Diversions,Dead Ends and Wild Cards

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

[I know that I don't dispute Native American presence in the Superstitions, but I think Wayne's point is a good one in that "Apache" may very well have become a universal term among non Native Americans during some of those time periods.

Whenever cattle theft, killings, attacks, etc... By Native Americans were noted, it's quite likely the word "Apache" was applied no matter what the actual tribe involved was.]

Those are true statements and apply especially to Hoomothya (Mike Burns) and the Kwevkepaya (Yavapai) killed and captured at Skull Cave. They were Yavapai not Apache.

All of the Yavapai (Tolkepayas, Yavapes, Wipukepas and Kwevkepayas) spoke the Upland Yuman dialects, and could understand each others speach. The Apache spoke an entiely different "Athapaskan" language.

Most of the first people into the Southwest, considered the many differing tribes to be "Apache". Some people who comment on this history today, are not educated on the true ancestry of of the Yavapai and Apache, primarily the Tonto Apache.

I get my information from many sources, which sit on my bookshelves, within easy reach. I seldom use the Internet, because much of that information is.....incorrect.

While not the only book I have on the subject, the above information comes from "Surviving Conquest: A history of the Yavapai Peoples" by Timothy Braatz. The introduction begins with the stories of Hoomothya and Wassaja (Carlos Montezuma), starting on page one.

Some of Carlos Montezuma's history and importance to the Native Americans can be found in Edward Spicer's "Cycles of Conquest", pages 530-31.

I realize that some people will spend hours on the Internet trying to denigrate anything I say. If anyone wants sources for any of my opinions, I will oblige them. As there are many sources, I won't bother to post individual quotes. Instead, I will be happy to list the books where I have garnered my limited knowledge.

If anyone catches me in error, I will be happy to acknowledge that.....if it's true.

Take care,

Joe

Wayne,

Read your last post after I posted this. You are correct, Sir.

Joe

 

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[somehiker]

Sometimes Joe,by not using what is available on the internet,you may be missing out on what is being told by the "people" themselves.Should we regard their research into their own history and their understanding of same as "incorrect",just because they use the internet to disseminate their story?
one example:http://www.yavapai-apache.org/YanPOSTER.pdf

One thing that I have wondered about,though,and have so far not been able to determine conclusively from any source,book or on line resource is........Has any source dated the arrival of the Yavapai to the region?
Aside from a time frame of "centuries ago"
and as a related question.......Did the Yavapai or the Apache arrive first,or possibly simultaneously (more or less)?

Regards:SH.

 

[Blindbowman]

talk about dead ends ...lol

ha jim you want chip some ore ....or are you going to wait till your to old to sail ...?

i got to be here right now . so how much gold is to much .. i dont think there is a lemit how bout you jim .. how about you cup .. was your ignore bottom worth your future .. think about it

 

[somehiker]

talk about dead ends ...lol

ha jim you want chip some ore ....or are you going to wait till your to old to sail ...?

i got to be here right now . so how much gold is to much .. i dont think there is a lemit how bout you jim .. how about you cup .. was your ignore bottom worth your future .. think about it

Welcome BB:
Gettin lonely over there in Ifounditland?

 

[Blindbowman]

talk about dead ends ...lol

ha jim you want chip some ore ....or are you going to wait till your to old to sail ...?

i got to be here right now . so how much gold is to much .. i dont think there is a lemit how bout you jim .. how about you cup .. was your ignore bottom worth your future .. think about it

Welcome BB:
Gettin lonely over there in Ifounditland?

lol

its ok i have the mine to keep me company ...lol i love the fact that there is no way to locate the mine useing the stones or the will ....


but i knew what waltz was talking about and look how many did not have a signal clue ... ignore that lol

 

[coazon de oro]

Paul,

[I know that I don't dispute Native American presence in the Superstitions, but I think Wayne's point is a good one in that "Apache" may very well have become a universal term among non Native Americans during some of those time periods.

Whenever cattle theft, killings, attacks, etc... By Native Americans were noted, it's quite likely the word "Apache" was applied no matter what the actual tribe involved was.]

Those are true statements and apply especially to Hoomothya (Mike Burns) and the Kwevkepaya (Yavapai) killed and captured at Skull Cave. They were Yavapai not Apache.

All of the Yavapai (Tolkepayas, Yavapes, Wipukepas and Kwevkepayas) spoke the Upland Yuman dialects, and could understand each others speach. The Apache spoke an entiely different "Athapaskan" language.

Most of the first people into the Southwest, considered the many differing tribes to be "Apache". Some people who comment on this history today, are not educated on the true ancestry of of the Yavapai and Apache, primarily the Tonto Apache.

I get my information from many sources, which sit on my bookshelves, within easy reach. I seldom use the Internet, because much of that information is.....incorrect.

While not the only book I have on the subject, the above information comes from "Surviving Conquest: A history of the Yavapai Peoples" by Timothy Braatz. The introduction begins with the stories of Hoomothya and Wassaja (Carlos Montezuma), starting on page one.

Some of Carlos Montezuma's history and importance to the Native Americans can be found in Edward Spicer's "Cycles of Conquest", pages 530-31.

I realize that some people will spend hours on the Internet trying to denigrate anything I say. If anyone wants sources for any of my opinions, I will oblige them. As there are many sources, I won't bother to post individual quotes. Instead, I will be happy to list the books where I have garnered my limited knowledge.

If anyone catches me in error, I will be happy to acknowledge that.....if it's true.

Take care,

Joe

Wayne,

Read your last post after I posted this. You are correct, Sir.

Joe

Hello Joe,

I hope you don't go and discount that there is gold in Arizona just because some fool's have confused iron pyrite with it. The real prospectors and miners knew the difference.

Don't let your library go to waste. The book you read is about the Yavapai people, and yes some would confuse them with Apache among others. The U.S. Infantry, U.S. Cavalry, and others that volunteered to fight the Apache, such as the Pima's, wouldn't make that mistake.

The U.S. Infantry, and U.S. Cavalry used expert scouts which sometimes were Apache themselves. If they recorded having fought Apache in the Superstitions, I believe it.

Do you still discount that there were Apache in the Superstitions?

Homar P. Olivarez

 

[somehiker]

talk about dead ends ...lol

ha jim you want chip some ore ....or are you going to wait till your to old to sail ...?

i got to be here right now . so how much gold is to much .. i dont think there is a lemit how bout you jim .. how about you cup .. was your ignore bottom worth your future .. think about it

Welcome BB:
Gettin lonely over there in Ifounditland?

lol

its ok i have the mine to keep me company ...lol i love the fact that there is no way to locate the mine useing the stones or the will ....


but i knew what waltz was talking about and look how many did not have a signal clue ... ignore that lol

BB:
You and this guy probably have something in common.I'll bet he can feel your pain.



Bet the guy was late for anger-management class.

 

[somehiker]

Or maybe this guy:

 

[Blindbowman]

they say thats why the mohawk make the best climbers .. because death means very little to them....

it would help if your link worked .. thats the part you for got ...lol

 

[somehiker]

they say thats why the mohawk make the best climbers .. because death means very little to them....

it would help if your link worked .. thats the part you for got ...lol

I've been there,BB,shinnying up the steel without a ladder and no harness.Dragging a hundred feet of welding cable across a 4" wide wobbling joist before the shoes are welded to the tie plates.Nothin but a lot of air and a concrete slab to break the fall.I ain't mohawk,but I've worked along side them.They didn't want to fall,any more than the rest of us did.No drinkin on that job either,by choice.
Regards:SH.

 

[cactusjumper]

Sometimes Joe,by not using what is available on the internet,you may be missing out on what is being told by the "people" themselves.Should we regard their research into their own history and their understanding of same as "incorrect",just because they use the internet to disseminate their story?
one example:http://www.yavapai-apache.org/YanPOSTER.pdf

One thing that I have wondered about,though,and have so far not been able to determine conclusively from any source,book or on line resource is........Has any source dated the arrival of the Yavapai to the region?
Aside from a time frame of "centuries ago"
and as a related question.......Did the Yavapai or the Apache arrive first,or possibly simultaneously (more or less)?

Regards:SH.

Wayne,

"I seldom use the Internet" is not the same thing as "not using what is available on the internet". If you just read what I write, as it is written, there will be less necessity to read your own feelings of what I have written into my posts.

Dates of Native American arrival into a specific area are often nebulous. There always seems to be plenty of room for disagreement. While the Yavapai say "many years ago" that is never satisfying to the more scientific minds who like to date such things. Dating ceramics is as good as it will get, and that seems none too precise.

The same problems follow with the Apache. I have read some of the best authorities on dating arrival for the Apache in the Southwest, and it remains a "best guess" with all of them. Things would be different if either tribe had a written language.

Most accounts of the two tribes histories, which did a little melding, are written by Anglo's. That's not to say they don't get it right, because they are simply recording what the ancestors tell them. Even where events are told "in their own words" it is usually whites doing the writing. Those accounts are probably as close as we will get to the Indian versions. I will accept the words of Grenville Goodwin, Aleshire, Opler, Thrapp, Baldwin, Debo, Cremony, Lockwood, Basso.......,etc.

At the same time, I read books like: "Apache Mothers and Daughters" by Boyer and Gayton, "I Fought with Geronimo" by Betzinez and Nye, "Women of the Apache Nation" by H. Henrietta Stockey, "Geronimo: His Own Story" Edited by S. M. Barrett, "Don't let the Sun Step Over You" by Eva Tulene Watt, with assistance from Keith H. Basso, "Apache Legends" by Lou Cuevas.

I do the best I can to try and get the history of the Native Americans as complete as I can. For those who think I just surf the net for my facts, I will be happy to provide photo's of any book I have quoted from, within minutes of being asked (evenings only), as long as the person asking will do the same thing.

I believe you would enjoy spending some time in my library.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Blindbowman]

they say thats why the mohawk make the best climbers .. because death means very little to them....

it would help if your link worked .. thats the part you for got ...lol

I've been there,BB,shinnying up the steel without a ladder and no harness.Dragging a hundred feet of welding cable across a 4" wide wobbling joist before the shoes are welded to the tie plates.Nothin but a lot of air and a concrete slab to break the fall.I ain't mohawk,but I've worked along side them.They didn't want to fall,any more than the rest of us did.No drinkin on that job either,by choice.
Regards:SH.

and all these years i wonderd why i drink 151 doubles on the rocks

it is you that lives on the northern side of erie .. you dont really live that far from me .. dud e .. my son goes BU .. doc in sports med ..maybe we can get together some time .. maybe you can tell me what this rock samples is ..... i would have to put away all my gold bars ...lol

 

[somehiker]

I probably would,Joe.
With three universities and several college campuses within 20 minutes,as well as a large public library up the road a bit,I have pretty fair access to most publications,research materials and periodicals.I wish I had more time to spend going through all that they have listed in their catalogues.

Regards:SH.

 

[somehiker]

"and all these years i wonderd why i drink 151 doubles on the rocks "

Splains a lot BB.

 

[Blindbowman]

I probably would,Joe.
With three universities and several college campuses within 20 minutes,as well as a large public library up the road a bit,I have pretty fair access to most publications,research materials and periodicals.I wish I had more time to spend going through all that they have listed in their catalogues.

Regards:SH.

now you see thats just why i retired at the age of 27 ...now i runing out and i may have to reopen my mine a day of two ...lol

really dont have to over work when the ore is that rich ...lol

 

[Blindbowman]

i am not sure how many around here would know a wild card if they saw one ...lol it makes me wonder how much ore i can brake in a day .. i am 50 now and dont wont to carry to much ...could throw my back out ...lol

i do know one thing ... if waltz was here i would give him a big hug ....and thank him i am sick of clues they can drive ya nuts ..


rich and crazy . not a bad way go ....lol

 

[cactusjumper]

Homar,

I have never discounted "that there were Apache in the Superstitions", but many of those who "recorded having fought Apache in the Superstitions" could not tell the difference between an Apache and a Yavapai. On the other hand, they may have fought Tonto Apache, who were there. They and the Yavapai did a lot of intermarrying, which is why that tribe is now known as the Yavapai-Apache Nation......which is what they call themselves.

In the attack on Skull Cave, there were many Indian scouts working for the Army. They were led by a Tonto Apache named, Nantaje. There were around 100 Pima scouts in the assault as well. I am very familiar with the history of the Apache scouts used by General Cook.

The Pima's would have killed all of the survivors, if not for the Tonto Apache's. I have been researching this history for many years now. I don't claim to know everything, but I am familiar enough with the stories to know that Mike Burns was Yavapai, Kwevkepaya to be specific, and not Apache.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Blindbowman]

Homar,

I have never discounted "that there were Apache in the Superstitions", but many of those who "recorded having fought Apache in the Superstitions" could not tell the difference between an Apache and a Yavapai. On the other hand, they may have fought Tonto Apache, who were there. They and the Yavapai did a lot of intermarrying, which is why that tribe is now known as the Yavapai-Apache Nation......which is what they call themselves.

In the attack on Skull Cave, there were many Indian scouts working for the Army. They were led by a Tonto Apache named, Nantaje. There were around 100 Pima scouts in the assault as well. I am very familiar with the history of the Apache scouts used by General Cook.

The Pima's would have killed all of the survivors, if not for the Tonto Apache's. I have been researching this history for many years now. I don't claim to know everything, but I am familiar enough with the stories to know that Mike Burns was Yavapai, Kwevkepaya to be specific, and not Apache.

Joe Ribaudo

"I don't claim to know everything " , and your never going to if you keep people smarter then you on ignore ... lol

your old i give you that ...lol

 

[cactusjumper]

I probably would,Joe.
With three universities and several college campuses within 20 minutes,as well as a large public library up the road a bit,I have pretty fair access to most publications,research materials and periodicals.I wish I had more time to spend going through all that they have listed in their catalogues.

Regards:SH.

Wayne,

I'm sure that works fine for you, as well as many others. I prefer to have my research material even closer. I know I miss out on a lot of information, but I wouldn't be able to remember it all anyway. Man's got to know his limitations.
Constant trips to Phoenix are out of the question, so I do the best I can here at home.

Take care,

Joe

 

[jimb]

All I can say is that it gets better here every day!