Diversions,Dead Ends and Wild Cards

silent hunter said:
The apache indians from the valley in the 1840's had a camp outside a mexico town of sonoran. While they where there peacefully trading with the mexicans there camp was attacked and the indians who where left behind to gaurd the camp where killed. Among those killed where Chief Goyathlay's wife and children. Now what I wont get into is what the indians where trading in sonora because I dont know. But what ever it was caused the death of his family. The indian chiefs name was Goyathlay's or known to us as Geronimo. The mexicans killed his family that day at the camp the indians called Kas-ki-yen. Now we know that the indians attacked and killed the peraltas that where here in Goyathlay's home, what we dont know is why.

Best Wishes
Kurt Painter
Click to expand...

Mr. Painter,

Without having lived in those barbaric times, it's very difficult for us to judge the actions of either side in those events. For the time and place, both sides felt their actions were justified. To say the Apache were peacefully camped and trading, only means they were not in the act of raiding, which included the killing of innocents who were living in peace.

What do you believe the Apache were trading?

Joe Ribaudo
 

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Kurt,
Do you have any evidence that Geronimo ever set foot in the supers, the superstitions were not really the home of Geronimo.

Bill
 

silent hunter said:
Joe I don't care to assume. Therefore I will just say what ever they had another man wanted is what they traded. Joe I was just telling the story I was told and it is fact based. The fact who was guilty has nothing to do with the point. The point is the Indians who where from are own back yard where also in the same town as the peraltas. The very same town Jacob Waltz was in. Do you agree so far? The camp had been there for years before Goyathlay was even born. They had a steady fair trade @ 1 X..........


Best Wishes
Kurt Painter
Click to expand...

Kurt,

I have no problem with your story.

I have a number of Apache accounts of what took place in that attack, including Geronimo's. I will have to take another look at the details when I get home tonight.

Take care,

Joe
 

Bill,

I know you weren't addressing me, but I have done a lot of searching trying to place the Apache in the Superstitions. Other than the Tonto Apache and those that came off San Carlos to find a little excitement and goodies, there is not much out there.

Take care,

Joe
 

Bill The Geronimo referance is fact. That was said to be the reason he become the killer he was. I didnt say geronimo was here I said the apache Indians from here had a camp outside sonoran.
 

Kurt,

"That was said to be the reason he become the killer he was."

Is it your opinion that Geronimo was not a killer of Mexicans and Americans before his family was killed?

Thanks,

Joe
 

ha jim , did you ever get the idea your over skilled for this job ....LOL :hello:
 

Evening Joe: the Apache was a raider, not a planter. He raided all of the other Indian tribes from the present Az down to the southern Sonoran border. This commenced in the late 1500's and continued until the middle 1800's when he was forced to live on the reservations.

Geronimo was known as a raider and killer long before he was ever married, or had children. This is how he attained his status.

I lived with the Yaqui for over 5 years. They always considered the Apache a poor cousin and a vastly inferrior fighter. The usual Apache fight was an ambush, then if it succeeded, they would torture the survivors as long as possible to draw out the spiritual energy, otherwise they would withdraw.

The Pimas also considered him an inferior fighter in open combat.

Regardless, I now have many Apache friends, our surveyor is the son of one of the last holdouts in the Mexican sierras.

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

Don Jose,

That's, pretty much, how I understand Apache history and culture.

It was common practice for the Apache to make peace with one town, and raid another. The troops who attacked Geronimo's camp were not from Janos, which is the town they were trading with. They were under the command of General Carrasco, who disregarded the state boundry and stumbled on the Apache camp.

Chihuahua was under another military commander, and he was none to happy with Carrasco's deed. When he reported the massacre to the central government they sided with Carrasco. The event took place around 1850. :read2:

History had many shades of grey in that era. Pretty much the same as it does in every era.

For the record, the Apache traded furs, hides and other wild products. They would also trade plunder from one Mexican town to another. The Mexicans asked no questions, and were happy to receive the stolen loot, no matter where it came from. Pretty much the same way things are today.

Take care,

Joe
 

Hey Joe HAHAHA How many web sites did you have to go thru to find what answer you where looking for. With my own eye's I have seen the ansesters ,And those people who's opinion matters to me already know what I am saying is truth. Keep looking and ill keep finding. The truth is out there and Silence is a privalage!! Good luck to all you out there and one day maybe are paths will meet out there. Remember this topic is diversions dead ends and wild cards.



Best Wishes
Kurt Painter
 

Joe What about the Gold Dr. Thorn was gave?? I think you need to look at the truth sometime before you just open up and say ahh!!!! Dr.Thorns story goes in short. The indians where laughing at the sight of half a man on the back of Dr. Thorns horse. That's because he took so much Gold he filled his insulated underware full.


Best Wishes
Kurt Painter
 

silent hunter said:
Hey Joe HAHAHA How many web sites did you have to go thru to find what answer you where looking for. With my own eye's I have seen the ansesters ,And those people who's opinion matters to me already know what I am saying is truth. Keep looking and ill keep finding. The truth is out there and Silence is a privalage!! Good luck to all you out there and one day maybe are paths will meet out there. Remember this topic is diversions dead ends and wild cards.



Best Wishes
Kurt Painter
Click to expand...

Hi Kurt:
Joe has a pretty good selection of books in his home library.It's more than likely that he is using those for reference,rather than what can be now found online.Very few of us have witnessed living katsinas in the wild,such as you have,let alone heard their stories.Not likely that any of us ever will,unless we happen to find ourselves in the right place at the right time,and are lucky enough to be able to see before being seen,as you were.
Joe has made a couple of observations that raise some questions IMO.The fact that only the Kwevkapaya inhabited the Superstitions,and not in great numbers year round,and that any Apache rarely did anything more than transit the mountains during raiding forays,makes me wonder which group the rumoured "Black Legion" belongs to.Also makes me wonder as to which "sacred sites" they are supposedly keeping watch over.

Regards:SH.
 

It seems all of you chose to believe what you believe. What about the indians who covered all the mines over? Apache Jack ect.ect. How do you think they new where these locations where HAHAHA!!! Are you all chosing what you want to beleive? And disgaurding parts of the history for your bennifit. I have no problem with Joe! But there are more story's to the legend. What about the history of attacks on indian women and children at dismall valley ( the valley of flies)> How could you say there was very few Indians inside the supe's . Wayne you even said they where just passing thru. Again I must say HAHAHA. There are photo's of hundreds of Apache camped all along the salt river area and along the apache trail. I will leave you all to debate your history togather while I hold in my hands the truth!!

Best Wishes
Kurt Painter
 

Hi Kurt:
What you must remember here,is that to the non-native Spanish,other European,and American settlers they were all "Apache".
Usually the army called them "Apache" as well,regardless of the fact that they were not in many cases,and the Yavapai objected to this practice as far as I know.We here often do the same,in order to keep it simple or out of ignorance.Even the four remaining bands of the Yavapai (Tolkapaya,Yavapé,Kwevkapaya,Wipukpa) consider themselves to be separate and independent of both Apache and other Yavapai tribes.
Public and home libraries can only give insight into the history of a given topic,as known to the writer.Sometimes it takes more than reading a book,though.

Regards:SH.
 

People can make arguments against an Apache presence in the Superstition Mountains all day long as long as they are pulling them off the top of their heads and not quoting from reliable references.

Even the earliest maps of the area which include the superstition Mountains call them Apacheria all the way back to Kino's time.


The following quotes concerning the Apache presense in the Superstitions come from Tom Kollenborn's book: "CHRONOLOGICAL HISTORY OF THE SUPERSTITION WILDERNESS".


1450 A.D.
The predatory Apache made their appearance in the region about 1450 A.D.


1864
May 11, 1864, the Rancheria Campaign against the hostile Apaches in the Sierra Supersticiones and Sierra Pinals. The first raids were lead by Brevet Lt. John D. Walkers and his 1st Arizona Volunteers. The Volunteers were made up of farmers and Pima Indians.

1867
May 11, 1867, elements of the U.S. 23rd Infantry encountered hostile Yavapai-Apaches in a Rancheria near Picacho (Weaver's Needle). Several hostile Indians were killed by a surprise attack.



1872
Major John Brown, with elements of the 5th and 10th U.S. Cavalry led campaigns against Apaches in the Superstition Mountain area near Reavis Ranch.


1784
Captain Don Pedro de Allande led several campaigns against the Apaches in the Gila country. Allande planned a mass invasion of the Apacheria.

The 5th United States Cavalry conducted their Pinal Mountain Campaign against the Apaches from March 8 –15, 1874. This campaign included several skirmishes near the Reavis Ranch in the Superstition Wilderness Area.

1879
June 30, 1879, King S. Woolsey died at 3:00 a.m. at the Lyle Ranch, southeast of Phoenix, Arizona Territory. Woolsey had pursued Apaches in the Superstition Mountains.

December 5, 1879, a Mexican reported to the Phoenix Weekly Herald that he and his partner were attack by Indians while prospecting in the Superstition Mountains. The Apaches killed one of the partners.

1893
June 15, 1893, Apache Kid reported seen near the Bark-Criswell Ranch.

1897
September 16, 1897, Apaches from San Carlos scatter cattle near Superstition Mountain.



And Finally... 1907
September 2, 1907, John D. Walker's daughter, Juana Walker, is suing for the Vekol Mine. Walker lead the 1st Arizona Volunteers against the hostile Apache in the Superstition Mountains between 1864-68.


Some will continue to argue that the Apaches were not in the Superstitions, but I don't think they would have been able to convince Captain Don Pedro de Allande, King S. Woolsey, Dr. Walker and the 1st Arizona Volunteers, or the U.S. 23rd Infantry. :dontknow:





And from Tom Kollenborn's book - "A RIDE THROUGH TIME" comes the following quotes concerning the Apache presence in the Superstition Mountains:

Arizona is a fascinating state with diversity in its culture, land, and people. Unique to Arizona is the Superstition Wilderness Area, a land of some 124,120 acres of adventure, tantalizing legends and unbelievable tales. First there were the Salado, then the hostile Apache, followed by Elisha M. Reavis "Hermit of Superstition Mountain," and then came Jacob Waltz of Lost Dutchman Mine fame.



Following the departure of the Salado from the Superstitions, the Apaches inherited the high, mountain fortresses to which they retreated from their raids in the low deserts. The Superstitions provide many high bluffs which can be easily defended and many canyons which make pursuit of a fleeing enemy impossible. This "hit-and-run" tactic proved very successful for the Apaches until the 1800s when cavalry units from the U.S. Army, led by Apache scouts, began to seriously threaten the Indians' mountain stronghold. The Apache era in the Superstitions provides a host of intriguing chronicles which have been the basis for factual history and tall tale alike.


After the American Civil War, soldiers from Fort McDowell, located in the Salt River Valley, chased marauding Apaches into and through the Superstition wilderness. One of these blue-coated soldiers was Major William Brown who, with two companies of 5th Cavalry, combed the Mescal, Pinal, Superstition, Sierra Ancha and Mazatzal ranges in December of 1872.

It was in the Superstitions that Major Brown's forces met and combined with the troops of Captain James Burns. Captain Burns had just returned from a skirmish in the Four Peaks area and had captured two prisoners, one a young Apache boy whom they renamed Mike Burns. Lieutenant John G. Bourke was also on this Apache chase and documented the ensuing fight which came to be known as the Battle of Skull Cave. Skull Cave is located high above what is now Canyon Lake at the north end of the Superstitions. This particular encounter had disastrous results for the Apaches.


Weapons and men for these outposts did not begin to flow immediately, however, but by 1869 men and equipment began to arrive. The old sergeant claimed that a shipment of Colt .44 Dragoon pistols were shipped to Tucson (Fort Lowell) for distribution among the military outposts. He had documents (photostatic copies) which revealed a consignment of Whitneyville-Walker Colt .44 Dragoons being shipped from Fort Lowell via Camp Pinal to Fort McDowell in April of 1871 or 1872. He further claimed these pistols were freighted by pack animals from Camp Pinal through the Superstitions to Fort McDowell. His documents also revealed that this pack train included a packer, a junior grade officer, a sergeant and six enlisted men. There were two mules carrying feed for the Army mounts, two mules packing camp gear and one mule carrying twenty-four Dragoon pistols. Somewhere between Camp Pinal and the Salt River, this pack train was ambushed by hostile Apaches.


One of the legends most often associated with the Apaches in the Superstitions is the story of Dr. Abram Thorne's gold. According to the legend, Dr. Thorne was a medical doctor assigned to Fort McDowell. He saved a young Indian boy who, as it turned out, was the son of an Apache chief. To reward Dr. Thorne for this act of kindness, the Apaches took him on a horseback trip, but, following the instincts of the curious, he peeked from time to time. Thorne later related that they had crossed two rivers, the Verde and the Salt, and wound their way into the mountains until they reached a point at which the peeking Thorne saw a pointed peak. The Apaches then filled his saddlebags with gold and returned him to Fort McDowell. In actuality, military records of Fort McDowell do not list a Dr. Thorne as ever having been assigned to that post or even in the Army. The Thorne story, however, has become well known through the years and has been recounted in many books written on the Superstitions.


All that now remains of the early Indian groups who once inhabited the Superstitions are the dwellings, petroglyphs and burial grounds which provide the evidence for anthropologists and archeologists to piece together the history of these people. Because of their marauding ways, all the Apaches left behind in the Superstitions are stories of bloody encounters with everyone else who ventured into the area and some legends of Apache thunder gods.


Although other Spaniards, such as Father Garces and Juan Bautista de Anza, traveled extensively through what is now Arizona, the desolate region of the Superstitions remained relatively untouched until the early 1800s. It was then that miners from Mexico invaded the Superstition wilderness in search of gold.

The name always associated with the early mining history of the Superstitions is the name Peralta. There are several theories as to just who the Peraltas were and exactly how much gold, if any, they recovered in the Superstition Mountains. The most popular story has Don Miguel Peralta, a wealthy miner and land owner from northern Mexico, initiating gold mining expeditions into the Superstitions in 1847-48. Several trips were made, and vast quantities of gold were returned to Mexico. The Apaches, however, became irritated with these uninvited "guests" in their mountain sanctuary. This resulted in the famed episode at Massacre Grounds, located at the western end of the mountains. Here, according to legend, the Peralta-led mining expedition was exterminated. At least one Peralta survived, however, and returned to Mexico with maps to the gold mines and a tale of terror.


This story of the Peraltas in the Superstitions is the basis for many of the later expeditions which have ventured into the Superstitions to search for gold. Glenn Magill, a private investigator from Oklahoma, traced the ancestry of the Peralta family to the town of Arizpe in Mexico. In an interview with Maria Peralta, Magill discovered that "the grandfather of her husband had been named Don Miguel Peralta. And his father, who was named Don Miguel Peralta also, had been killed in Arizona by the Apaches, along with several of his sons. They were miners also."'



Best,

Jim
 

Some Hiker history is at best a forked tounge. My point of this post was to inject the fact there was a "interstate" (a trail) from mexico to the valley of the sun and Indians traded with the mexicans in Sonoran. We can debate all day!!! But the facts are stated above. (1) The trail from sonoran to the valley of the sun was a very used trail. (2) Indians did trade during in the mid 1800's with the mexicans from sonoran.

Best Wishes
Kurt Painter
 

Jim,

I know that I don't dispute Native American presence in the Superstitions, but I think Wayne's point is a good one in that "apache" may very well have become a universal term among non Native Americans during some of those time periods.

Whenever cattle theft, killings, attacks, etc... by Native Americans were noted, it's quite likely the word "apache" was applied no matter what the actual tribe involved was.

I truly believe there are sacred spiritual places in those mountains that Native Americans of one tribe or another have a great deal of respect for. Some may be burial grounds, some battle sites, and some just areas they have a special connection with their ancestors and/or spirits.

I struggle with whether there are a number of gold mines or treasure sites in the Superstitions that Native Americans know about that still contain their treasures. As generations die and new ones take over, I'm sure there are some who don't believe in the "old ways" and would exploit those sites if at all possible to better themselves or their familes - human nature alone makes me wonder how many of those non-spiritual "treasures" would have been removed or relocated over time.
 

cactusjumper said:
Bill,

I know you weren't addressing me, but I have done a lot of searching trying to place the Apache in the Superstitions.
Take care,

Joe
Click to expand...

Paul/Wayne,

I know I came into this discussion a little late, but it took me a while to go through my references and gather the needed information to reply to Joe's post (above) that started the discussion down the path of Apache presence (or not) in the Superstitions.

I guess I should have included the above quote in my post above so everyone would have known where I was coming from. (Just trying to help Joe place the Apache in the Superstitions) I must have gotten caught up in the "moment" there. :tongue3:

Best,

Jim
 

silent hunter said:
Some Hiker history is at best a forked tounge. My point of this post was to inject the fact there was a "interstate" (a trail) from mexico to the valley of the sun and Indians traded with the mexicans in Sonoran. We can debate all day!!! But the facts are stated above. (1) The trail from sonoran to the valley of the sun was a very used trail. (2) Indians did trade during in the mid 1800's with the mexicans from sonoran.

Best Wishes
Kurt Painter
Click to expand...


I see little to disagree in any of what has been offered.I have no doubt that what we know of the entire history of the Superstitions is woefully inadequate.The trail from the valley,both north and south is well known and,I'm sure predates the Apache by hundreds of years,perhaps thousands.When they did arrive on the scene,it appears that the Apache recognized an ample opportunity to ply the skills attained as nomadic hunter-gatherers to raiding and warfare.As such,and considering that their home bases were located primarily to the east of Pimeria,it is probable that Apache were responsible for most of the depredations that occurred,especially those that occurred after the defeat of the Yavapai (Kwevkapaya,specifically) and Tonto at Skeleton Cave and Turret Peak.It is also probable that if the Apache were, indeed responsible for many of the raids and battles in the Phoenix area,that they used the Superstition Range as a base of operations occasionally.

Regards:SH.

Jim: good to see you looking in.
sometimes what isn't said,is more important than what is being said.
 

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