them) where "their" Indians could keep watch and protect the valuables. I propose that is exactly what occurred at Tayopa, hence that fascinating inventory found by Flipper. Remember what occurred at San Xavier del Bac - an impressive silver treasure was seen by many visitors, only to be hidden away, brought out again when the Jesuits returned, then hidden away again during the Civil war and lost from then on. The Indians themselves were being entrusted to keep and protect that treasure! I see no reason to think that it would have been any different at Tayopa, which had (if memory serves) a number of Opata Indians among the people living there, whom were considered highly trustworthy and faithful to the Jesuits.

　
Sorry if my disbelief in this theory (and the 'Lil map') bothers you amigo, no offense intended just that I fail to see what is so compelling about it. In fact to me it appears that this theory is highly unlikely and illogical in the extreme. Can you provide any evidence of any other Jesuit treasure being stored in the domain of the Franciscans, their greatest competitors? Remember they were not all that friendly to each other (as Orders) and there is clear jealousy between them.

　
Now toss in that Hapsburg sword, which would almost certainly date to the time of the Second Empire (1864-67 a century after the Jesuits were expelled) AND that the Emperor made some effort to ship the treasury of the state along with his own personal fortune out of the country, meaning that Vic peak treasure could have originated with Maximilian. That sword should not be among the things found, IF that treasure <Vic peak> came from Tayopa. I see no reason to think the Caballos treasure must then have come from Tayopa, so far away and with so many issues.

Apologies again for the heading-off-into-the-weeds post, and for being so long winded. I remain respectfully unconvinced about this Tayopa=>Caballos theory, as I do for the Lost Adams=>Tayopa theory. Perhaps when someone discovers and brings to light a treasure in the Caballos, we may settle this question absolutely. Wishing you and everyone a very Merry Christmas, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

Roy,

Don't discount that idea just yet. Flipper's Inventory may have been an inventory conducted when they had to hide the mines, so they would know what they had to recover, having nothing to do with their regular shipments. I like the map, but remember that if the Jesuits were transporting bullion/ore North, they wouldn't be sending a mule train out every week. My guess is that they would have had the mule trains on a regular schedule. Something that was large enough to carry what they needed to move, but small enough (or by a route desolate enough) not to be easily seen. Anything over what their mules could carry, had to stay in storage till the next mule train. Just look at the mission records. The Jesuits detailed every item in every mission.

The map tells me that the mule trains started at Tayopa, and used the same route North every time. Representatives (loaded mules) from each mine would attach themselves to the Tayopa Train along the route.

Shortfinger,

Some of those mines are still working mines. A couple I was not able to find, and the rest are historical in nature (and a lot of that history is a little murky). Exact dates are hard to place. Even the very existence of Tayopa, the largest and most famous of them all is still in dispute. Many historical mines are only known about from mentions in other documents and journals. That, plus several spellings and misspellings of the names of the mines can lead to confusion (Teopari, Toyopa, Tayopas, Tayopa, Topari, etc).

Mike

 

[Shortfinger]

Roy,

Don't discount that idea just yet. Flipper's Inventory may have been an inventory conducted when they had to hide the mines, so they would know what they had to recover, having nothing to do with their regular shipments. I like the map, but remember that if the Jesuits were transporting bullion/ore North, they wouldn't be sending a mule train out every week. My guess is that they would have had the mule trains on a regular schedule. Something that was large enough to carry what they needed to move, but small enough (or by a route desolate enough) not to be easily seen. Anything over what their mules could carry, had to stay in storage till the next mule train. Just look at the mission records. The Jesuits detailed every item in every mission.

The map tells me that the mule trains started at Tayopa, and used the same route North every time. Representatives (loaded mules) from each mine would attach themselves to the Tayopa Train along the route.

Shortfinger,

Some of those mines are still working mines. A couple I was not able to find, and the rest are historical in nature (and a lot of that history is a little murky). Exact dates are hard to place. Even the very existence of Tayopa, the largest and most famous of them all is still in dispute. Many historical mines are only known about from mentions in other documents and journals. That, plus several spellings and misspellings of the names of the mines can lead to confusion (Teopari, Toyopa, Tayopas, Tayopa, Topari, etc).

Mike

Agreed, that is why I asked the question. For example, Tayopa itself has a very narrow window of time during which it was operated under that name. So, if the others were not contemporary with Tayopa, then that would suggest that the map had been reverse engineered, as suggested as a possibility by Oro.......

JB

 

[sdcfia]

Oro, I might modify my statement that it was being shipped to Rome, perhaps it was being stored for their projected / intended take over of North America, in which case it was closer to the center of operation.

Gosh, Don Jose - if I didn't know any better, I'd wonder if you haven't strayed into the KGC camp! Your mention of the Hapsburg sword (an obvious in-your-face message when announced); your mention of the funding for a continental takeover. Have you drank the Kool-Aid?

 

[Oroblanco]

Gollum wrote

Roy,

Don't discount that idea just yet. Flipper's Inventory may have been an inventory conducted when they had to hide the mines, so they would know what they had to recover, having nothing to do with their regular shipments. I like the map, but remember that if the Jesuits were transporting bullion/ore North, they wouldn't be sending a mule train out every week. My guess is that they would have had the mule trains on a regular schedule. Something that was large enough to carry what they needed to move, but small enough (or by a route desolate enough) not to be easily seen. Anything over what their mules could carry, had to stay in storage till the next mule train. Just look at the mission records. The Jesuits detailed every item in every mission.

The map tells me that the mule trains started at Tayopa, and used the same route North every time. Representatives (loaded mules) from each mine would attach themselves to the Tayopa Train along the route.

Shortfinger,

Some of those mines are still working mines. A couple I was not able to find, and the rest are historical in nature (and a lot of that history is a little murky). Exact dates are hard to place. Even the very existence of Tayopa, the largest and most famous of them all is still in dispute. Many historical mines are only known about from mentions in other documents and journals. That, plus several spellings and misspellings of the names of the mines can lead to confusion (Teopari, Toyopa, Tayopas, Tayopa, Topari, etc).

Mike

Well reports from the 1602 Hurdaide punitive expedition, into the very region where Don Jose found his Tayopa, there is a mention of the discovery of rich silver deposits, and indications of gold, although not providing any NAME for it, and by 1604 we have a letter mentioning the then-recent discovery of Tayopa mines as named in 1602 by two men, not naming the Hurdaide expedition but there is no record of any other expedition into that region in 1602. There is also some indication that some kind of debate over which Order should have Tayopa, as the Franciscans are definitely involved at one point, then it is Jesuits from then on. Teopira also has a somewhat similar 'struggle' for it started as Franciscan, became Jesuit, and ended as Franciscan. Topia is an entirely different story and location, being located in central Mexico; although this was claimed to have been found and re-opened, no one ever reported finding emeralds there so it remains doubtful whether they really found Topia.

There may still be people that dispute whether Tayopa ever existed but it is documented. It appears that the Tayopa of Don Jose, and not the other three (or four, if we count that single mine also called that name) was abandoned by 1686. The second Tayopa seems to originate around 1700, and the last Tayopa is last recorded as having any population at all in the 1786 report. By 1800 it *(Teopira)* was also abandoned due to constant harrassment and attacks by Apaches. Still far too early to be linked with anything dating to the 1860s. Huge hole in the time line there.

Also, if you look at that "Lil Map" it looks to me like a map depicting the collection routes from the distant mines/origination points, following and collecting into a central 'stream' route that then leads off the SE corner. Not one that originates in Tayopa and then marches ACROSS a main route leading away, to end up in an un-named mountain chain off to the NE. It makes no sense to haul treasure from Tayopa, all that way to end up in a remote and dangerous place in Apacheria, as well as being in the domain of the Franciscans. Like the branches of a stream, draining to one point, not criss-crossed and moving treasure from one remote location to one even worse.

I don't discount this theory 100%, but to me it is very far from convincing, and looks highly illogical. I don't see why we should put too much reliance on the "Lil map" since NP himself can not tell us the origins of it.

SDCFIA - it was Prospector77 that mentioned a Hapsburg sword, not Real de Tayopa, and I repeated it. IF the sword was found and was really a Hapsburg sword, it would be pointing very much away from 1767 and the Jesuits, more to the Austrian born emperor of Mexico and his French allies under Napoleon III. Napoleon had a lot of interest in the mines of Mexico and made some effort to get them under his control and producing. However there really was French and French Jesuit interest in New Mexican silver, and at least two attempts were made to reach the area from Canada, one successfully. I do NOT discount the French at all concerning the Caballos and/or Vic peak.