Diversions,Dead Ends and Wild Cards

Hi Joe:
"I am assuming it was a serious question. Wink"

-Absolutely.Just something that came to mind,and I had not yet had time to look into.
The identity "apache" obviously pre-dates the term "apacheria" used on the earliest maps,yet the "apache" identify themselves by many other names.Anyway,this wikpedia link has a lot more on the subject.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache

Regards:Wayne
 

Wayne,

Prehistory Apache are very difficult to put in a neat little box. That's simply the nature of small nomadic bands. Anything we can come up with, is primarily guesswork, based on the minuscule evidence that remains to be found.

Agrarian cultures tended to stay in one place for long periods of time. In that time span, they left enormous amounts of midden/trash/evidence for us to sift through.

All of that painted a picture of the culture that lived there, even without a written language.

That is only my unqualified opinion.

Take care,

Joe
 

Hello Mr. Ribaudo,

Sure is nice to know what little recorded history we have of the Apache, and other native tribes. Since you have a great interest in the presence of Apache in the Superstitions, you may want to check D.U.S.A.. Mr. Hatt has a great article there titled Walter Perrine's cave of gold bars.

Mr. Hatt had interviewed Mr. Perrine some time before his death. Mr. Perrine was raised by his grandmother who was a full blooded Chiricahua Apache, born near the base of Weaver's Needle in 1860. She lived there with a small band for 10 years.

Homar P. Olivarez
 

Homar That was the story I was waiting for Joe to throw in the mix. I was sure with all his books he would at least Honor the fact that Walter Perrine had family history in that range. Joe what opinion do you have about the Walter Perrine story? Also what is your opinion on the sleeping squaw? As far back as I know the Zuni used the name Apache to describe there enemy. The Zuni have lived in the same area for about 1800 years.
bEST wISHES
Kurt Painter
 

coazon de oro said:
Hello Mr. Ribaudo,

Sure is nice to know what little recorded history we have of the Apache, and other native tribes. Since you have a great interest in the presence of Apache in the Superstitions, you may want to check D.U.S.A.. Mr. Hatt has a great article there titled Walter Perrine's cave of gold bars.

Mr. Hatt had interviewed Mr. Perrine some time before his death. Mr. Perrine was raised by his grandmother who was a full blooded Chiricahua Apache, born near the base of Weaver's Needle in 1860. She lived there with a small band for 10 years.

Homar P. Olivarez
Click to expand...

Homar & Kurt,

The Chiricahua did not live in the Superstitions, or even close to the range. The Eastern Band were almost exclusively in New Mexico. The Central Band lived in Southern Arizona and Southwestern New Mexico. They were not located above Morenci, actually they were south of that town. The Southern Band's territory was in Sonora and a small slice of Southernwestern New Mexico.

The fact that Jim Hatt is retelling the story, does not give me any confidence that the story, as told by Mr. Perrine and retold by Jim, is more than a tall tale, although I would imagine that Jim believes it's a true story. He does, after all, believe in the authenticity of the Latin Heart and the Stone Crosses.

That period of Chiricahua history is pretty well documented. Anything is possible, but I have my doubts that the story is true.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo
 

cactusjumper said:
coazon de oro said:
Hello Mr. Ribaudo,

Sure is nice to know what little recorded history we have of the Apache, and other native tribes. Since you have a great interest in the presence of Apache in the Superstitions, you may want to check D.U.S.A.. Mr. Hatt has a great article there titled Walter Perrine's cave of gold bars.

Mr. Hatt had interviewed Mr. Perrine some time before his death. Mr. Perrine was raised by his grandmother who was a full blooded Chiricahua Apache, born near the base of Weaver's Needle in 1860. She lived there with a small band for 10 years.

Homar P. Olivarez
Click to expand...

Homar & Kurt,

The Chiricahua did not live in the Superstitions, or even close to the range. The Eastern Band were almost exclusively in New Mexico. The Central Band lived in Southern Arizona and Southwestern New Mexico. They were not located above Morenci, actually they were south of that town. The Southern Band's territory was in Sonora and a small slice of Southernwestern New Mexico.

The fact that Jim Hatt is retelling the story, does not give me any confidence that the story, as told by Mr. Perrine and retold by Jim, is more than a tall tale, although I would imagine that Jim believes it's a true story. He does, after all, believe in the authenticity of the Latin Heart and the Stone Crosses.

That period of Chiricahua history is pretty well documented. Anything is possible, but I have my doubts that the story is true.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo
Click to expand...

I may be getting a couple of stories mixed up, but wasn't that story actually taped audio and video of that interview. ???
It wasn't merely retold by Jim...
 

Homar,

In my limited knowlege of the Apache i must agree that while they never had large permenant camps or vilages in the Superstitions, they used those mountains constantly for many diferent reasons.

the word apachu does not mean enemy. that is an often misquoted mistake, even by historians in several books. the word a-pachu is a zuni word meaning the plural of Navajo. a-pacu is the zuni word for Navajo and a-pachu means an extention of the Navajo which the apache were.

enemy comes from a Yavapai word paca or pace and is where the word enemy has been asociated with the apaches. Edgar Perry of mcnary and whiteriver the formost western apache historian explained this misconception in a lecture I attended several years ago in whiteriver. It was amazing the mistakes and misconceptions authors like Goodwin, oplar and others have published over the years about the apache. The white man has given the apache some 50 diferent names to try and pigeonhole them while the apache still refer to themselves by the name they always have, the indeh. it is my own personal opinion that one hour spent listening to mr. Perry was worth 1000 hours of reading and studing the dozens of books on the apache I read over my lifetime. just my 2cents worth.

Will Johnson
Apache Junction
 

Javaone said:
cactusjumper said:
coazon de oro said:
Hello Mr. Ribaudo,

Sure is nice to know what little recorded history we have of the Apache, and other native tribes. Since you have a great interest in the presence of Apache in the Superstitions, you may want to check D.U.S.A.. Mr. Hatt has a great article there titled Walter Perrine's cave of gold bars.

Mr. Hatt had interviewed Mr. Perrine some time before his death. Mr. Perrine was raised by his grandmother who was a full blooded Chiricahua Apache, born near the base of Weaver's Needle in 1860. She lived there with a small band for 10 years.

Homar P. Olivarez
Click to expand...

Homar & Kurt,

The Chiricahua did not live in the Superstitions, or even close to the range. The Eastern Band were almost exclusively in New Mexico. The Central Band lived in Southern Arizona and Southwestern New Mexico. They were not located above Morenci, actually they were south of that town. The Southern Band's territory was in Sonora and a small slice of Southernwestern New Mexico.

The fact that Jim Hatt is retelling the story, does not give me any confidence that the story, as told by Mr. Perrine and retold by Jim, is more than a tall tale, although I would imagine that Jim believes it's a true story. He does, after all, believe in the authenticity of the Latin Heart and the Stone Crosses.

That period of Chiricahua history is pretty well documented. Anything is possible, but I have my doubts that the story is true.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo
Click to expand...

I may be getting a couple of stories mixed up, but wasn't that story actually taped audio and video of that interview. ???
It wasn't merely retold by Jim...
Click to expand...

Yes, it was an audio and video recording of Mr. Perrine telling the story himself in his own words.
 

Will, Thanks for your input I have spent my life in search of Indian history. I found my way into the supe's following some maps I found in a lost canyon. This canyon is a history book of the Zuni Indians and there trail system from the inner world to the present day Zuni. There where maps telling where to find salt,water,what type of animals and maps with trails leading throughout the midwest, from north to south and from east to the west. This canyon was the place where the Zuni had hidden there warriors and young men from the spanish. If you want to talk about a true history book this is the spot to be. You can see some of the writtings in my thread @ desert usa forum/Cibola Zuni trip. As far as I know I am the only person to discover this canyon. Joe there are thousands upon thousands of writtings that date as far back as 1800 years and as receant as the 1900's.

bEST wISHES
Kurt Painter
 

Kurt, I will surely go to the link you gave me and read yourthread on the cibola-zuni trip. My knowledge of native americans is far behind others here and I hope no one takes that i don't think books by the white authors like Goodwin and opler and others aren't great. They all have amazig information and much of it taken from different indian tribes themselves. it is how the authors interpreted and came to the conclusions with that information that went haywire in some places. Read any two native american books by white authors and you will quickly see many conflicting points on key iasues. i don't think anyone seriously believes the apache didn't have a presence in the superstitions, its in the extent of that presence where the debate falls.i also have seen heard of the audiovisual of Perrine it has been around for quite some time.

Will Johnson
Apache Junction
 

Will I agree the "white eye' Authors sometimes form conclusions based around what people want to read. Why write a book that people don't want to read.

bEST wISHES
Kurt Painter
 

silent hunter said:
Will I agree the "white eye' Authors sometimes form conclusions based around what people want to read. Why write a book that people don't want to read.

bEST wISHES
Kurt Painter
Click to expand...

Speaking of Whitey, has anyone read Sweeney's latest, From Cochise to Geronimo: The Chiricahua Apaches, 1874-1886?

The natives' well-known penchant for accurate oral histories is nothing to sneeze at, but unfortunately the art has all but vanished. Notwithstanding some notable exceptions among a few of the pueblo viejos (rumors, you understand - they still close the kiva sipapu to outsiders, including their own brothers), campfire stories and tribal legends among the nomadic tribes in particular have suffered terribly. Too much white world for too long. As soon as history progressed beyond their wild and free days, the Apache had a habit of telling Whitey what he wanted to hear, especially concerning gold mines. Do any tribal members still keep the secrets of the old hidden mines (Black Legion, et al)? Hard to say, but it makes good reading for the faithful. I personally haven't seen much to convince me. There are certain 'off-limits' areas at San Carlos and Whiteriver that are enforced, but I wonder if the enforcers know why or simply do it out of habit.
 

Mr. Ribaudo,

It goes without saying, that Native Indian history is not very well documented. The link that Javaone posted, and Will's post confirm this. To take the Skull Cave incident and dismiss all the rest is pointless, just like beating a dead horse. I for one am eager to learn, and appreciate all the input from everybody, and admire people like Kurt that are out there researching, gathering evidence, and walking the walk.
Homar P. Olivarez
 

As for more recent Apache battles:

And the mountain known as "Dzil Nchaa Si An".

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-20818935.html

Aside from the historical perceptive,Father Polzer played a role in the controversy as well.

From the article:

"Repudiations of the San Carlos Claims

Father Polzer's affidavit refutes the coalition's claims with three central assertions concerning Western Apache ties to Mt. Graham: "The Apaches were very late immigrants to the Gila Valley.... They were not a mountain-dwelling tribe.... Rarely did the Apaches use these mountain heights, and the sacredness is about as specific as references to the sky." Polzer is the Curator of Ethnohistory at the University of Arizona's Arizona State Museum (ASM), and offered his statements as a "Specialist for ... an area which encompasses Southern Arizona and includes Mt. Graham."

The affidavit contradicts fundamental academic and Native conceptions of Western Apache history and culture without introducing new data, so it is logical that Polzer targets Grenville Goodwin, the most widely acknowledged authority on the pre-reservation Western Apache. Polzer refers to Goodwin's work as "only the notes of a graduate student," but for the 15 years prior to his premature death in 1940, Goodwin filled a conspicuous gap in American anthropology by living with and learning from the Western Apache. In stark contrast to Goodwin's studies, Polzer's notions about the Apache rely on reports from soldiers and explorers who seldom spent more than a few weeks in Apacheria or cared to learn more about its residents than was required to subdue them or take their land. Goodwin's (1935, 1937, 1938) preliminary studies were published in the prestigious American Anthropologist. His posthumous magnum opus, The Social Organization of the Western Apache (1942), endures as a classic reference work. The four linear feet of Goodwin's "notes" at the Arizona State Museum are an exceptional resource. A memorial penned by a true giant of Southwestern anthropology and ethnohistory, Edward Spicer (1961:201), notes that, "But for the work of Goodwin, we would have lost almost all opportunity to participate in the Apache world."

Evaluating Polzer's more substantive assertions about Western Apache history and culture requires background data. Territorial bands made up of loosely allied clusters of households ("local groups") constituted pre-reservation Western Apache economic and political units (Goodwin 1942; Basso 1983; Figure 2). Interaction among bands gave rise to culturally and linguistically distinct nations (i.e., Western Apache, Chiricahua, Mescalero, Jicarilla) and within these, subtribes (or band-groups). The Cibecue, San Carlos, and White Mountain Apache sub-tribes of the Western Apache were, along with the Navajo, the most agricultural of the Southwest's Athapaskan speakers (Goodwin 1935, 1937). Farm produce typically made up at least one-third of these groups' diet. Agricultural ritual, folklore, and symbolism are prominent. Most Western Apache archaeological sites are tied to the farmsteads that were the hub for seasonally patterned foraging for wild foods within bands' environmentally diverse territories (Goodwin 1937, 1939, 1942; Buskirk 1986; Welch 1994; Welch and Ciolek-Torrello 1994). Arizona's other Apache nation, the Chiricahua, were far less agricultural (Opler 1965).

[Figure 2 ILLUSTRATION OMITTED]

Polzer's insistence that the Apache were not mountain dwellers is difficult to understand without reference to apparent conflicts among his University of Arizona, Vatican, and academic interests. Prevailing views among Apache persons and scholars hold that mountains permeate Western Apache culture and history. Many Southwestern ranges (e.g., Chiricahua, Pinal, Sierra Blanca) derive their names from Apache tenants, or vice versa (Opler 1965; see also Wilson 1991). Mountain peaks form the backdrop for the official tribal seals of both the San Carlos and White Mountain tribes. Perry's (1991) culture history, Western Apache Heritage: People of the Mountain Corridor, is organized around the widely accepted view that Apaches are mountain dwellers both in the narrow sense … "

Raises some interesting questions,does it not?

Regards:SH.
 

somehiker said:
Hi Springfield:
"Do any tribal members still keep the secrets of the old hidden mines (Black Legion, et al)?"

Joe has a topic on the "LDM" site regarding the "Black Legion" and the presence of Apache in the Superstitions.

http://thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/...=1&t=202&sid=63cc6ee548606db459150e11fe0cf732

Tom Kollenborn also wrote an article on the topic.

http://www.superstitionmountain.info/chronicles/2008/03_17_08.html

Regards:SH.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the links, hiker. I don't guess I know much more now about the BL than before. I'd be curious about when and where this legend originated - some treasure magazine or book, maybe. Much of the now-accepted-as-true treasure lore, in Superstitionville and everywhere else, seem to been hatched in this manner. Based on what I've seen, it's hard to believe the BL is a real deal. That's not to say there might not be 'sentinels' around, but if there are, I'd bet they aren't Apaches.
 

Father Polzer and I had a no. of discussions regarding Jesuit mining in the Americas. He flatly denied such ever took place, he denied that Tayopa ever existed, even when I showed him pictures of it. He was grudgingly, slowly changing on Tayopa's existance when he passed away in Santa Barbara waiting for his resection back to normal. He just passed away in his sleep. I would have loved taking him up there.

I liked him, he was a true gentleman.

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

Joe How are you today? Wayne, Homar,Sringfield,Javone,Will and yes even you Joe. I just want to say thanks to you all for helping with the research into the Apache presence within the superstiton mountains and surrounding area's. I think history sometimes forgets that there where people here on this piece of land we call America for some time before we brought are 100 story buildings ect.ect.. Gold was valuable to them before the White eye's even came here. Before these Indians where men they where children and children play and go into places Adults would not go in search of fun. There would not of been any hope to work a mine in the superstition mountains with 2 men or 400 men, the Indians would have known. Have you ever listened to a miner striking a pick or a drill bit? How about black powder explosion going off,Boooooooom,booooom,boooom???The tribes placed men in lookout spots to prevent any intruders. Joe this question is for you. There had to have been a deal made to let the Spanish or Mexicans mine into the land of the Thunder Gods.

bEST wISHES
Kurt Painter
 

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