DOC NOSS-Victorio Peak OR The Caballo Mountains

sdcfia said:
Ha ha, no, Doc was probably not a man to trust. IMO, he was so public about his "Victorio Peak discovery" because, being a scammer, he wanted the information out there. IMO, even though there was only a staged discovery at VP, Doc was clever enough to convince plenty of folks about the gold. That all ended with Charlie Ryan. With the dust settled, we've heard a lot about Doc from a lot of different people, but we really don't know what his mission was for sure, vis-a-vis the Caballos and Victorio Peak, and likely never will. Doc's descendants can't be relied on to provide much insight about what his biggest secrets were. After all, they weren't there - except for Ova, and she was obviously in the dark too.

People tend to use "KGC" as a label that, historically, includes not only the Civil War secret CSA operatives and their minions up to ca 1910, but also other powerful industrialists, bankers, military folks, upper-echelon "religious" (Mormons? Jesuits?), and other world stage manipulators - probably European based at the top levels. Some say the group is still active today. IMO, most of what we know about the organization in the US is likely disinformation. After all, it's a secret. Noss, if involved, would likely be labeled as a "minion", maybe a true loose cannon, maybe an affected loose cannon. Not a decision maker, but one who followed orders. Same for Douthit.



That's very insightful, Oro. The Franciscans were first in the North American game with Marcos de Niza in 1539. He and his radical actions are still shrouded in mystery, suggesting deceptions of some degree in southern NM. The Franciscan and/or Spanish gold and silver mines allegedly worked in the Sangre de Christos and elsewhere in northern NM have become "quiet legends" following the 1680 Revolt, although their richness was reputedly radical. In addition, we have a number of southern CO gold legends that would have been under the Spanish/Franciscan control (if not the French Jesuits). When the Spanish and Franciscans finally returned to NM in 1692 after being run out by the natives, their mining efforts never resumed to any great extent. The whereabouts of all the gold and silver mined prior to 1680 is not well explained. Logistically, the Franciscans would have had easy access to the Caballos, as the site was a stop on the way back to Chihuahua. The Spanish involvement, if any, is unexplained.

Padre LaRue was reportedly a rogue Franciscan, even though his actual presence in NM's Lower Rio Grande Valley in the very late 1700s is disputed. The cloudy links between the alleged LaRue mine, the Caballo/Organ gold, and the Franciscans remain undefined. [I have a working model to explain these links, but I'm still working on it]
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Buddy, I guess we will have to agree to disagree on Doc Noss. There was absolutely a treasure under Victorio Peak. NO WAY Doc could have hauled in excess of 300 bars from the Caballos to VP, stash them in the caves, then haul them up to the surface? No way. Besides Bennie Samaniego was given a bar and the famous Suit of Armor. Doc told him to tell people whenever they asked, that they came from a cave in the Caballos (not The San Andres). If the bars actually did come from the Caballos, why in God's Name would he be sending people to look in the very place they came from? Doesn't make a bit of sense. Then, we have the testimony of Capt. William "Orby" Swanner. He swore that he personally witnessed the US Government flatbed approximately ninety-three million troy ounces of gold from under VP. When he told his story to the Noss Family, the Government went to great lengths to impugn his character. They went as far as to say he was never even there. In reply, Swanner told the Noss's that if they ever gained access to the lower caverns, they would find his name sooted onto one of the walls (he used a carbon arc lantern). When the Noss's did get there, they found "ORBY SWANNER 7 Oct 1961 US ARMY 02206135 CAPT" exactly where Capt Swanner told them it would be.

I personally believe that Doc found a treasure under VP just like he said he did. Once he got burned when he tried to legally claim the area and again when he took bars to the mint in 1939 (I believe), he went looking for Willie's Cave. He may have found either that or a different treasure cave in the Caballos.

Mike
 

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Oroblanco said:
Good posts.

Really though I do not understand why some are so willing to dismiss the Victorio Peak treasure story, as BS and cover for a Caballos treasure. Remember Lt Swanner, US Army? Heck even a famous lawyer got involved to try to recover what the government stole from Victorio peak. Do we now dismiss Swanner's sworn statement, his carved name inside the cave, as more "cover" by Noss? This makes no sense to me.

:coffee2: :coffee2:
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Oro, some extensive discussions explored this point of contention during the past year or two in this thread and others. Most of the devil's advocate arguments were mine, and most of the apologist's material was posted by Mike. I don't wish to revisit all the details again, even though I maintain my doubts - at least for now. You can look at those well-argued (IMO) posts if you're interested. Of course, my opinions could change, and I must say that I was hot-and-cold for years about Noss until I read Gold House Book 1. This Noss-advocate book tipped the scales for me, ironically not in support of Doc's allegations, but in much more strongly doubting them.

This then led me to question more closely the events and players that dominated the VP venue in the years following Doc's death - primarily the US Army and the ONFP. It's hard for me to accept any evidence our government presents on any subject.
 

gollum said:
Buddy, I guess we will have to agree to disagree on Doc Noss. There was absolutely a treasure under Victorio Peak. NO WAY Doc could have hauled in excess of 300 bars from the Caballos to VP, stash them in the caves, then haul them up to the surface? No way. Besides Bennie Samaniego was given a bar and the famous Suit of Armor. Doc told him to tell people whenever they asked, that they came from a cave in the Caballos (not The San Andres). If the bars actually did come from the Caballos, why in God's Name would he be sending people to look in the very place they came from? Doesn't make a bit of sense. Then, we have the testimony of Capt. William "Orby" Swanner. He swore that he personally witnessed the US Government flatbed approximately ninety-three million troy ounces of gold from under VP. When he told his story to the Noss Family, the Government went to great lengths to impugn his character. They went as far as to say he was never even there. In reply, Swanner told the Noss's that if they ever gained access to the lower caverns, they would find his name sooted onto one of the walls (he used a carbon arc lantern). When the Noss's did get there, they found "ORBY SWANNER 7 Oct 1961 US ARMY 02206135 CAPT" exactly where Capt Swanner told them it would be.

I personally believe that Doc found a treasure under VP just like he said he did. Once he got burned when he tried to legally claim the area and again when he took bars to the mint in 1939 (I believe), he went looking for Willie's Cave. He may have found either that or a different treasure cave in the Caballos.

Mike
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As I mentioned in the preceding post to Oro, you and I have been down this road earlier and all the arguments are available in case anyone is interested. I know that you have been convinced. Too many red flags for me.
 

Thanks for the correction, it was not Lieutenant but Captain Swanner. At any rate, even if you utterly discount Doc Noss completely, I would not discount Swanner, and the legal actions taken. I have read some of those documents, something was definitely taken out of Victorio peak, technically stealing from the legal claim owners (Noss) and of massive value. Noss's "antics" could very well have been the result of finding a massive treasure. Until one finds such a thing, we do not know how it will affect our behavior, plus remember possession of gold was illegal with only a few loopholes. A simile would be to suppose you were to find say a billion dollars worth of "blood" diamonds today - would you just turn it in, or try to somehow convert it to cash? You might do some peculiar things, in that kind of situation.

:coffee2: :coffee2:
 

SDCFIA,

We have been down that road a couple of times. HAHAHA But to be fair, I was mostly convinced of a treasure under VP long before The Gold House Books came out. Same as The Ft. Huachuca Treasure.

White Sands Missile Range would have you believe that Capt. Orby Swanner was just some minor functionary in the Military Police. I have newspaper clippings showing Capt. Swanner was actually The Base Operations Officer for White Sands Missile Range. I also have a couple of other reasons for placing a large amount of stock in Capt. Swanner's Statements that I can't go into yet.

Mike
 

gollum said:
Buddy, I guess we will have to agree to disagree on Doc Noss. There was absolutely a treasure under Victorio Peak. NO WAY Doc could have hauled in excess of 300 bars from the Caballos to VP, stash them in the caves, then haul them up to the surface? No way. Besides Bennie Samaniego was given a bar and the famous Suit of Armor. Doc told him to tell people whenever they asked, that they came from a cave in the Caballos (not The San Andres). If the bars actually did come from the Caballos, why in God's Name would he be sending people to look in the very place they came from? Doesn't make a bit of sense. Then, we have the testimony of Capt. William "Orby" Swanner. He swore that he personally witnessed the US Government flatbed approximately ninety-three million troy ounces of gold from under VP. When he told his story to the Noss Family, the Government went to great lengths to impugn his character. They went as far as to say he was never even there. In reply, Swanner told the Noss's that if they ever gained access to the lower caverns, they would find his name sooted onto one of the walls (he used a carbon arc lantern). When the Noss's did get there, they found "ORBY SWANNER 7 Oct 1961 US ARMY 02206135 CAPT" exactly where Capt Swanner told them it would be.

I personally believe that Doc found a treasure under VP just like he said he did. Once he got burned when he tried to legally claim the area and again when he took bars to the mint in 1939 (I believe), he went looking for Willie's Cave. He may have found either that or a different treasure cave in the Caballos.

Mike
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OK Mike, I said I'd refrain from repeating all this again, and I will, except for one thing about Benny that I may not have explored earlier.

Don't you wonder that if Benny claimed that the gold came from the Caballos it was because he helped Doc remove the bars from there and blabbed it? Remember, Benny later changed his story and moved the discovery cave to Victorio Peak. Odd mistake to make, no? Seems possible to me that maybe Doc slapped him along side the head and said, "No, you dummy! Tell 'em Victorio Peak, not the Caballos, for Pete's sake! We want 'em looking here, not there!" Whatever the case may be, it's a fact that Benny changed his story, big time. So one way or another, Benny too was a liar.
 

sdcfia said:
OK Mike, I said I'd refrain from repeating all this again, and I will, except for one thing about Benny that I may not have explored earlier.

Don't you wonder that if Benny claimed that the gold came from the Caballos it was because he helped Doc remove the bars from there and blabbed it? Remember, Benny later changed his story and moved the discovery cave to Victorio Peak. Odd mistake to make, no? Seems possible to me that maybe Doc slapped him along side the head and said, "No, you dummy! Tell 'em Victorio Peak, not the Caballos, for Pete's sake! We want 'em looking here, not there!" Whatever the case may be, it's a fact that Benny changed his story, big time. So one way or another, Benny too was a liar.
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See, you're putting a lot of words in Doc's and Bennie's mouths that didn't necessarily happen (because it supports your theory). If I had to go to those reaches to work it into my theory, you would be all over me. The only thing we know is that Bennie said years later that they got everything from VP. When Doc gave him the bar and the armor, Doc told him that if anybody asks where he got them, he should say from a cave in the Caballos. What is so difficult to believe about that? You are calling Bennie a liar, but wouldn't you lie about it too?

Mike
 

gollum said:
See, you're putting a lot of words in Doc's and Bennie's mouths that didn't necessarily happen (because it supports your theory). If I had to go to those reaches to work it into my theory, you would be all over me. The only thing we know is that Bennie said years later that they got everything from VP. When Doc gave him the bar and the armor, Doc told him that if anybody asks where he got them, he should say from a cave in the Caballos. What is so difficult to believe about that? You are calling Bennie a liar, but wouldn't you lie about it too?

Mike
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Of course I'd lie about it! Who wouldn't? That's the point: if there is a benefit it doing so, people normally lie to obscure the truth. So, which lies do you feel comfortable accepting as truth? I say "accept" because at some point, however you rationalize it, you have to buy the story you like on faith. Faith in whom? Doc Noss? Ha ha. What about the evidence? Almost all hearsay, and circumstantial, based on a few facts and even more assumptions. "My theory" is that we can't trust any of these stories as the truth - least of all Doc's, as so well demonstrated in Gold House Book 1.

Therefore, it makes sense to me that: 1) Noss was in on some sort of a metal recovery in the Caballos, possibly involving multiple murders; 2) The rumors spread, making it too risky for him to attempt exploiting the Caballo site further; 3) He conjured up a "big discovery" at VP to remove himself from the Caballo associations; 4) While waiting for things to blow over in the Caballos, he screwed investors at VP for a decade (with no recoveries), using his Caballo loot as bait; 5) His scam finally caught up with him when he was killed by Ryan; 6) Many years following Noss's demise, the government is alleged to have removed large quantities of gold from VP. Funny - after all that activity, 1930s to 1960s, Noss gangsters and government gangsters - not one photo showing gold bars in the VP caverns. Not one. Lots of talk, lots of documents, lots of testimony, lots of guarantees. But not one snapshot. Odd.
 

Sdc; my friend, I can think of many reasons why no pictures have shown up, That doesn't men that there are none

Incidentally, the Franciscan, Navajos, and the Apaches only began to be active towads the end of the 1500's, the Jesuits had almost a 100 years to start loading the deposits.

NP's lil map clearly shows both the Victorio peak and the Caballos were involved

2.jpg.
 

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:coffee2:Amigo's, ever since I started this thread I have been waiting for people to mention and discuss certain things , since no one has, I will bring up the questions for discussion ?
1.What about the story of the General that retired and went to mexico and started a very expensive resort?
2.What about the flights to a smelter in Canada,which there were supposedly many?
3.What about the story of one flight going to Canada that lost its cargo of gold bars over a farm in the state of Washington?
These are just some things that were asked about and investigated by ONFP.np:cat:
 

Morning NP, coffee? :coffee2::coffee2:. Nah, never heard of them. My interest in the victorio peak and the Caballos, started with the discovery that the Jesuits, among others, had been storing prec. metal for trans shipment to Rome there, instead of passing it through a series of small missions to the vicinity of Matamoros.

Keep talking !
 

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NP:
From my own perspective I find the stories about Victorio Peak and what may or may not have happened there to be historically fascinating and very interesting.
I have read "100 tons of gold" and "the gold house trilogy" and many others several times.
However, since all of the San Andres Mountains are now off limits, I can not go there legally, so it has little significance to my current and future plans.

My focus has turned to the caballos since they are still somewhat accessible and not legally off limits.
However, first hand info is scarce and coming to an end, as most people with first hand knowledge of treasure sites etc are gone.

From what i can tell, the caballos where actually easier to access in the 20s and 30s than today.
You could actually drive a model t or model a thru polomas gap. Now a high clearance modern 4x4 may not be able to go thru the gap.
With info and access disappearing, the treasure hunting lifestyle is fast becoming a thing of the past.

Its too bad all the individuals with knowledge and /or desire on this site cant get together and form a cooperative group and lay all the info on the table and maybe find a location or two.

I have time, I have resources, I have equipment, I have desire, and a lot of questionable information.
So, time to go treasure hunting.
wr
 

Amigo's, Reminds me of the last time in the early 90's when Willie D. was seen leaving the Caballo's. np:cat:
 

Not Peralta said:
Amigo's, Reminds me of the last time in the early 90's when Willie D. was seen leaving the Caballo's. np:cat:
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The Gentlemen's names are not Willie . their names are Gene on the right , Steve is the name of the Gentleman with him .
Gene is related to my Sister in law , he is deceased as of 2009 , the Photo was not from Iraq. it was taken at
a compound at the Base in the State of Texas . I heard the story about this being trucks captured in Iraq .
that is not true though . if anyone knows my brother in law gene , could they private message me please .
I have to ask a question about where these bras went .
Also , my cousin and Uncle are talked about in these forums . Uncle Claude and His Son Tony = Claude Jr.
who on the forum knew my relatives ? Claude Suddreth sr. and jr.
Thank you .
 

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