Diversions,Dead Ends and Wild Cards

Where did my post go/?? I didn't say anything bad HEHEHE Did I?? Joe anyhow, I can't compete with your library. My feet on the ground has proven to show more than history has recorded. The law states nothing can be removed from the supe's and no artifact can be taken from There. That law makes it impossible for me to compete with your vast library of proof. Jerry I stand corrected. although Joe gives credit to the apache presence in the supe's he goes one step further and input;s a opinion into the mix. Joe's quote: Other than the Tonto Apache and those that came off San Carlos to find a little excitement and goodies, there is not much out there. I guees we will have to leave it up to the individual to base his or her own opinion. Joe if the law was different I would show you something to make you believe.

Best Wishes
Kurt Painter
 

silent hunter said:
Where did my post go/?? I didn't say anything bad HEHEHE Did I?? Joe anyhow, I can't compete with your library. My feet on the ground has proven to show more than history has recorded. The law states nothing can be removed from the supe's and no artifact can be taken from There. That law makes it impossible for me to compete with your vast library of proof. Jerry I stand corrected. although Joe gives credit to the apache presence in the supe's he goes one step further and input;s a opinion into the mix. Joe's quote: Other than the Tonto Apache and those that came off San Carlos to find a little excitement and goodies, there is not much out there. I guees we will have to leave it up to the individual to base his or her own opinion. Joe if the law was different I would show you something to make you believe.

Best Wishes
Kurt Painter
Click to expand...

We all have one... :laughing7:
 

Jim,

It's nice to have a copy of Tom's "The Chronological history of the Superstition Wilderness Area, Lost Dutchman Mine and the adjacent Central Mountain region of Arizona". Other than libraries, it's a tough, almost impossible, book to get short of being Greg Davis or a very close friend of Tom's.

Since you seem very familiar with the book, I assume you realize that most of the information does not originate from Tom. Mostly it's a chronological compilation of periodicals (newspaper articles) dealing with the subjects. In addition to that, Tom gives his other sources in his bibliography.

In that respect, those are not really Tom's words. They are quotes from his many sources and may not have been vetted for historical accuracy. In other words, It's a chronological record of what was reported at the time.

It requires written permission to copy any of the contents in any form or manner, which I assume includes posting extensive passages here.

Once again, just for the record, the Apache presence in the Superstitions as a tribal territory is limited to the Tonto Apache, from the historical records I could find. For the most part, the military involvement that includes "Apache" were mostly Yavapai and in specific cases Tonto Apache. In the Western half of the range it was almost exclusively Yavapai.......mistakenly reported as Apache.

As for the management removing offensive posts, which I'm sure you are familiar with, as you do it on DUSA......often, is pretty standard when someone calls another member a liar or something equally unintelligent. I try to avoid that, but must confess to occasionally missing that high mark.

The don't resort to that action just because they don't like the theory or information that the member is posting.

Joe Ribaudo
 

Ah haha Jim what does it take to make that list?? Just kidding Joe!! Your ability to speak Apache is amazing!! Can you just shoot the shizz in Apache or did you just copy and paste those words? Joe I never used any bad words or called you a liar in that post. I don' think you are a liar I just think all your knowledge comes from books. I am not saying that is bad at all. My opinion is there is only so much we can learn from a book before we have to get up and put on the hiking boots.

Best Wishes
Kurt Painter
 

Jim,

I got to thinking that you might say something important, or make some kind of off-the-wall charge that needed a reply, so I took you off ignore. Since your posts are so often indistinguishable from bb's, I once thought you were him, I took him off ignore as well. So far, you have outlasted him. :icon_thumright:

I often use Tom as a source for my own posts but, as he just told me this morning, he puts the information out there hoping people will research it for themselves, find errors and let him know what needs correction. In using other people's research for the information he puts in his books, he realizes they won't always be historically accurate.

Please don't call him and berate him for exchanging information with Joe Ribaudo. Tom and I are very good friends and we do that often, as you well know. I realize that some people think he is their exclusive source, but most folks are OK with the reality that he has a life outside of them.

If you are going to keep hanging out here, we may as well be as civil as possible, given our antagonistic history. I'm not going anywhere else, and you don't have the power to ban me, so neither of us needs the aggravation.

Joe Ribaudo
 

Seems I am always having to repeat myself for you Joe.

Quoted from a ways up then page.

"Now... If you find something else in there (this time) that you disagree with. That would still be an issue to be settled between you and Tom. I have no personal interest in, or opinions about the accuracy of the information either way".

I never challenged that accuracy of what Tom wrote. I just presented it for your review. The only challenge to it's accuracy that I saw came from you. Again... That is something that would be best resolved between you and Tom (preferably) in private as a gentleman, instead of spreading it all over this discussion.

:dontknow:

Best,

Jim
 

Jim,

There are NO issues between Tom and I. Actually, there never have been since the very first day he contacted me. We have an age old method of solving our disagreements.......we talk.

I did not bring Tom into this topic, you did. You came into the conversation to teach me about the Apache in the Superstitions. That's pretty much the same thing that caused us to get sideways back in 2002 when I did not accept your schooling on the Stone Maps.

Right now, I can't accept your teaching me anything about the Apache, but that could change if you find another source. I already have all of the books that Tom has written, including the books you have quoted from. Do you have anything else?

I am always open to anything new on the Apache and don't care who the source is. If you are really interested in that history, I can reccommend a number of good sources.

Thank's for your reply,

Joe Ribaudo
 

Jim Hatt said:
Joe,

:dontknow:
Click to expand...

No problem. Not everyone is as interested in Apache history as I am.

As I said, I have read everything Tom has published. Between that and
our private conversations, I am the happy & grateful recipient of as much historical knowledge as I can possibly get.

Joe Ribaudo
 

cactusjumper said:
Right now, I can't accept your teaching me anything about the Apache, but that could change if you find another source. I already have all of the books that Tom has written, including the books you have quoted from. Do you have anything else?

Joe Ribaudo
Click to expand...



I am sorry you did not like my source Joe.

Although there may be better sources for the entire history of the Apache in general.

Despite our well known difference of opinions on the subject of the stone maps... I have always considered Tom Kollenborn to be the ultimate living authority on the history of the Superstition Mountains. (That would include the Apache presence there).

It's not likely there is anything you could say that would change that in my mind.

Best,

Jim
 

Jim Hatt said:
cactusjumper said:
Right now, I can't accept your teaching me anything about the Apache, but that could change if you find another source. I already have all of the books that Tom has written, including the books you have quoted from. Do you have anything else?

Joe Ribaudo
Click to expand...



I am sorry you did not like my source Joe.

Although there may be better sources for the entire history of the Apache in general... I have always considered Tom Kollenborn to be the ultimate living authority on the history of the Superstition Mountains.

It's not likely there is anything you could say that would change that in my mind.

Best,

Jim
Click to expand...

Nice try Jim.

"As I said, I have read everything Tom has published. Between that and our private conversations, I am the happy & grateful recipient of as much historical knowledge as I can possibly get."

Since it is still your intention, after all these years to "teach" me something, it would help if you could bring something more to class than books that I have already read.....many times.

No matter how you twist my words to suit your agenda, you will never drive a wedge between Tom and I. He knows you too well to pay any attention to your games.

There is a mutual respect there, that you would find hard to understand. He knows I will never stab him in the back and I know he will defend me from such nonsense as you like to spread around.

I can see there is nothing going on over a DUSA, so you and your buddies show up here trying to stir up trouble. Members are not allowed to defend themselves over there, without getting banned, and the mod's here may even pull this post, but you're in the wrong playground to bully people into silence.

Joe Ribaudo
 

Kurt,

Just so you know, I grew up with many friends who were Kumeyaay Indians from the Barona Indian Reservation. We went to school, played cards, drank......drank, and fought together. We found a lot of people to fight when we had been drinking. ::) I have family that are part Cherokee.

I didn't even know that there was an Apache site where you can copy and paste words. You would know more about that than I. You should have known that I knew the meaning of your words, when I corrected your misuse of "NALZHEEHÍ LANOHWILE".

You don't know anything about me Kurt, so you should try to assume less and just read my posts as I write them. I used two different Apache dialects in my posts to you. While familiar with both, I am hardly fluent in either. On the other hand, I can get by in both languages for these posts. Do you know which was the second language I used in my post to you?

I have many, many sources which are outside my books and the Internet. Over the years I have made a number of personal contacts, who are the real experts. I am just a casual researcher and there are many members here who put me to shame.

I am told that there is a person here who is suffering from some sickness. I can't help but feel that it is akaa sitii diyi, bil. What do you think? Is there someone in your family who can sing for him? I hope so, as I would like to see him get better.

On the other hand, it may just be that miik, ee edii. :D

Joe Ribaudo
 

Anyone know the genesis of the name "Apache"?

Regards:SH.
 

Wayne,

[Apache derives from apachu and means "enemy"- not in the language used by these people themselves but in the tongue spoken by the Zuni, a sedentary southwestern tribe that traded with them in the 16th century. By 1598, apachu was the term most commonly used by other Indian groups.]
"The Apache" by Michael E. Melody, From the "Indians Of North America" series.

Believe that's the most commonly held belief, although there are other theories.

Opler says it a little differently but still attributes it to the Zuni: ".....probably a Zuni term for any group of non-Pueblo people", which probably also means "enemy".

Don't know if there is any theory cut in stone.......so to speak.

I am assuming it was a serious question. :wink:

Take care,

Joe
 

Joe I have enjoyed this debate!! Please don't think I just randomly choose you to argue with. Sometime to get the best answers to any question one must add some fuel to the discussion to make it interesting. This Indian discusion has been interesting for me. I said before that you could not offended me. That is because I always keep a open mind I don't think one sided. I have been reading your post's since 2007 when you where discusing the bluff spring area.

Best Wishes
Kurt Painter
 

silent hunter said:
Joe I have enjoyed this debate!! Please don't think I just randomly choose you to argue with. Sometime to get the best answers to any question one must add some fuel to the discussion to make it interesting. This Indian discusion has been interesting for me. I said before that you could not offended me. That is because I always keep a open mind I don't think one sided. I have been reading your post's since 2007 when you where discusing the bluff spring area.

Best Wishes
Kurt Painter
Click to expand...

Kurt,

Since you don't really know me, and I believe your posts are influenced by your friendship with Jim, I am not really offended by the tone of your posts. The content is intersting, which is why I am still talking to you.

As long as we keep our exchanges respectful, I hope to continue the debates for a long time. It seems that Apache history may be our mutual interest, so that may be what keeps us talking.

As for "boots on the ground", I have been exploring the Superstitions since I was 13-years old. It's true I have never lived in Apache Junction, so my trips were limited to a few times a year, except for one year in Vietnam and one year in Alaska. Most of my trips were for a week or more.

No one knew me down here, because I kept a low profile when I made those trips. I envy and respect the experience of those who have been able to spend a great deal of time in the Superstitions, including Jim Hatt.

I have learned what I could, given the limitations of having to make a living and take care of my family. It's always been a hobby, expensive, but a hobby.

Joe Ribaudo
 

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