Did Waltz really have a rich mine?

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

Nice post but, as you know, I have never believed the story of Waltz's big ore shipments. First, Wells Fargo only shipped gold and silver bullion, coins and cash until the railroads came into Arizona. Beyond that, the U.S. Mints only took refined ore for conversion to coins. There was never a U.S. Mint in Sacramento, which is where the story says the "ore" was shipped. No one has ever been able to find the documents that a few people have sworn they saw.

It's now known that Wells Fargo records do exist for the "old west time period". On the other hand, they only started keeping records of gold shipments in Arizona after a certain date.

On the other hand, you could be right.

Take care,

Joe

Well my source for Wells Fargo having NO records of any kind for the 'old west' period was the same fellow you talked to. But on another point, while there is no US mint in Sacramento, this could very easily be a point of error that got into the story by garbling. Unless you insist that every single point must be taken absolutely literally, in which case then of course the story is false, because there was no mint in Sacramento. There were however smelters operating there, and that actually acted as agents for the US mint by buying gold and silver ore and processing it.

As to those "huge" shipments, who said they were huge? It could have been several smaller shipments, could it not? Hence the mention in that letter about "receipts" plural, not a single receipt for one huge shipment. In fact one witnessed sale of ore by Waltz which occurred in Tucson, was only one mule load, which he sold for $600. A fair sum of money for that place and time, but how much ore would be loaded on a single mule? How much ore do you suppose Waltz would have been packing out from the mine, on each visit? Tons? So really unless you want to take the stance that it was impossible for a miner in Arizona to have shipped ore to Sacramento in the 1860-1890 period via stage freight, and that all of the personal papers of the Petrasches have been found and examined, it is not 100% proven that Waltz made no shipments.

Hmm for that matter we do not know that the Petrasches actually had the receipts, just that they saw them, so these receipts (if they still exist) may be in some private collection, and not likely to be made public.

For the record, while these are indeed treasure LEGENDS, nearly all legends have a basis in truth. The truth does not always match the legend on every single point, due to numerous causes, from garbling in the re-telling, to deliberate falsehoods being added to the original story and of course the mixing of different un-related legends. You are certainly free and welcome to believe anything you wish or disbelieve anything you wish, and I was one of those people that certainly believed I had seen a record of Waltz shipping ore but I could have been mistaken by having seen it described in Terry's atlas. On the other hand, how would you feel if someone were to announce tomorrow, that he or she owns the shipping receipts and displays them for the public? Would you announce that you could have been mistaken in making a sweeping statement?

Looking forward to seeing you, HOPE that things will work out so that we can spend a little time with you. I will write you an EM some time soon, try to catch up on all the latest news.

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Agony and Death on a Gold Rush Steamer: The Disastrous Sinking of the Side-Wheeler Yankee Blade - Grab it through Amazon!

[Real of Tayopa]

Oro, why are you even playing around with the LDM when you have that enormous 'Bridal Chamber' down south ?

​

 

[cactusjumper]

Well my source for Wells Fargo having NO records of any kind for the 'old west' period was the same fellow you talked to. But on another point, while there is no US mint in Sacramento, this could very easily be a point of error that got into the story by garbling. Unless you insist that every single point must be taken absolutely literally, in which case then of course the story is false, because there was no mint in Sacramento. There were however smelters operating there, and that actually acted as agents for the US mint by buying gold and silver ore and processing it.

As to those "huge" shipments, who said they were huge? It could have been several smaller shipments, could it not? Hence the mention in that letter about "receipts" plural, not a single receipt for one huge shipment. In fact one witnessed sale of ore by Waltz which occurred in Tucson, was only one mule load, which he sold for $600. A fair sum of money for that place and time, but how much ore would be loaded on a single mule? How much ore do you suppose Waltz would have been packing out from the mine, on each visit? Tons? So really unless you want to take the stance that it was impossible for a miner in Arizona to have shipped ore to Sacramento in the 1860-1890 period via stage freight, and that all of the personal papers of the Petrasches have been found and examined, it is not 100% proven that Waltz made no shipments.

Hmm for that matter we do not know that the Petrasches actually had the receipts, just that they saw them, so these receipts (if they still exist) may be in some private collection, and not likely to be made public.

For the record, while these are indeed treasure LEGENDS, nearly all legends have a basis in truth. The truth does not always match the legend on every single point, due to numerous causes, from garbling in the re-telling, to deliberate falsehoods being added to the original story and of course the mixing of different un-related legends. You are certainly free and welcome to believe anything you wish or disbelieve anything you wish, and I was one of those people that certainly believed I had seen a record of Waltz shipping ore but I could have been mistaken by having seen it described in Terry's atlas. On the other hand, how would you feel if someone were to announce tomorrow, that he or she owns the shipping receipts and displays them for the public? Would you announce that you could have been mistaken in making a sweeping statement?

Looking forward to seeing you, HOPE that things will work out so that we can spend a little time with you. I will write you an EM some time soon, try to catch up on all the latest news.

Roy,

One of the reasons Wells Fargo didn't ship ore, was because of its bulk and weight. Any gold or silver producing area of the country had mills to refine those ores down to, more easily handled, bullion or gold dust. Why would anyone pay to ship worthless rock from Arizona to Sacramento? That makes no sense to me. Not having been there, I could very well be wrong.

Really fine researchers have been seeking those records of ore shipments for decades. Even with our modern-day methods of communication and a burning desire to see such documents, no one has produced a single document for Waltz shipping gold......anywhere, that could be authenticated by experts in the field.

Even to our unqualified eyes, the one document that has ever been produced was deemed a fraud, almost from the moment a photocopy was produced. You would think someone, somewhere, would dig something up......so to speak.

I'm a firm believer in boots on the ground, along with extensive historical research. Without those two important elements, Troy would still be simply a legend.

Gold ore shipments to the tune of $240,000 , or so, did not take place without leaving some kind of paper trail. It seems likely that those who have claimed to have seen those documents, with their own eyes, may have been guilty of a little prevarication. If it were true, someone would have found them since then. It's not like there was no interest, or no one was looking.

I have recently found a statement that claimed there were documents, believed non-existent or to have been destroyed in the San Francisco earthquake/fire. I still research Wells Fargo history on an infrequent basis. I will have to look up the reference.

Take care,

Joe

 

[azdave35]

Roy,

One of the reasons Wells Fargo didn't ship ore, was because of its bulk and weight. Any gold or silver producing area of the country had mills to refine those ores down to, more easily handled, bullion or gold dust. Why would anyone pay to ship worthless rock from Arizona to Sacramento? That makes no sense to me. Not having been there, I could very well be wrong.

Really fine researchers have been seeking those records of ore shipments for decades. Even with our modern-day methods of communication and a burning desire to see such documents, no one has produced a single document for Waltz shipping gold......anywhere, that could be authenticated by experts in the field.

Even to our unqualified eyes, the one document that has ever been produced was deemed a fraud, almost from the moment a photocopy was produced. You would think someone, somewhere, would dig something up......so to speak.

I'm a firm believer in boots on the ground, along with extensive historical research. Without those two important elements, Troy would still be simply a legend.

Gold ore shipments to the tune of $240,000 , or so, did not take place without leaving some kind of paper trail. It seems likely that those who have claimed to have seen those documents, with their own eyes, may have been guilty of a little prevarication. If it were true, someone would have found them since then. It's not like there was no interest, or no one was looking.

I have recently found a statement that claimed there were documents, believed non-existent or to have been destroyed in the San Francisco earthquake/fire. I still research Wells Fargo history on an infrequent basis. I will have to look up the reference.

Take care,

Joe

there is no way that a quarter million dollar gold shipment took place by an individual and go unnoticed or unrecorded...that would be equivalent to 10 million in todays market...i guarantee the tax man wouldn't miss that opportunity ..if he cashed in that much gold there would be tax records...and if he cashed in that much gold he wouldn't live in squaller the way he did.....a 10 million dollar gold shipment would have influenced the entire economy of arizona..waltz did not cash in a 1/4 million in gold and that's all there is to it..there is enough evidence to support him having gold and possibly a mine ..but 10 million..i dont think so

 

[Azquester]

Roy,

One of the reasons Wells Fargo didn't ship ore, was because of its bulk and weight. Any gold or silver producing area of the country had mills to refine those ores down to, more easily handled, bullion or gold dust. Why would anyone pay to ship worthless rock from Arizona to Sacramento? That makes no sense to me. Not having been there, I could very well be wrong.

Really fine researchers have been seeking those records of ore shipments for decades. Even with our modern-day methods of communication and a burning desire to see such documents, no one has produced a single document for Waltz shipping gold......anywhere, that could be authenticated by experts in the field.

Even to our unqualified eyes, the one document that has ever been produced was deemed a fraud, almost from the moment a photocopy was produced. You would think someone, somewhere, would dig something up......so to speak.

I'm a firm believer in boots on the ground, along with extensive historical research. Without those two important elements, Troy would still be simply a legend.

Gold ore shipments to the tune of $240,000 , or so, did not take place without leaving some kind of paper trail. It seems likely that those who have claimed to have seen those documents, with their own eyes, may have been guilty of a little prevarication. If it were true, someone would have found them since then. It's not like there was no interest, or no one was looking.

I have recently found a statement that claimed there were documents, believed non-existent or to have been destroyed in the San Francisco earthquake/fire. I still research Wells Fargo history on an infrequent basis. I will have to look up the reference.

Take care,

Joe

What if it was shipped as something else?
Like Fruit Cakes?

He would've been very concerned for his on safety as he didn't want anyone to know about his mine. It would've been about 350 pounds of gold a lot of weight back then to ship.

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos;

AZDave - there was no income tax in Waltz's time, so nothing to be concerned about how much income he had. As for the reporting, as you know from the US Mint records, they did not retain any information about ANY individual that sold them gold or silver, all you can get are the totals of each, no names at all. What he might have done with so much money we can only guess, but can we rule out that he simply sent it to a family relative to help them? One other thing but again that letter referred to RECEIPTS PLURAL, not ONE big shipment, so could have been two or fifty shipments or 100, we simply can not know unless and until those receipts should be found, and it is possible they are in a private collection. Plus remember that Waltz was an active prospector and just from the time period when he moved to Phoenix until his death, we have a time period of 1868 to 1891, twenty three YEARS of time. So divide that huge shipment over 23 years or more, and it is not such a big shipment after all.

Joe - all well and good, except that we can post newspaper clippings showing various advertisements that they WERE shipping gold, silver and ORES. In fact if you read through the old posts some have already been posted previously. And I am a bit surprised that you would ever say "it would have been found" when that mindset has failed so frequently. Heck I can remember a few examples we pointed out right here on T-net, like the sweeping statement as fact, that Guevavi is "the OLDEST Spanish Mission in Arizona" when in reality the Franciscans had several missions in the NE corner of the state that predate it by seventy years. The "experts" can and do get it wrong, and miss things all the time. I have found a number of shocking facts concerning the Little Bighorn that have been missed by all the "experts" including the best in the country, and even a few items that the same experts have stated do not exist. I can't post them here but they are sure going in the book. Yes there has been plenty of interest, but that proves nothing if none found these receipts. If you recall that letter even pointed out that the Petrasch boys were ready to give up the quest entirely as a wild goose chase, that old man Waltz had been fooling them, UNTIL they saw those shipping receipts.

Here is one example listing the gold and silver that was handled by Wells Fargo for 1878, hopefully it will be readable and includes other states as well:


It states that much of the gold and silver were shipped as "closely sorted ores and concentrates".
You can find it on the Library of Congress site too, it is from the Arizona Sentinel, January 11, 1879, page 4. Wells Fargo absolutely was shipping gold and silver ORES by their freight lines, as costly as it might seem to make it illogical, men were in fact doing it and doing it on a rather large scale. The newspaper clipping even mentions the high freight cost as a factor, for why ores were "CLOSELY SORTED" to try to reduce the waste rock being shipped as much as possible.

 

[sdcfia]

Hola amigos;

AZDave - there was no income tax in Waltz's time, so nothing to be concerned about how much income he had. As for the reporting, as you know from the US Mint records, they did not retain any information about ANY individual that sold them gold or silver, all you can get are the totals of each, no names at all. What he might have done with so much money we can only guess, but can we rule out that he simply sent it to a family relative to help them? One other thing but again that letter referred to RECEIPTS PLURAL, not ONE big shipment, so could have been two or fifty shipments or 100, we simply can not know unless and until those receipts should be found, and it is possible they are in a private collection. Plus remember that Waltz was an active prospector and just from the time period when he moved to Phoenix until his death, we have a time period of 1868 to 1891, twenty three YEARS of time. So divide that huge shipment over 23 years or more, and it is not such a big shipment after all.
....

But, Oro. $240,000 / 20.67 $/oz = 11,611 ounces of gold. In today's money, that's almost $13 million. Split that up anyway you please over 23 years - then it calcs to an equivalent $half million per year, every year. Waltz was a common variety miner/prospector, turned modest chicken farmer. Where did all this money go? Face it: those alleged ore shipment reports just don't add up (no pun intended).

 

[azdave35]

Hola amigos;

AZDave - there was no income tax in Waltz's time, so nothing to be concerned about how much income he had. As for the reporting, as you know from the US Mint records, they did not retain any information about ANY individual that sold them gold or silver, all you can get are the totals of each, no names at all. What he might have done with so much money we can only guess, but can we rule out that he simply sent it to a family relative to help them? One other thing but again that letter referred to RECEIPTS PLURAL, not ONE big shipment, so could have been two or fifty shipments or 100, we simply can not know unless and until those receipts should be found, and it is possible they are in a private collection. Plus remember that Waltz was an active prospector and just from the time period when he moved to Phoenix until his death, we have a time period of 1868 to 1891, twenty three YEARS of time. So divide that huge shipment over 23 years or more, and it is not such a big shipment after all.

Joe - all well and good, except that we can post newspaper clippings showing various advertisements that they WERE shipping gold, silver and ORES. In fact if you read through the old posts some have already been posted previously. And I am a bit surprised that you would ever say "it would have been found" when that mindset has failed so frequently. Heck I can remember a few examples we pointed out right here on T-net, like the sweeping statement as fact, that Guevavi is "the OLDEST Spanish Mission in Arizona" when in reality the Franciscans had several missions in the NE corner of the state that predate it by seventy years. The "experts" can and do get it wrong, and miss things all the time. I have found a number of shocking facts concerning the Little Bighorn that have been missed by all the "experts" including the best in the country, and even a few items that the same experts have stated do not exist. I can't post them here but they are sure going in the book. Yes there has been plenty of interest, but that proves nothing if none found these receipts. If you recall that letter even pointed out that the Petrasch boys were ready to give up the quest entirely as a wild goose chase, that old man Waltz had been fooling them, UNTIL they saw those shipping receipts.

Here is one example listing the gold and silver that was handled by Wells Fargo for 1878, hopefully it will be readable and includes other states as well:
View attachment 1362002

It states that much of the gold and silver were shipped as "closely sorted ores and concentrates".
You can find it on the Library of Congress site too, it is from the Arizona Sentinel, January 11, 1879, page 4. Wells Fargo absolutely was shipping gold and silver ORES by their freight lines, as costly as it might seem to make it illogical, men were in fact doing it and doing it on a rather large scale. The newspaper clipping even mentions the high freight cost as a factor, for why ores were "CLOSELY SORTED" to try to reduce the waste rock being shipped as much as possible.

roy..income tax or not...there was and always will be a tax man..there is no way and i mean no way that waltz or anyone else filtered 10-13 million dollars into the phoenix economy and it went unnoticed..the newspapers would have been writing about waltz every day..i'm afraid you will never convince me or anyone else that waltz had anywhere near that...matter of fact i doubt if any one man on the entire planet had 10 million dollars..even if we say waltz only had $100,000 he would have been a celebrity....i'm convinced waltz had a source of gold in the mountains but it wasnt as everyone envisions ...

 

[Oroblanco]

roy..income tax or not...there was and always will be a tax man..there is no way and i mean no way that waltz or anyone else filtered 10-13 million dollars into the phoenix economy and it went unnoticed..the newspapers would have been writing about waltz every day..i'm afraid you will never convince me or anyone else that waltz had anywhere near that...matter of fact i doubt if any one man on the entire planet had 10 million dollars..even if we say waltz only had $100,000 he would have been a celebrity....i'm convinced waltz had a source of gold in the mountains but it wasnt as everyone envisions ...

Show me where any income tax man was involved in Arizona in the time period prior to 1891.

Who said Waltz had "ten million dollars"? I have never said that. In fact I do NOT know how much he got out of the mine, and neither do you.

I don't have the copy of the letter mentioning it, but it may have said "three quarters of a million" or "a quarter of a million" it did not say a million. Spread over 23 years time, certainly more than one shipment, it is not SO earth-shattering. Plus, keep in mind that SOMETHING DID make a 'ripple' in Phoenix and Florence about Jacob Waltz having a rich gold mine. Hence we are here still discussing it over 100 years later.

SDCFIA wrote

But, Oro. $240,000 / 20.67 $/oz = 11,611 ounces of gold. In today's money, that's almost $13 million. Split that up anyway you please over 23 years - then it calcs to an equivalent $half million per year, every year. Waltz was a common variety miner/prospector, turned modest chicken farmer. Where did all this money go? Face it: those alleged ore shipment reports just don't add up (no pun intended).

Interesting math and conversion you have there. See my reply to AZDave - I can't recall now whether it was a quarter million or three quarters of a million. Converting it into modern values, does not make Waltz have a HALF MILLION DOLLARS PER YEAR. At the 3/4 million TOTAL dollar value, it only works out to $32,600 a year. Not such a whopping fortune. And it DID make a "splash" in several places, from Florence to Tucson to Phoenix, for we are still discussing it 120+ years later. The shipment receipts MAY not exist, but I do not think it is safe to make any sweeping statements that they never existed. After all, something convinced the Petrasch boys to continue their quest, after they had gotten discouraged, Pete continued for the remainder of his life. You do not know what may turn up tomorrow. Just look at all the information that only recently came to light concerning the Peralta stones.

 

[azdave35]

Show me where any income tax man was involved in Arizona in the time period prior to 1891.

Who said Waltz had "ten million dollars"? I have never said that. In fact I do NOT know how much he got out of the mine, and neither do you.

I don't have the copy of the letter mentioning it, but it may have said "three quarters of a million" or "a quarter of a million" it did not say a million. Spread over 23 years time, certainly more than one shipment, it is not SO earth-shattering. Plus, keep in mind that SOMETHING DID make a 'ripple' in Phoenix and Florence about Jacob Waltz having a rich gold mine. Hence we are here still discussing it over 100 years later.

SDCFIA wrote


Interesting math and conversion you have there. See my reply to AZDave - I can't recall now whether it was a quarter million or three quarters of a million. Converting it into modern values, does not make Waltz have a HALF MILLION DOLLARS PER YEAR. At the 3/4 million TOTAL dollar value, it only works out to $32,600 a year. Not such a whopping fortune. And it DID make a "splash" in several places, from Florence to Tucson to Phoenix, for we are still discussing it 120+ years later. The shipment receipts MAY not exist, but I do not think it is safe to make any sweeping statements that they never existed. After all, something convinced the Petrasch boys to continue their quest, after they had gotten discouraged, Pete continued for the remainder of his life. You do not know what may turn up tomorrow. Just look at all the information that only recently came to light concerning the Peralta stones.

roy.....you know as well as i do....if the feds smelled that much money coming from one man they would have figured a way to get their cut...lol...i dont think the burden of proof is on us to prove waltz didn't have 1/4 million in gold...it falls on someone to prove he did....and in 130 years nobody has ever found a shred of proof he had squat..except what he died with....as i said before..i'm not doubting that he had a source of gold...I'm just saying he didn't cash in that much...my source says he left most of it at the mine and brought out what he needed to live on...and he didnt have to mine it...the ore was already mined and stashed in the tunnel....most accounts say he when he went in the mountains he wasn't in there long.....couple days maybe...anyone that has ever done any hard rock mining knows it is very hard and time consuming work..it would take a man alone a couple weeks to mine a ton of ore with simple hand tools

 

[audigger53]

Heck, I need or someone needs to go back through the Arizona Republic's back papers. Either the original 1948 headline paper on the guy finding the 2 trenches of processed gold ore in 8 inch leather bags, one trench 50 feet the other 70 feet, as per the article that was worth $26 Million Dollars in 1948. If I have time on this trip in Oct, I will go there and pay their fee to get a copy. If they don't have it anymore then I'll go through the ones from Sept, 1963 to March 1964 for when it was reprinted as a "Filler" for the extradition of the guy from Hawaii that killed his "boyhood friend", over a 2 Lb. nugget of Iron Pyrite(Fools Gold). The second printing is what I read while living in Florence as a Senior in HS. Also got more on the killing story from our neighbor talking with my Dad back then. Our Neighbor was the then Sherriff of Pinal County, Coy DeArmand. He was living at 504 Poston Drive and we lived on the corner at 502 Poston drive. Sorry I can't pin down the date for the reprint better. I know it was the fall or winter of 1963-64.

 

[audigger53]

BTW the gold was found in Masacure Canyon. 2 trips of the Peraltas, 2 masacures. None of the gold was missing from the trenches, so it was NOT the cache for Waltz.

 

[cactusjumper]

What if it was shipped as something else?
Like Fruit Cakes?

He would've been very concerned for his on safety as he didn't want anyone to know about his mine. It would've been about 350 pounds of gold a lot of weight back then to ship.

Roy,

The problem with the shipments story, is that it's fiction from start to finish.

First, U.S. Mints did not take ore, only bullion. Second, there was never a U.S. Mint in Sacramento. Third, the alleged document has never been produced for authentication, despite many well qualified researchers looking for it.

During the era that Waltz would have been shipping his ore, Wells Fargo was hiring out all freight to small freight companies in the state. They did not keep records. When Wells Fargo purchased bullion or gold dust from prospectors/miners, they first assayed the gold for purity, and purchased the results....minus shipping costs. Beyond that, I believe there were U.S. Mints much closer to Arizona than Northern California. Wells Fargo would not have shipped their gold so far. I just find the whole story full of holes.......always have.

Others with more mental abilities than I, have thought otherwise. They could be right.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Hal Croves]

roy.....you know as well as i do....if the feds smelled that much money coming from one man they would have figured a way to get their cut...lol...i dont think the burden of proof is on us to prove waltz didn't have 1/4 million in gold...it falls on someone to prove he did....and in 130 years nobody has ever found a shred of proof he had squat..except what he died with....as i said before..i'm not doubting that he had a source of gold...I'm just saying he didn't cash in that much...my source says he left most of it at the mine and brought out what he needed to live on...and he didnt have to mine it...the ore was already mined and stashed in the tunnel....most accounts say he when he went in the mountains he wasn't in there long.....couple days maybe...anyone that has ever done any hard rock mining knows it is very hard and time consuming work..it would take a man alone a couple weeks to mine a ton of ore with simple hand tools

Sorry if this is a dumb question.
Regarding the matchbox... is it possible to determine how rich the ore is without destroying the thing. Is a visual assay possible and if so, accurate?

 

[Carl995]

there is no way that a quarter million dollar gold shipment took place by an individual and go unnoticed or unrecorded...that would be equivalent to 10 million in todays market...i guarantee the tax man wouldn't miss that opportunity ..if he cashed in that much gold there would be tax records...and if he cashed in that much gold he wouldn't live in squaller the way he did.....a 10 million dollar gold shipment would have influenced the entire economy of arizona..waltz did not cash in a 1/4 million in gold and that's all there is to it..there is enough evidence to support him having gold and possibly a mine ..but 10 million..i dont think so

but what about the beer?

 

[azdave35]

Sorry if this is a dumb question.
Regarding the matchbox... is it possible to determine how rich the ore is without destroying the thing. Is a visual assay possible and if so, accurate?

yes..an eyeball assay is possible....not totally accurate but better than nothing

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

The problem with the shipments story, is that it's fiction from start to finish.

Another sweeping statement. Can you prove that assertion?

Cactusjumper also wrote

First, U.S. Mints did not take ore, only bullion. Second, there was never a U.S. Mint in Sacramento. Third, the alleged document has never been produced for authentication, despite man well qualified researchers looking for it.

During the era that Waltz would have been shipping his ore, Wells Fargo was hiring out all freight to small freight companies in the state. They did not keep records. When Wells Fargo purchased bullion or gold dust from prospectors/miners, they first assayed the gold for purity, and purchased the results....minus shipping costs. Beyond that, I believe there were U.S. Mints much closer to Arizona than Northern California. Wells Fargo would not have shipped their gold so far. I just find the whole story full of holes.......always have.

Others with more mental abilities than I, have thought otherwise. They could be right.

Take care,

Joe

Ores were generally shipped to smelters. Smelters refined the product which was then sold to the US Mint. There were smelters operating in Sacramento in Waltz's time period. Just cruise through the AZ newspapers available online at either the library of congress site or the AZ state archive site, there are quite a few ads for it. As for whether Wells Fargo was shipping through sub-contractors, that would still count as being shipped by Wells Fargo and the receipts certainly would be. We have even posted photos of a shipment of silver bars in the Tucson Wells Fargo office on this forum some time ago. It would be a waste of my time to re-post again. And how far away WOULD a miner in Arizona ship his ore in the late 1860s, 1870s or 1880s? Would you believe that some sent it to Philadelphia, PA, El Paso, Texas, one even to Germany? The freight would have been enormous, but it was done.

Hal - I agree with AZ Dave, you can do a visual 'assay' or guess-timate, and going out on a limb here I would guess the famous matchbox to be 20% gold. I suppose that a kind of visual assay could be done using a high density photograph and counting how many 'dots' of the image were gold, to get a surface percentage too.

 

[Hal Croves]

yes..an eyeball assay is possible....not totally accurate but better than nothing

Cheers azdave35.

 

[Azquester]

400 regular lbs of gold to the ton(20%). = 486 troy pounds gold

12 troy ounces per pound= $20 an ounce x12 troy ounces per pound = $240x486 troy lbs per ton =$116,640 per ton.

It would take a lot of weight for shipping any large amount of money in gold back then.

Of course that's the short ton of 2000 lbs. (USA) A long ton is 2250 lbs. (UK)

 

[audigger53]

400 regular lbs of gold to the ton(20%). = 486 troy pounds gold

12 troy ounces per pound= $20 an ounce x12 troy ounces per pound = $240x486 troy lbs per ton =$116,640 per ton.

It would take a lot of weight for shipping any large amount of money in gold back then.

Of course that's the short ton of 2000 lbs. (USA) A long ton is 2250 lbs. (UK)

Just to add to the confusion. LOL
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/...jE3OTNfMQRzZWMDc2M-?qid=20111019155957AAIDGdY
1 lb(troy) = 0.822857 lb
1 lb = 1.21527 lb(troy)
1 troy ounce is 31.1 grams, 1 avoirdupois ounce is 28.35 grams
1 troy pound is 373.24 grams, 1 avoirdupois pound is 453.49 grams
For money talk Troy. Weight is normally thought of as avoirdupois (glad they spelled it for me, water weight)
From memory (failible) 14.58 Oz Troy for a pound of avoirdupois.
I don't think in Troy weight normally, so I needed to figure out the conversion between them so I could figure out how much I would be looking at if I found any of the ones we were looking for, in weight versus cash.